Talk:Heart of Darkness/Archive 2

Capt. Luke Strotz
I don't think there ever was a Capt Luke Strotz. And even if there was, I don't think his pantomine in Murmansk is relevant. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Illawarra_Steam_Navigation_Company —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mauriciomoura (talk • contribs) 20:01, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for removing it, I think it was a wise decision. Gary King ( talk ) 20:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Whited sepulchre and other analyses in Motifs and Themes sections
I'm pretty sure this is an allusion to Jesus' use of the metaphor to describe certain religious authorities who outwardly followed the letter of the law, but abandoned its greater purpose. Presumably the original audience would have known this reference. I would have changed it, but the particular verse eludes me for now.

On a somewhat related note, I have some more general criticism of the conclusions offered in the Motifs and Themes section. I'm, not an expert in this, but it seems to me that the conclusions are worded rather strongly for the lack of citations. I have particular problems with the "whited sepulchre" remarks and the anachronistic Freudian analysis. It all comes across to me as an overeager book report. Perhaps a more cautious description of the symbolism would be in order, but alas, I lack the familiarity with the subjects to make a cohesive replacement myself.129.137.150.164 (talk) 11:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Copied and pasted
Most of this article has been copied and pasted from SparkNotes. In my opinion, the article should keep the same ideas, but we should at least reword how we state them.

141.151.24.248 (talk) 19:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/heart/summary.html, http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/heart/themes.html Infringing material has been replaced with earlier text from the article's history and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Broken link
The feature by Failure Magazine, quoted in relation to the reaction to Achebe's famous lecture, is no longer available at this address. Crusoe (talk) 15:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Blood Diamond
Incluing the claim that Conrad was influenced by this movie is clearly mischievous and the reference should be removed. Ozi Daybreak (talk) 23:24, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Allegra with Heart of Darkness.
The Allegorical Symbolism found within Heart of Darkness is quite striking. Two examples. Where Marlo enters the Company Offices for his Medical and Induction. On each side of a door he enters two women sit knitting. Symbolic of The Fates weaving the Future. In another scene, Marlow enters a Hut and finds a painting of a beautiful woman holding a shining lamp. Lucifer, the Light Bearer, perhaps?. There are dozens of others to be found.Johnwrd (talk) 01:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Apocalypse Now
Never read heart of darkenss, but the plot as described in the article, seems to sound an awful lot like apocalypse now... or am i just imagining it? Answers on the back of a postcard please. Darigan (talk) 16:28, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Dude, Apocalypse Now was based directly on Heart of Darkness! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.47.189 (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Removed from intro
I have removed this from the introduction: ** It should be noted from a structuralist point of view that Marlow is also the name of a town situated on the Thames further upstream from London.'' It is in no way made clear why this should be significant. The introduction should not contain unexplained points of doubtful relevance. If there is a need to include this in the article, it should be explained and placed in a meaningful context. Kosebamse (talk) 08:14, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

In Our Time
Rich Farmbrough, 03:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC).


 * There is also a Lux Radio Theater presentation of Heart of Darkness, with Brian Aherne as Marlow. Probably from the 1950s. I don't know the date on which it was first broadcast, so I hesitate to enter it in the adaptations section. BubbleDine (talk) 00:56, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Setting never given directly
Perhaps it should be made clear that in the book, Congo or Belgium is never directly named, and Africa only once in reference to Marlowe's childhood dreams. --Jvs.cz (talk) 19:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Capt. or Not?
In the caption to the photo of the steamer, Conrad is credited with being its Captain. In the summary of his life, it says he got sick and returned home before he got the chance... Clarification? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.39.142 (talk) 04:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Book Image
Does it occur to anyone else that the current title image is advertising a specific publisher. This is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.221.155.174 (talk) 00:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * FIXED: I uploaded the cover of the 'Blackwood's Magazine' that HOD first appeared in and replaced the image of the arbitrary book cover. Later I'll also add the cover of the first book HOD appeared in ("Youth ...") - Me Squeek (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Does it matter that the Plot Summary many sentences are lifted verbatim from the Spark Notes summary at http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/heart/summary.html ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.77.48.79 (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * What matters more is that the article is flat, boring, and misleading. ABS (talk) 17:06, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * FIXED (I think???) - Replaced Spark Notes summary with an all original summary. But now I fear it might be too long ( as I tried to preserve points of interest ;) - so I might try splitting 'Plot Summary' into two parts > adding "Plot Summary (Short Version)" which might end up being about 2 or 4 paragraphs, and then simply renaming my longer summary "Plot Summary (Long Version)" - hmmm Me Squeek (talk) 03:53, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Ria Press
Why is there a link to their PDF printable edition? I checked it out, and I found a quite remarkable mistake on the first page (the second block of the first chapter repeated 3 times (!)). Why should anyone want to print it? There are also some advertisement on the bottom of EVERY page... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.6.79 (talk) 21:49, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

External Links: PDF from Ria Press Full of Errors
I downloaded the PDF for use in my classroom, but its not very high quality (spelling errors, typos, repeated phrases), and the link ought to be removed. Read the first three paragraphs for an idea of what I'm talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.44.236.62 (talk) 14:57, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Just to be clear, you're a teacher, and the best way that you could think to create a worksheet on 'Heart of Darkness' was to go to the Wikipedia page and print out the first PDF link you saw? I don't think the issue here is with Wikipedia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.23.40.34 (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Straw Man Argument
It's not good that the defenders of "Heart of Darkness" are not quoted, but rather paraphrased by an obviously biased Achebe, who is the primary representative of the opposing viewpoint. I'm referring to this quote: "How dare you upset everything we have taught, everything we teach? Heart of Darkness is the most widely taught text in the university in this country. So how dare you say it's different?" It's not even clear in the article that this quote is Achebe's and not some idiot professor who literally turned red and stomped his foot when he heard Achebe's lecture.

Also is there nothing about the reception of this book before Achebe that's interesting enough to comment on? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.208.24.82 (talk) 18:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


 * First of all, that is not a straw man argument. It is a hearsay argument.  Completely different fallacies.  Second, that "reception" section seems to largely be a place to put "There are serious accusations of racism directed at this book" in a place where the Conrad defenders (like the teacher who was presumably paraphrased by Achebe) won't immediately remove them because "You can't say it's racist, it's historical!"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.23.40.34 (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

hyphen
- Not sure this is correct: "The passage of time and the darkening sky during the fictitious narrative-within-the-narrative parallel the atmosphere of the story." The hyphenated phrase is not being used as an adjective so it shouldn't be hyphenated. Right?


 * "within the narrative" is acting as an adjective modifying "narrative". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.23.40.34 (talk) 20:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Star Trek Into Darkness is an adaptation of this story to the Star Trek universe.
Not only does the title allude to the story, but a quick reading of the synopsis, or viewing of the film, will make you realise this is actually an adaptation of the story to the Trek universe, and with the villian, Kurtz, being changed, or adapted into to the classic Star Trek villian of Khan Noonien Singh. So this is why I've added it here. Reference obviously the title and plot. External references I'm sure are avalible, but as the movie is very new, could take a while for a really good reference.

If you decide to revert my addition, I likely will agree, but please add your comments here. Then I will save the paragraph until good non-primary references are avalible and sometime later I will end up reinstating it with much better referencing. At this early stage of the films release reliable external sources are naturally hard to come by. Colliric (talk) 15:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * We need a source involved with the production of Into Darkness that explicitly states the film is an adaptation. Otherwise this is synthesis and we shouldn't include it presently. Cheers! Doniago (talk) 13:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with that and am happy that people can see the discussion here on the talk page. It clearly IS an adaptation of the novel to anyone that watches it(shares a similar title, same last word and has pretty much the same plot but only altered for the Star Trek universe), however they indeed have not explicitly stated it at this early stage. It took Disney 10 to 15 years to admit Lion King was an exceptionally loose adaptation of Hamlet. I expect it is likely the same thing will happen here. It can be put here if enough critics note the simularities(as in "Some critics have noted or believe that Star Trek 12 is an adaptation of Heart of Darkness"), but it's pretty hard to find good sources so early on into a film's release. Usually this kind of stuff comes out in either the DVD interviews or Making ofs, Or after much scholary analysis usually in more in depth reviews of the film that are focused on it's origins or impact. That could take years, as it did with Lion King, it was only after a decade did the writers admit they were inspired by Shakespeare, after the story's origins were discussed by scholars, Shakespere fans and obviously Disney experts. Heck this film is even closer to it's source than Lion King was to Hamlet!! lol! The title, and very basic pre-release plot synopsis, similarity has already been noted by many people, but mostly in pre-release materials(hence I mentioned that simularities were noted in my original edit, perhaps I should have provided the sources). When post-release reviews/articles noting the obviously simularities between the plot come out, no doubt it can put here as a "possible adaptation". As yet that has not CLEARLY happened, and if it has, most artistic merit reviews are obscure in a sea of other immediate audience reaction based reviews. Colliric (talk) 02:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Postcolonialism Section
Is it worth mentioning that Edward Said had a pretty high opinion of this book?
 * Sounds like a good idea. Rwood128 (talk) 23:07, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Ideas for Improvement
It may be worth mentioning in the lead section that Heart of Darkness is written in framed narrative and that Marlow is not the original narrator of the story. Also, I think that it would be useful to add to the "Plot summary" section that the Russian man described as a harlequin nearly praised Kurtz, as opposed to only greatly admiring him. This is an important distinction because it shows how influential a character Kurtz was. In this same section, it is unclear from reading the article why Marlow would suggest that Kurtz has gone mad. Perhaps stating that Kurtz continually refused to leave the Congo might clarify this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joanofarc.lannah (talk • contribs) 22:41, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Apocalypse Now Adaptation
The article lists apocalypse now as a adaptation even though the apocalypse now wikipedia page lists it as 'inspired' by Conrad's novella. Considering that the film takes many liberties with the source material, the section on adaptations needs to be reworded also to illustrate that the film is a loose adaptation and changed more than just the setting. FruitDefence (talk) 22:11, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Organization of the article and Wikipedia Manual of Style
This Talk page contains quite a few suggestions for improvement, yet it looks like editors of HoD are not familiar with the format an encyclopedic article for a novel should adhere to. Here you can see what sections this article should contain: Manual of Style/Novels. CheersMackyBeth (talk) 12:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Radio and stage plays
There was a Lux Radio Theatre presentation on NBC radio in the 1950s, with Brian Aherne as Marlow. 71.179.12.173 (talk) 05:15, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Permission to add external link?
Is it OK for me to add a link to the External Links section to go to the free and open-source ebook versions of this novel at the Standard Ebooks project (https://standardebooks.org)? I was rapped over the knuckles recently about adding such a link to the Wikipedia page for another book.

This would be the link:
 * Heart of Darkness at the Standard Ebooks site.

The Standard Ebook project, in its own words: "...is a volunteer driven, not-for-profit project that produces new editions of public domain ebooks that are lovingly formatted, open source, and free." I am one of their volunteer producers.

It seems to me that this proposed link would be a valuable resource for readers of the Wikimedia page on this novel, on a par with Project Gutenberg or Librivox. I have read the External Links guidelines and I do not believe my proposed link is in breach of those guidelines. If not I would be grateful for some further guidance.

Mouldiwarp (talk) 23:27, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Nice find! I feel this would be a good addition to the article, although I'm relatively new, so I don't know the exact policies, but this looks like a worthwhile addition for readers. Shindo Nana talk? 10:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Added it. --Mikaka (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The only hard-core rule should be that Wikipedia does not support copyright infringement by linking to shadowy URLs with unclear legal background. As most legislations on the world give copyright protection to the author and his heirs upto 70 years after his death and Conrad died in 1924, this legal aspect is uncritical in this case. --Gunnar (talk) 17:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Long plot
I don't find the plot too long or overly detailed. Without having read the original piece I spent about 3 min reading the summary and believe that the main content items were retold in a way which allows to understand the basic events. While I fell upon some of the sentences as non-native speaker, I tried to simplify a few expressions. I removed the long plot tag - if anyone disagrees, please start a discussion here what should be shortend. My personal opinion is because of the significance of Conrad's novella, we should allow a rather longer than a shorter (and crippled) summary to understand easier all the following paragraphs that deal with reception, interpretation and adaptation. --Gunnar (talk) 17:41, 9 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Per WP:NOVELPLOT the summary shouldn't exceed 700 words. I was able to do some trims without substantively impacting the quality of the article, IMO, and brought it down to 728. I won't re-insert the tag, but the plot shouldn't be significantly lengthened at this point without a consensus to do so. It would be nice to bring the plot down to within the guideline, but I'm not going to make a fuss over it marginally exceeding the guideline. DonIago (talk) 19:10, 9 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the refresh. "Plot summaries should be concise and an integral part of the article. 400 to 700 words are usually sufficient for a full-length work, although very complex and lengthy novels may need a bit more." In IEC and ISO standards, cf. ISO/IEC Directives Part 2, clause 7 'Verbal forms for expressions of provisions', p. 25ff, there is a differentiation between requirements (shall), recommendations (should), permissions (may) and capabilities (can). The 700 word limit is not a hard requirement for the maximum length, but a soft recommendation which is also following from the rest of the sentence. Compare with guideline. --Gunnar (talk) 20:32, 9 June 2022 (UTC)