Talk:Heaven's Memo Pad

ASCII site entries
I thought it was to be mentioned that the inventory on asciimw.jp is fault. Absolutely every entry on the searcher has a release date of the 10th each month. Probably this was programmed to fix it that way since imprints generally release on the same day each month. But before fusion the release date of Dengeki Bunko was the 25th. If using the full date of first release I don't see reliable using that site, wherever it is verifiable. I photographed my copy of the first volume, 16th edition (latest reprint, under ASCII Media Works) and it says the first edition was 2007 Jan 25th (二〇〇七年一月二十五日　初版発行) http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9761/p1030361t.jpg. That's more reliable.  pmt7ar (talk) 03:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Alice is not a hikikomori
Hi all, I want to delete the reference describing the character of Alice as hikikomori if no one object. Based on the definition of a hikikomori, "Patients are mostly adolescent and young adult men who become recluses in their parents’ homes for months or years. They withdraw from contact with family, rarely have friends, and do not attend school or hold a job."

The character of Alice is far from that description. Although there are similarities to hikikomori such as being young and living alone in a small apartment, first thing, this is a phenomenon that happens to men not women. Also, she is not confine to a small room, but lives in an apartment. Her parents are never mentioned and it is unclear from the story, how she supported herself, unless is through her detective work. She is not anti-social, although she is abrupt in her speech, but she has a good relationship with all her "NEET" assistants. She is not shy and she is quite outspoken and self-assertive. She goes out when necessary to solve her cases or for social occasions--such as when she attended Narumi's sake ritual with Yondaime (episode 2). There is much mystery about her but the term hikikomori is not the right one for her.

Reference:

Teo, Alan R. "A New Form of Social Withdrawal in Japan: a Review of Hikikomori," International Journal of Social Psychiatry March 2010 vol. 56 no. 2 178-185 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

Shutting Themselves In By MAGGIE JONES Published: January 15, 2006 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/magazine/15japanese.html?pagewanted=all

Guariche (talk) 02:37, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * She is a hikikomori in the japanese meaning. That person, Maggie Jones, can have a concept of hikikomori, but that's all. He didn't define the word. For starters, that hikikomoris can't be female or her room can't be other than tiny is absurd. She is described as such in the novel. If I recall correctly, it's explained her means of support (something with Min and the rent of the building). Anyway, I see the character pretty close to the term hikikomori, plus the author and all characters calls her that. pmt7ar (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * In the Japanese medical terminology of this pathology, she doesn't really fit the definition of Hikikomori. I listed the Maggie Jones's article since she quoted from several of the well known psychologists that worked with that phenomena in Japan. The academic article by Alan R. Theo also reviewed the term from the Japanese perspective (unfortunately you need access to an university library account to see it for free, but here is a link to the abstract if that helps to clarify that the definition I am looking at are authoritative and not just something from a newspaper's article. Here is the link to the abstract to Theo's article, http://isp.sagepub.com/content/56/2/178.shortand) Although it is said that this condition mostly affected male, it does affect women but rarely.


 * But still technically Alice doesn't fit into that description as depicted in the anime. I don't have access to the novel so I don't know if there is a big difference between the description found in the book vs the one in the anime. But, if you have access to the novel and can create a footnote that document that it is the decision of the author to describe her as such that will be useful. Otherwise it is confusing having her being called hikikomori but barely acting like one. She definitely act like a hacking genius so I don't have problem with that, but I can't buy her description as hikikomori either. Not without more substantial documentation. If you can provide that or someone can add that, it will make this article stronger and more reliable. Thanks, Guariche (talk) 01:37, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Substantial documentation? This is a work of fiction. It doesn't matter the pathological definition of hikikomori. It's used on the social context and for the japanese someone like Alice is called hikikomori. If not, suppose that in the fiction world of the author that is the behavior of a hikikomori. The anime is just an adaptation, you can't get much from it. It reminds me some argument about that it can't be NEET being paid for detective work. Well, that's how it is written and the character has its own conception of NEET. In the novel the character is addressed as a hikikomori.  pmt7ar (talk) 03:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't ask for "substantial documentation" just documentation to a particular statement where there is an issue, in this case does Alice really fit the description of hikikomori? Just because it is a work of fiction, it doesn't mean you don't need documentation to make the chapter more authoritative. So, in this particular case, using a footnote to reference to the page where she is introduced or described as a hikikomori by the author give more weight to the statement. Otherwise how anyone can verify any editors' statement?


 * Now I don't have access to the novel, just the anime, so whatever description about this character is based on the anime, which as you well stated, is an adaptation to a book. Listening to the anime, when Alice met Narumi [episode 1], she is the one that described herself as a hikikomori, but if you listen closely, she said in a challenging way to Narumi, since she is aware that people see her that way. But, she didn't say, I am a hikikomori, but said something like "You are wondering why a hikikomori is thinking of herself so highly" But, when she described herself to Narumi, she said she is a NEET detective. Actually she used the word NEET with a lot of emphasis. For her the NEET description means more than the hikikomori description.


 * I can go on on this topic but I really want to say this now. You were right to say I shouldn't delete the word hikikomori. Thanks to you I can see that this word is used to describe her by the other characters because she does share some of the characteristic that people associate with hikikomori, in this case, her desire to stay in her apartment and venture seldom to the outside. But that is a far as the definition apply to her. Since, other than that, she differs greatly from hikikomori--she is outspoken, definitely not shy and she is not hiding from the outside world because embarrassment and she described herself as a NEET detective. It can be argued too, that she lived in that small, cold room, because her computers need to be in a cold place so they don't overheat. Something that makes sense for her as a cracker and genius. But, if I am understanding this anime, this show/novel is all about challenging those descriptions and not judging people because the label of hikikomori or NEET, but to try to see people as more than their labels.


 * So, my suggestion for a editorial change in her character description is to say something to this effect: "She is a cracking genius, living in a small, very cold, air-conditioned room with many computers, venturing outside seldom. Because of that, she is described by the others characters as a hikikomori." I know this was a lot of discussion for such a minor change, but I think is better than deleting the whole word first and then realizing I was wrong through our discussion. I will also like to add more to the description about how she really is, "self-confident, outspoken, but socially awkward" I think these adjectives describe her character very well. Let me know if this make sense to you. And again, thank you for sharing with me what you know about the novel. Cordially, Guariche (talk) 02:26, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I think is not good to stick to an arbitrary definition from a sphere completely outside the article. Outside of the social studies scholars, japanese people have an use for that term. Also each case is different, there is a lot of grays. There are several degrees of isolation, from single shyness to total isolation, and in the middle those who seldom go out. But all of them are called hikikomori in society. I can't tell you where exactly its on the novel, I can't reread the 7 volumes I read and find that specific word, but I do recall she being called that dozens of times. But she is introduced as a hikikomori by the author: on the book jacket of volume 1, and on the characters introduction (pages 1~3) of volumes 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. But again, we should not analyse this fiction character in academic terms. If so even Satô from NHK ni youkosou can't be called hikikomori, he goes out too.  pmt7ar  (talk) 03:34, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you for several reasons. I believe the medical definition of hikikomori is relevant to this discussion and character. I was not referring to an arbitrary definition. The definition of hikikomori that I have used in this discussion was taken from both the Hikikomori page in Wikipedia and from current medical literature on the topic, which I referenced earlier. Your comment that everybody in Japan called anyone that stay home and barely leave their home as a hikikomori is presented without documentation to verify that claim. I don't think I am asking too much that if you insist that the author described her that way, then that you footnote that information in the article. You don't need to find every single mention of it in the book. Just the first time is enough.

The reason I started this discussion is because when I followed the link to hikikomori to its Wikipedia article and read it, I have to question why Alice is called or described that way when she doesn't fit the description provided by the article--at least as presented in the anime. But, you are saying that is a matter of perception inside the Japanese culture to perceive Alice that way but you don't offer any verifiable information to corroborate your statement.

Therefore, I don't think that the change I have suggested is unreasonable as a compromise between our two takes on this issue. If you can think of a better wording, I will appreciate it but I don't think her description should read, "She is a hikikomori and a cracking genius." We could also say something like "She is described as a hikikomori and a cracking genius", which I think expressed what you are trying to say to me and I will be happy with that, since it leaves it to the reader or the watcher of the anime to decide if she is or not. But, if you can add the direct reference from the book, that will be better. As the Wikipedia guidelines says, "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." Or we can create a new section called "Differences" to describe any different between the novel and the anime--which is something done in other articles in Wikipedia.

I really will like to find consensus with you regarding this edit, because I don't want to see edits be reverted because we disagree. Can we agree on a different wording that reflect that she is "described" as a hikikomori, not that she "is" a hikikomori? Or maybe create a new section called "Differences" or something like that? Otherwise, if we can't agree on this edit, I will suggest we get a third opinion to resolve our difference, as suggested in the Talk guidelines page. Cordially, Guariche (talk) 00:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't agree because you're taking this very seriously when it isn't needed. I can't prove right now its the socially accepted use, when I was in japan I talked about this novel and everyone described it as a hikikomori loli NEET detective. What's more, I bet everyone in japan knows what hikikomori is, but not 1 on 1000 know the medical definition. (1) In japanese, hikikomori is anyone who secludes from society, or anyone who shut themselves in their rooms. The characters fits with hikikomori at 100%. Plus there is a verb, hikikomoru, which agent noun is hikikomori, and is widely used in everyday japanese. So you can believe me in japan a character like Alice is regarded as hikikomori and counted as part of the social phenomena. (2) If you want to be that serious, then we have to start that this is FICTION. So everything is described, and nothing "is". "she is described as hikikomori and a cracking genius". Then you doubt she's a cracking genius too? If she is "described" as, then everything is described. That's is a fiction. (3) If you do that edit, we should add Narumi "He's described as a 16yo student. He's described living with his sister", or tetsu "He's described being addict to gambling". Do you get my point?. Plus, we should do the same with Tatsuhiro Satô from NHK ni youkoso. He isn't a hikikomori for what you say. (4) In any case, following the Hikikomori article, Hikikomori as the original definition by 厚生労働省, Alice matches it perfectly, we don't know exactly if it passed 6 months or more, but as I recall a conversation between Narumi and Min, she passed several months without stepping out of her room. You're being too strict with an arbitrary (by this I mean a single sphere) definition of a word. Hikikomoris can be female, can be hikikomori in a whole house (not just a room), and definetively can go out. Most but not all lives with their parents. Other hikikomoris go out to shopping or to claim their pension. In the anime they made her too happy, optimist and "moe". If you want to see it by yourself read the novel, auto translate it or wait it to be licensed in english.
 * And I didn't meant to mention each mention of her as hikikomori, I meant its mentioned several times, but I won't read again 300 pages to find the first appearance. And I already did with the summaries. Page 3 of vol 2. I don't agree with that edit because she is described as hikikomori, and if it were real, it will be also a real hikikomori, in the statistical and social definition for sure. And maybe also in that medical definition, but well if women can't be hikikomoris... this novel is all nonsense.  pmt7ar (talk) 01:38, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why it bothers you so much that I am taking this discussion seriously. It is expected for editors in Wikipedia to take editing seriously and not to do it willy-nilly. If nothing else, I am applying the guidelines of writing articles about fiction delineated by Wikipedia, no more, no less. If you check the guidelines, it says:


 * "Articles about fiction, like all Wikipedia articles, should adhere to the real world as their primary frame of reference. The approach is to describe the subject matter from the perspective of the real world, in which the work of fiction and its publication are embedded. It necessitates the use of both primary and secondary information." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28writing_about_fiction%29


 * That is the reason that I am adamant to bring in the discussion the medical definition of hikikomori as well as the social definition that you have referred to. I don't think we are disagreeing that much, but I am a little verbose in my response and for that I apologize. In any case, I do agree with you that my previous suggestion was badly worded and really didn't express what I wanted to say. I rather like my previous suggestion that I guessed you may have missed in my previous reply. Here is what I want to add to the description:


 * "She is a cracking genius, living in a small, very cold, air-conditioned room with many computers, venturing outside seldom. Because of that, the others characters see her as a hikikomori."


 * I think this edit is a good compromise between your point of view and mine. I think what I wrote is factual information about Alice and it doesn't differ from what you have share with me in this discussion. I think it will be also useful to note in her description how her character differs from the novel to the anime adaptation--which is what created my confusion in the first place.


 * My issue regarding the use of hikikomori as an absolute description is that it doesn't differentiate between the medical condition vs. people perception of someone being one just because she stay in the room a lot of time. But, I think it is because what you point out, the anime "made her too happy, optimist and "moe". If we can incorporate that in the character's description it will make the article better--since remember no everybody has access to the novels, but many will have access to the anime. So, can we agree to my new edit suggestion--or can you improve it if the English is not perfect? Again, I really will like to find a consensus with you regarding this issue before I request a third opinion. Thanks you for engaging in this discussion with me. I think we both want to create a good article about this anime/novel, which I think is great. Thanks,Guariche (talk) 19:38, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not because you're being too serious, is that you bring the issue to a seriousness it doesn't deserve. The character does match the description of a hikikomori in all linguistic (noun for ひきこもる), social usage and if we assume the minimum of 6months, the government legal description for that classification. Of all three, why you pick the medical definition which is arbitrary? (and I find absurd from the fact it says women can't hikikomori O_o. One thing is to talk statistically, say that most are men, like with suicides. Other very different is that women CAN'T hikikomori). Japan uses as a statistical criteria for hikikomori "any person", not "men".
 * I can't support the wording "Because of that, the others characters see her as a hikikomori", because I don't recall that being the case. I don't remember she not being it and the issue being just the perception of the other characters. She referred herself as a hikikomori in more than one ocassion (believe me I would quote it if I knew where exactly its written). And is presented as such from outside the novel, like in the summaries, so it's not a perception of the characters but the author portrayed her like that. I added the quotes for that paragraph from the original which I used to translate into the article.
 * What we know is that she IS hikikomori in the meaning of the word, she IS hikikomori in the social usage, and probably IS hikikomori in the legal and statistical definition of that. And we DON'T KNOW if she is or not medically (does that even exist?) a hikikomori, because unfortunately no fiction physician has examined her, so she could be also a pathological hikikomori, nobody knows. The point is, and this is why I think you taking this too seriously to one direction, is that if she IS hikikomori in several usages and uncertain in just one, how do you support that she is NOT a hikikomori? I've just reread the wikipedia article, and she matches the summary, the Definition, and Common traits, so I don't see any discrepances. Just that she is a female and "supposedly" hikikomori is a gender specific disease (?). The article of hikikomori doesn't address it just as a medical condition, why should we do it here?. She MAY not be a medical declared hikikomori (if that even exists), but she IS in all other senses. What's the problem with the current sentence?  pmt7ar (talk) 21:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I want to clarify some things before replying to your question.
 * # I already agreed with you that women—although rarely—can be hikikomori. And that is mentioned in the medical literature.
 * # I am not disagreeing with you regarding Alice being a hikikomori. You were right that I shouldn’t delete that from her description


 * So, I guess my issue with just saying that “She is a hikikomori and a cracking genius” is that it doesn’t account the difference between how she is portrayed in the book vs. anime, which you mentioned earlier. Since the article does mention both the books and the anime, I think it will help to clarify the article to point out the differences. That is something that I have seen done in other Wiki articles, for example Natsume's Book of Friends. There was a discrepancy between the book and the anime in the way they portrayed the main character and here how the editor(s) stated that:


 * “In the anime, he is more cheery and good-natured, while in the manga, he is slightly more dismal and short-tempered. Natsume is described by Yuki Midorikawa as "a boy who is trying to be a kind person."” (with a footnote to the author’s description of the character, Midorikawa, Yuki (January 2010) [2005]. "Afterword". Natsume's Book of Friends, volume 1. San Francisco: Viz Media. p. 195. ISBN 978-1-4215-3243-1.)


 * Could we do something similar for Alice then? I think that will satisfy me better and will account for what I believe are discrepancies of the portrayal of Alice in the anime vis-à-vis a book as you have stated before. If you still have the summaries that describe her as hikikomori, then you should quote that bit because at least that will strengthen the article. But, you don't have to do it right now, you can do it later.


 * That is all. If I have access to the books and knew how to read Japanese I will do it myself, and probably wouldn’t have started this discussion. But, in the meantime, could you consider my suggestion to add a line that states the different between the portrayal of Alice between the book and the anime? I am not saying that it should say that she is not a hikikomori--because as you well argued, she is--but something in the line of what you mentioned before. So this is my suggestion: In the anime, she is “too happy, optimist and "moe,"” while in the books she is [add your description here.] (Not need to add footnote here, unless you want to)


 * But, eventually, it will be good to add references and footnotes to this article to make it stronger, better and reliable. As it is right now it is categorized as a Start, “An article that is developing, but which is quite incomplete and may require further reliable sources.” I will really like that this article eventually is developed to become a GA article (Good Article category) but for that it needs more references. Sorry again for the long reply. Hope this clarify things. Cordially, Guariche (talk) 00:19, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, differences could add to the article, but these are very subtle, usually differences are noted when they are in content and in this case the anime didn't had any notable differences with the novel, except on chronological order. But doing so would fall on WP:OR so I prefer to avoid writing it myself. I did create the article and redacted the characters descriptions too, but translating from the japanese article or from the novel. For example with this discussion I searched and quoted the original extracts from where I translated the Alice description. The wording may change, as its a translation, but its sourced on the novel -it will be necessary to do that on the other characters too-. In this case that difference with the anime was my personal appreciation, writing so will be WP:OR. If we found a reliable source comparing the anime we could add it :S . I already quoted it, added 3 footnotes to the Alice subsection, one describing their physical appareance, other her pajama, teddy bears and Dr Pepper and being a hikikomori. I'll translate the footnotes too.  pmt7ar  (talk) 00:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! The footnotes really are helpful and improved the quality of the description. Thanks for bearing with me in this long discussion. I did learn a lot about hikikomori and Alice and I really hope they translated this novel to English so I can read it too!

Just one question, if there is a difference from the book vs the anime, say, in the description you wrote that she works with a laptop and never step out of her room (with the footnote to the book), but in the anime she is shown in a room full of computers monitors and occasionally step out to solve some of the cases. Since that is difference observe from the anime--in this case all the episodes showed her room full of monitors and stepped out of the room almost in all the episodes--for a short time but she does. Then, can you reference the specific episode to document that difference? Or that is too slight of a difference to acknowledge? or that is considered WP:OR?

Other than that, I think if you are ok with it, that we can close this discussion and got back to make this article even better. Cordially, Guariche (talk) 01:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * In the novel I don't remember such monitors, less be it with teddy screensavers, her room is described with a lot of PC and their noises, but that makes you think of processing hardware, monitors doesn't make noise. Also the description is the initial, it's true she goes out rarely when its extremely urgent for the case, but that's because of Narumi; before they met there is no record she ever stepped out of her room (character development?). In the anime is normal since it has another dynamic. In the novel 90% of Alice scenes are over the phone or in her room, just stepping out a single time in half the cases (despite the vol5 "spin offs" with the baseball chapter, that was weird). I don't know how notable it is since its normal for an adaptation. I mean I don't think it's too much difference to use a laptop or desktop pc, 3 or 20 monitors than say the chronological order (Angel Fix case was the first volume, and for instance Ayaka and Meo first encounter was on the baseball case on volume five). In any case it would be better if we found a site making an analysis so we don't abuse WP:OR. I'll think it and add later under the Anime section some factual differences. pmt7ar (talk) 04:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Since we are starting a different discussion dealing with a future section of differences between anime vs book, I will cut and paste your last response, so we can discuss such edits and we can left behind this discussion. Thanks, Guariche (talk) 19:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Differences between books and anime
[Questions and comments taken from section "Alice is not a Hikikomori, now a closed discussion]


 * ...if there is a difference from the book vs the anime, say, in the description you wrote that she works with a laptop and never step out of her room (with the footnote to the book), but in the anime she is shown in a room full of computers monitors and occasionally step out to solve some of the cases. Since that is difference observe from the anime--in this case all the episodes showed her room full of monitors and stepped out of the room almost in all the episodes--for a short time but she does. Then, can you reference the specific episode to document that difference? Or that is too slight of a difference to acknowledge? or that is considered WP:OR?


 * In the novel I don't remember such monitors, less be it with teddy screensavers, her room is described with a lot of PC and their noises, but that makes you think of processing hardware, monitors doesn't make noise. Also the description is the initial, it's true she goes out rarely when its extremely urgent for the case, but that's because of Narumi; before they met there is no record she ever stepped out of her room (character development?). In the anime is normal since it has another dynamic. In the novel 90% of Alice scenes are over the phone or in her room, just stepping out a single time in half the cases (despite the vol5 "spin offs" with the baseball chapter, that was weird). I don't know how notable it is since its normal for an adaptation. I mean I don't think it's too much difference to use a laptop or desktop pc, 3 or 20 monitors than say the chronological order (Angel Fix case was the first volume, and for instance Ayaka and Meo first encounter was on the baseball case on volume five). In any case it would be better if we found a site making an analysis so we don't abuse WP:OR. I'll think it and add later under the Anime section some factual differences. pmt7ar (talk) 04:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Well there is a difference between using a laptop vs a desktop computer when cracking any network system. A laptop doesn't have the computing capabilities to crack complex systems, while a desktop computer, can be modified easily to increase CPU, memory and all the good stuff that hackers like. But, it could be that the anime director decided to visually add the monitors to emphasize her hacker abilities? A laptop doesn't have the same impact than a room full of monitors :-)


 * I agree that a section/or improving the anime section in the future to document the the chronological differences between books and anime will be appropriate too and that is not WP:OR since you have the volumes to document that. Anything that you can refer back to the original work, be the book or the anime is not OR but citing the primary source. Of course, it is always a matter to find the time to do that. Hopefully other people will come and make decide to tackle that part.


 * Alice stepping out of her room to help Narumi is definitely character development and growth because it shows that Narumi is changing her, so she is becoming "less" hikikomori? I guess the anime have the flexibility to show character development faster since it is limited to x amount of episodes, vs. a book series which build the development more slowly.


 * Finally, I like your idea to add factual differences in the Anime section. I guess it will take time to find other people writing and analyzing this anime since it barely came the other day and the books are still in Japanese :-( But I think we are in the right track. Do you think, when you have time, you can add a Plot summary for overall story? I think that will enhance the article. I can help summarizing the anime episodes. Thanks, Guariche (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * That would be great, if you have the anime episodes fresh you can summarize them. It's been a while since I read the novels so I don't know if have enough to summarize a whole volume. Maybe just the outline and/or the summary on the novels jackets, when I have time. In the novel she also has lots of monitors and desktop hardware, just not that exaggerate as in the anime (the first ep showed literally a 360 WALL of monitors). In BT there was a teaser for a translation but still hasn't progressed, it got the vol1 Kishida artwork though, [].  pmt7ar (talk) 22:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I am watching right now, so I will finish the anime first and then go back to the first episode and start the summaries. In term to do the plot summary, it could be a basic one that highlight the main story and yes you can based that on just the "outline and/or the summary on the novels jackets." People can add and expand as more people are more familiar with the story. Since this is a Start article you don't need to be super detail. But, we can at least create the sections that are needed to make this a more complete article. Do as much as you want or can, since you have the hard part, translating from Japanese. Later, Guariche (talk) 00:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Possible improvements
Saw the notification at WP:ANIME/ASSESS, and thought I'd throw in my two bob. I feel that the article needs the plots of the anime episodes included, as it is a gap in coverage, and that the article needs more reception. The CSE may help with this. After the episode summaries and any available reception is added, a copyedit wouldn't hurt - there are some choppy sentences. --Malkinann (talk) 00:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Malkinann, I agree with you that the article still needs more work and that the summaries for the anime episodes need to be added. I was going to do it but RL really got in the way and right now I don't have time to do it. So, anyone that want to start doing that part is more than welcome. Thanks, Guariche (talk) 03:09, 19 December 2011 (UTC)