Talk:Heavy metal genres/Archive 1

Speed Metal
Due to my complete rewrite of the Speed Metal article, going back to 1972, I will make the correction to the speed metal in this article accordingly. If you want to discuss or read about the viability of speed metal as a main sub-genre of heavy metal and not a cross genre, then read the speed metal articles talk page and make comments there. Thanks. --PureHolocaust 14:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Glam metal
Ok i seriously disagree with the "Popular bands part". Poison? Faster pussycat what the fuck???? Who the fuck are they? Like i added Kiss and Quiet Riot million times and nothing. Stupid arse bots. Plz put them instead of those 2.... OK For Motley Crue they are really popular but these 2 like wtf....
 * Yes, automatically assume that anyone reverting your edits is a bot, that's a really mature attitude to take... and I really doubt that you haven't heard of Poison. --LordNecronus (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

No i never heard of them. Probably some shit band, like the other one (faster pussycat)
 * So, now a band's placement on the article is judged by whether you think you like them or not? --LordNecronus (talk) 15:41, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

You want to say you know these bands? And Yes, it does. Actually not if i like them or not, but if they are POPULAR *cough* enough

OK, I've had some time to think about this. I think it's the approach you took initially that put me off, but now that I've cleared my head a bit on this, I have to say... you've got a point. At least, you've got a point with Faster Pussycat; they're not particularly well-known at all, and replacing them with a more well-known band (WASP?) seems like a better idea. Poison, however, is quite well-known. Not as much as Motley Crue, but still pretty popular. --LordNecronus (talk) 19:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Thrash Metal
"Thrash metal originated, and remains, NWOBHM." Bull, the 'big four' are not NWOBHM (Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Slayer). You could say they're influenced by NWOBHM, but they most definitely aren't NWOBHM anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.89.243 (talk) 09:08, 2 December 2006‎ (UTC)

Anthrax, Pantera and Sepultura
It would be helpful to me if the following bands were either classified or explicitly not classified for some reason:


 * Anthrax
 * Pantera
 * Sepultura

--Crag 20:18, 2004 Mar 1 (UTC)
 * I believe they are all considered thrash metal bands. Tuf-Kat 22:03, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)


 * Anthrax is considered one of the 'Big Four' (Anthrax, Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer) of Bay-area thrash. Pantera has played a number of styles, including speed and power metal (their lesser known earlier albums) and are considered 'groove metal' by some metal purists. I wouldn't recommend using Pantera as seminal examples of any genre. Same goes for Sepultura, who went from death/thrash, to thrash, and now make what most consider hardcore. --Egregius 16:47, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Anthrax are thrash. Pantera were once a hair band, and later became post-thrash, and Sepultura were once a death metal band, then became post-thrash, then became nu-metal.MetalGoodness 03:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Sepultura have only done one hardcore album they are a thrash/death crossover band they used to be what I would describe as ethnic metal. They are not, nor I imagine will they ever be a nu-metal band. Right now one might discribe them as post death metal or post death/thrash or just extreme metal. Unregistered text offender 13:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

actually i should have said tribal metal not ethnic metal well maybe. Unregistered text offender 13:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Heavy Metal Wiki
Anyone else think there needs to be one using the wikimedia engine? The only thing resembling that is Encyclopedia Metallum, but that's run by some childish fools who embody the stereotypical burnout metalhead kids everyone mocks. Contact me for more info MetalGoodness 03:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. However, i dislike that it would probally be run by idiots just like those on The Metal Archives, aka, Encyclopedia Metallum. However if yew start one, i will help. I however do not endorse it as a Encylcopedia, nor do i endorse you avertising it on Wikipedia. Ley Shade 12:36, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Leyasu, i just find it offensive to disrespect the Encyclopedia Metallum, as it is the best archive for finding info on bands and discographies, lyrics etc. - Paulo


 * I disagree because its full of wrong information, mis-catagorisation, and insults to bands and fans. Most of what is on there is 99% crap. Ley Shade 21:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes i did apologise, in response to leyasu. you can always edit metal archives if you see something wrong, ive changed quite a lot of stuff over the years. Although if you know of a better site, please let me know. - Paulo


 * From an outsiders point of view it seems that Paulo's issue started with MetalGoodness, yet I see no reposte here or on their user page. In any case, unless you're seriously claiming WP:NPA there's no reason to remove text which expresses users personal opinions on a talk page, however strongly stated.  Dei zio  21:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a word on the Encyclopedia Metallum, Ley Shade, I actually think it is the most reliable web source on metal. Honestly, better and more accurate than most of what's on Wikipedia (one reason for this is of course that there is no bio on the bands, just dates, names and other easily verifiable stuff). I use it all the time as a reference when looking for info on metal bands and never found anything wrong. However if I'm wrong to do so, please show me an example of misinformation on it, I'd really hate to base much of my info on a wrong source. Thanks --IronChris 02:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

If we do it with metal why not everything else then then there won't be a wikipedia anymore won't that be fun. there is a much larger reason why this should never be done (except when you want to have different formats or rules) its because it causes people to be very insular and not find out anything about anything else atleast thats the short version. Unregistered text offender 13:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Math Metal
I know I'm getting old, but this seems like a step too far. --Phil | Talk 17:06, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * I was about to say the same thing, but it does get 23000 google hits... Tuf-Kat 04:37, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * it's up for AFD now Spearhead 21:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good. Every band will be making up some genre name for themselves to try to market their band as being "original" if this so-called genre isn't rejected.

I happen to think that many of these terms are going to far but wikipedia isn't about how things should be its about how things are and the fact of the matter is like it or not people or atleast jernalists like to clasify things, as for the term math metal i thought it's ussually refered to as mathcore as it grew pretty much out of the grindcore sceneUnregistered text offender 13:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Descriptions
I reverted the removal of the description paragraphs because I think they make the list much better. Tuf-Kat 21:46, May 3, 2004 (UTC)

Why use list descriptions when separate articles are available for all styles?
 * Well, firstly because you've added most of the remainder in the past half an hour, and secondly as an index. -- Jim Regan 02:36, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

I would imagine that the idea is to have brief disscriptions here and much larger ones in the main articles, if you've got an encyclopedia you don't want to open it and find just a bunch of lists do you? Unregistered text offender 13:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Viking Metal
I'm missing viking metal. There's a wikipage for it. A genre pioneered by Bathory on their third album: Blood Fire Death. --Egregius 16:47, 5 July 2004 (UTC)

Addition of Troll Metal and ex. of Folk/Viking Metal bands
On the matter of genres, the band "Finntroll"(Finland) comes to mind as an example of what can be called Troll Metal. Looking at this page www.fact-index.com/t/tr/troll_metal.htmlgives a larger list of what some consider Troll Metal. Actually Finntroll can even be considered Folk Metal due to their inclusion of a Finnish Polka (Humppa) sound. Please consider adding Troll Metal as another genre.

I would like those more knowing than I to consider adding "Otyg"(Sweden) and "Vintersorg"(Sweden) to the list of examples of Folk Metal. Also, please consider adding the band "Einherjer"(Norway) as an example of Viking Metal. Thanks.

the only reason why the term troll metal exists (and i might add its a derogetry one) is because mortiis dresses like a troll and because of finntroll's name. However mortiis is clearly industrial metal and as for finntroll and similar bands if they really have to be made into a subgenre of folk metal then it should be refered to as humppa or oommppa metal or if you want something that sounds less silly to western ears then polka metal. Unregistered text offender 13:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Bands go on the articles for lists of bands of a given type. As such all 'examples of bands' are going to be removed from this article to cease arguments. Ley Shade 14:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * for a start i do not think that argument is a bad thing secondly if you do feel the need to remove examples then perhaps you should only do so to the most contentsious examples and thirdly something should only be considered to be a genre when it has been siriously mentioned by a number of music jurnolists Unregistered text offender 14:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

dillenger escape plan
Any opinions on what category Dillenger Escape Plan should belong to?


 * Math metal.--KASchmidt 05:52, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hardcore, absolutely. While they have some differences from bands typically described as "hardcore," I've attended two of their concerts and can say from personal experience that the stage presentation and the mosh pit are 100% hardcore. Additionally, the vast majority of their fan base is hardcore. I hope nobody minds that I actually went ahead and put DIllinger as hardcore?


 * zelmerszoetrop (i haven't got an account, but I come here all the time.)


 * I say extreme metal but i'd accept math metal or mathcore Unregistered text offender 13:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Dillinger have nothing to do with Extreme Metal, apart from Extreme Metal not being a genre. They work and play in the Hardcore scene, if you want to split hairs over what form of Hardcore, the Hardcore article is over there *Points* Ley Shade 14:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hardcore
I think Hardcore should be 'promoted' to a fully recognized genre. I know it's a big change, so I won't do it myself, but what do you all think? It has grown by leaps and bounds in recent years, and nobody can doubt that hardcore is quickly generating a little subcultre (e.g., the very brutal pits as opposed to other genres one might mosh to, the "straight edge" attitude among most of its fans, etc.)


 * zelmerszoetrop (again)


 * This is a list of Heavy Metal genres, not Punk ones. Punk genres go on the list for punk genres, not this one. Hardcore is not going on this list. Ley Shade 14:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Tool
I don't think it's accurate to place Tool under the "nu metal" section, since the section more or less defines nu metal as having a pronounced hip-hop influence, when Tool has no hip-hop influence at all. - Theli 93 07:06, 22 August 2005‎ (UTC)


 * Thanks for the change in regards to Tool. I re-added them under "progressive metal". My rationale is that the Progressive metal page lists Tool as a member of the genre, and the Tool page, under the genre controversy section, alludes to King Crimson (almost the definition of prog) being their primary influence. This makes all three pages consistent. -  Theli 93 17:57, 22 August 2005‎ (UTC)

Goth metal
Shouldn't "goth metal" be in fusion genre box than in subgenre (and many say that there isn't even existing such genre)? Please make it more correct.

-Cs


 * Thats because Gothic Metal has nothing to do with Goth Rock, and its petty people who try to make an association when there is none. Please try reading articles before asserting wrong claims. Ley Shade 14:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not true.The first bands that have been called gothic metal were doom-death metal influenced by gothic rock/darkwave acts. But still it's a metal subgenre not a fusion. Xr 1 13:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Noise metal on AfD
There is currently a discussion going on about deleting Noise metal on the basis that it is not a notable genre of heavy metal. I ask the editors of this page to please join that discussion. Thanks. JoaoRicardo talk 19:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

it should be mentioned in the section on industrial metal Unregistered text offender 14:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Nu-metal / Metalcore?
Who the hell put those 2 in the article? Are you serious? It is a VERY well-known fact among metalheads that those 2 genres are not metal and never will be.

Nu-metal is obviously closer to rock than metal, and metalcore is definately core. Get your facts straight.


 * Actually it's quite the opposite. Nu metal is influenced by a number of other genres, but it's still a metal subgenre.  WesleyDodds 13:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * And Metalcore is counted by most as a subgenre of metal, only people who listen to metal bands who want to seem 'cool' to other older fans denounce the two genres as 'untrue' or 'unmetal'. Ley Shade 14:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

On both accounts this is border line metal. Nu metal is more rock than metal. And as such I do think it should go to the cross-over genres. Metalcore probably somewhere in between metal and core, much like grindcore. Probably should stay there for now. Than again I do "want to seem 'cool' to other older fans" ;-) Spearhead 21:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The last name/suffix, except in cases of outright fallacies of equivocation like "nu-metal", is the root genre. Metalcore therefore is a hardcore genre.

metalcore i have allways felt is a combination of classic metal such as judas priest and hardcore allthough it grew out of the hardcore scene it clearly has more of the metal ellement in it than the hardcore simply on the basis that hardcore has a metal influence in it as well basicaly metal plus punk with a bit of metal means that there is more metal than punk or hardcore Unregistered text offender 14:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Metalcore is not a true genre of metal; it is hardcore punk with metal influences. And Nu-Metal is a style of Alternative Metal with rapping/hip-hop influences. Alternative Metal is a type of rock music, that veers towards a 'metal' sound but still isn't metal. However because they have some kind of relation with metal, it should be notable. That's why they belong in the related genres section


 * But metal is a genre of rock music. WesleyDodds 06:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed it is. But this is a section on just metal music, not other styles of rock. In Flames 18:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Nu-Metal and Metalcore are both forms of metal. If you are going to delete those two, then you had better delete Thrash, Death and Black Metal, because sonically the music they play has more in common with hardcore punk


 * Factually incorrect on the death and black metal area; thrash to a lesser extent. The fact remains that many (nearly half, in my experience) metal fans do not consider metalcore and nu metal to be metal.  Hell, the very fact that one of them ends in "-core" practically discounts it from being metal altogether. Ours18 22:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Epic Metal
Epic metal isnt just defined by "keyboarding considered to be intense", as very few Epic metal bands even use keyboard soloes often. And it has absolutely nothing to do with Gothic metal, go do some proper research. It is basically a fusion of Power metal and Symphonic metal.


 * Yeah, that would be known as, this. Thus your theory is pretty, wrong. Especially when half the bands considered 'epic metal' are Gothic Metal bands. Ley Shade 09:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Speed Metal
As per massive correction of POV/incorrect info in the speed metal article, I have corrected it here as well. See the speed metal article talk page before any reverts - I have already discussed this with others as you see, and the speed metal article was giving off CONFLICTING information previously (ie. having its roots in power/thrash even though it predates the genres? 100% incorrect.)


 * there is some conflicting information regarding speed metal vs power metal. the speed metal article says it is a cross genre of thrash and power metal, whereas the power metal explains that helloween is a prime example and mixes speed metal with old school heavy metal. Also AFAIK, the term speed metal (80s - megadeth and metallica were often called speed metal) is older than power metal which is more a 90s term. Spearhead 15:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Nu-Metal
In the article it states that metal enthusiasts think nu-metal is not an actual subgenre of heavy metal music, it should be noted that it seems to be extreme metal fans who are most common in voicing this opinion, the original fans of heavy metal are from the late 60s and early 70s... I have never seen, even after seaching extensively, evidence of them saying whether they think nu-metal is an actual subgenre of metal or not. thanks. - Deathrocker 09:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Which would be an appeal to authority fallacy if they did, anyways.

Rap Metal
I, as a notorious fan of Rap Metal, would inform this article's authors that the reference about a genre such as this is in danger of being the most vandalized one here. In fact - but it's a foressen objection - I can easily perceive that most of the "tradtional heavy metal" fans cannot stand "commercial", "easy listening", "only-sex-focused" music (e.g. exactly rap/hip hop) and, consequently, can refuse to recognize Rap Metal/Rapcore as a "crossgenre".

For a start you should have put you're name in secondly the possibillity of people dissagreing with you isn't a reason to not say or write something even if they may allso vandalize it thirdly i have never heard it refered to as rapcore (though i can imagine the genre existing) and certainly not as the predominant term as that part of the piece suggests or implies. Unregistered text offender 14:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Rapcore is another name given to Rap Metal, which is used in conjuction with Alternative Metal to divide between Nu Metal bands that have Hip Hop influence, and those that dont. Ley Shade 14:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * rap metal seems to have come out of the hardcore and thrash metal scenes, i would imagine that groups such as "bad brains" could be refered to as rapcore where as "limp biscit" (atleast in their early years), and "hed (pe)" would be refered to as rap metal. also "korn" were in the past considered to have a strong hip hop influence but theve only ever been refered to as nu-metal. Unregistered text offender 13:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Bad Brains rap metal? hardly... They have been referred to as rasta-punk but there is no element of rap (although they are black so maybe that is where this is coming from?). My view on this is that people are gonna make bad music that is associated with metal and there is not a thing you can do about it. Take 80s glam metal - that wasn't true metal (and a lot of it was horrible) but it is still associated with metal. Olliegrind 20:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

List of "Heavy Metal" genres?
Why is this article called "List of heavy metal genres"? It must be just "List of metal genres". Because heavy metal is a genre, and for example, Black Metal is not a subgenre of heavy metal, it's only a subgenre of metal music. Heavy metal is a subgenre of metal, too. --Aeternus 17:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * coz heavy metal is also used as a more general term covering all its subgenres Spearhead 18:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * see the discussion on talk:heavy metal for the reasons --MilkMiruku 19:35, 8 May

2006 (UTC)

I agree with the Aeternus. Many people have told me that Metal is just short for heavy metal. It is actually a sub genre and also called Traditional Metal or True Metal. Sort of like Rock is a genre, and Hard rock is a subgenre. I wish there wasn't so much confusion between this genre. Please look at MetalCrypt.com and then click the Genres section. This is the best sort of metal Subgenres i can find.

Deimoss 02:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

U're wrong, U can call "Heavy metal", because that was the first original metal... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.252.80.81 (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Cyber metal
I rather think that Cyber metal does exist, for the following reason: something becomes a genre when the term is used alot by jurnolists to discribe a particular type of band this is what has happened with this particular term the bands i mentioned fear factory, static X, spineshank have all had the term applyed to them in magazines. Unregistered text offender 10:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Cyber Metal is another name for Industrial Metal, so please see that article. Ley Shade 10:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I suspect that cyber metal could referance a type metal that incorporates elements of dance music and hip hop genres primarilly more so than industrial but i'll check the other genres in the list to see if that amalgamation is covered under another title. Unregistered text offender 13:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed no dance music metal cross-over is mentioned in other genres although it could be considered to one of the ellements within nu-metal having said that the bands most often refered to as cyber metal seem to allso have a prog rock ellement to them not least because of their use of concept based songs and albums. Unregistered text offender 13:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Industrial Metal is the crossover of electronic based music and metal. The name comes from the fact many of the bands use genres associated with Industrial Music. Also note that many terms are coined, which are often names for the same thing. Cyber Metal is massivly reknown to mean Industrial Metal, its something you have to learn to live with. Ley Shade 13:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

perhaps cyber metal should be briefly mentioned as a synonym for industrial metal in that genres listing> Unregistered text offender 13:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't say I've ever heard of "Cyber Metal", though if its a form of dance music it shouldn't be just lumped in with Industrial Metal. As Industrial and Dance are two completely seperate genres themselves. - Deathrocker 16:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

perhaps if it only incorporates dance music then it should have its own genre title but it does incorporate alot of industrial ellements as well so i don't know, like i said if its a synonym for industrial metal then it should be mentioned as such, however it has to be said that the bands that get labeled cyber metal don't allways get labelled industrial metal as well and that they do seem to be different from alot of other industrial metal bands and they do seem to various ellements that link them together such as their lyrical topics and even the exact manner in which they incorporate the non metal ellements into their music. Unregistered text offender 16:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Cleared it up to fit in with the rest of the article. 81.157.83.176 18:32, 11 May

2006 (UTC)

Aggro
it has recently said that aggro is another form of nu-metal this would mean that ministry is a nu-metalband which is not the case as they pre-date it by about 14 - 16 years and their current style pre-dates it by i think something around 6 - 8 years, i mention ministry as from what i know aggro metal or just plain aggro was invented [the term atleast] by ministry's lead singer Al Jourgenson to make up for the over use of the term industrial. Unregistered text offender 12:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * for more on that, see List of industrial music subgenres --MilkMiruku 14:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * it has been suggested that aggro is a different type of nu-metal i was just trying to clear that up if its in the industrial subgenres then obviously belongs in here and i shall be rectifying this misstake forthwith. Unregistered text offender 12:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

What you are referring to is Aggro-Industrial. Aggro Metal is another name for Nu Metal, as the Nu Metal article states. Ley Shade 13:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok but is't aggro industrial kinda metal based it seems to be pre requisite of those bands that call themselves aggro that they have loud screeching metalised guitars i'm not sure weather this would make them metal based i suppose ministry started out as a synth pop band then an industrial one then aggro so........... Unregistered text offender 14:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Took off Alternative metal and nu-metal because they aren't genres of metal.

Took off genres.
Took off Alternative metal and nu-metal because they aren't genres of metal.
 * I agree with the fact alternative metal and nu-metal (not to mention metalcore) and not true forms of metal. However I think a new section should be added, for metal that isn't strictly 'true metal' but has influences from it.
 * Just moved around some of the genres to their rightful places without deleting them.


 * Who defines what's a "true" genre of metal? Nu metal and alternative metal are covered in a number of sources (particularly the ones referenced on Heavy metal music) as styles of heavy metal.  This seems like bias to me.  WesleyDodds 06:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wes, I think the "true" qualifier has something to do with the percentage of Gary Gygax inspired lyrics to sweep picking. maxcap 18:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I added Melodic Death Metal to the Death Metal section, as I feel it is important 85.210.2.218 00:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed it. Please understand that the Melodic Death Metal article is currently under revision to be merged into the Death Metal article after it has been revised. Thus, it doesnt belong here. Good work anyways. 02:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade


 * As far as I can see there's kind of a large difference on Death Metal and Melodic Death Metal.

Leyasu
Please stop reverting the changes made without discussing why.

Thrash metal as stated in its own article is NWOBHM mixed with hardcore punk, bands before Thrash existed used double bass drums (Motörhead, for example) so they can't have started it... there is really no reason to revert such changes. - Deathrocker 07:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As shown above, I've requested that the user (who is using an anon to avoid a block) discuss reasons for making reverts of perfectly good edits. Nobody else seems to have a problem with the edit. He won't even voice what he thinks is wrong with the section, seems to be trouble making with no good reason. Feel free to discuss any issues with it or stop verting it, thanks. - Deathrocker 14:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Your revert parole states one revert a day, the same as mine. Also understand that the Thrash Metal article i have also reverted. Thats because of the same reasons as the ones here. I chased up the history and found it was changed by someone who, non the less, tried to violate WP:NPOV with a similar article.


 * The other problem is your wording. Without being nasty about it, you seem to not understand what neutral wording is. I would correct it, but many times there is nothing to work with other than a completely POV statement.
 * Other than that, you may not want to start a war with me when your Abririttion Case is still on the go. My actions should not denote yours, so i suggest steering clear of a war. 86.143.127.108 23:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The arbitration case hasn't closed yet. A revert parole is proposed but not closed yet. What exactly is your problem here?... you don't even like Thrash metal or seem to know about it. Thrash isn't influenced by the likes of Blue Cheer or Led Zeppelin... they're influenced by the likes of Iron Maiden and Judas Priest (who are NWOBHM bands.)... as stated previous, Motörhead also used double bass drums before thrash even existed, thus meaning Thrash wasn't the first movement in metal to ever use it.

Nevermind, I can source it anyway. (not that it needs it as its common sense to everybody else who edits on this article) - Deathrocker 08:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Some of what yew put 'may' be correct, regardless of the fact that Maiden, Judas and Motörhead are all, ironically, Thrash Metal. The term NOWBHM refers to 'any' British Metal band. Power Metal bands such as Dragonforce are also known as NWOBHM. Try not contradicting every other article when trying to make a point.

No it doesn't, New Wave of British Heavy Metal is and always has been, the second wave of Heavy Metal that emmerged after the original metal movement died and punk took over in the late 70s. All you have to do is read the info about NWOBHM on this very article to figure this out. - Deathrocker


 * I have to agree with Deathrocker. The phrase was specifically coined to refer to the second wave of British metal that emerged in the wake of punk rock.  Certainly it inspired quite a few subgenres, but the genre itself refers to a specific time and place.  WesleyDodds 21:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Leyasu, in your edit are you defining "heavy metal" as "classic" metal, or to refer to the entire genre in this case? maxcap 15:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Point remains, NWOBHM is a regional scene of Heavy Metal. There is many times no actual musical connection between many bands termed NWOBHM, and the term has been used for more recent bands regardless of the purpose for its coining. 15:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade
 * I think it's probably more more similar to an art movement. maxcap 19:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

"regardless of the fact that Maiden, Judas and Motörhead are all, ironically, Thrash Metal."
 * I presume that was a joke, you may want to visit the articles of those bands, because you'll find you're gravely incorrect. - Deathrocker 16:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Speed Metal is Thrash/Power. With them saying Speed it only proved my point. 15:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade

You are basically trolling now. I've cited the information, yet you persist in vandalising it by changing it to information which is not contained in the link.

Speed metal does not just apply to "Thrash and Power metal" it applies to a wide range of musical genres X-Japan for example are neither Thrash nor Power metal, yet they are Speed metal. If you don't know what you are talking about and aren't versed in that spercific area at all, why continue scupper the efforts of people who are trying to work on the article civily? You shouldn't even be editing articles with IP's anyway as you are supposed to be serving a month long block (!) - Deathrocker 02:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry but you do not invalidate everyone elses sources simply because you like one of your own. Also see WP:NOT. Youve also violated WP:3RR. I warned yew not to start a war with me, your the one that didnt listen.


 * So, if you want to break policy, go ahead, but i can do it all day, as you wont push your POV over me. Also, my block already ended, NUH, TRY AGAIN.


 * Third off, the Speed Metal article says its beginning to apply to other forms. Dont try to be condescending with me when your on the exact same revert parole, and have had far longer blocks for trying to POV Push before. 10:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade

I'm not getting into your little game where you are attempting to bait me..

You persisted in pushing something which you have shown on this page you have absolutely no clue about, using anonymous IPSs while blocked, and even Wesley a member of the WP:HMM has attempted to get it through to you what NWOBHM means, face it you don't know what you're talking about here, other editers do.

There are no "other peoples sources" provided, you are the lone ranger who is vandalising that part of the article. I provided the only source which is included in that part of the article. a source which states "In the late '70s, a cache of British bands dubbed the New Wave of British Heavy Metal (including Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and Motörhead) started playing metal faster, leaner, and with more menace than ever before. They helped influence a new American metal scene known as thrash in the '80s,"

There it is clear as day. Changing it so it just says "heavy metal" when the source states differently and you know so is "simple vandalism", and you are editing while blocked, so it does not get chalked up as part of WP:3RR as stated on the page.

You requested I cite; I provided a source. I've even now added two more sources, to back up everybody elses common sense, in an atempt to apease you, one of which is a direct quote from an actual Thrash band Hirax, End of.

You are litterely the only person who seems to think Thrash is not influenced by NWOBHM, please source the claim that anybody else on planet earth agrees with your edit. - Deathrocker 12:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well done, yew just added more violations of WP:NPA to my evidence in on Arbcom. Including calling me an idiot, telling me i know nothing, and claiming im vandalising because once again, other users arent allowing yew to disregard the core policys to push your POV on articles. Also yes, reverting while blocked still gets chalked up as WP:3RR, just like the 3RR page says.


 * Also, NWOBHM is, Heavy Metal thats British. Sorry to say that its still Heavy Metal. Also notice how not Every Thrash Bands is British, nor is every Thrash Band influenced by NWOBHM. Ley Shade 22:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Please show me where I said you were an "idiot"?... or that you know "nothing"? I said you've shown on this page a lack of knowledge of NWOBHM which is fair comment.

And with regards to the reverting while blocked comment. I meant, reverting of users who are editing while blocked... in WP:3RR it states if that is the case, then it doesn't get chalked up as part of it.

"Also, NWOBHM is, Heavy Metal thats British. Sorry to say that its still Heavy Metal. "

You are half correct, NWOBHM is a subgenre of Heavy metal that is British... though it is a different style to the original heavy metal bands. Black Sabbath are not NWOBHM for example.

NWOBHM has influences from punk rock in its music, which is not found in the original heavy metal movement (as metal pre-dates punk).

Why would a thrash band have to be British to take influence from NWOBHM? that comment makes no sense at all. - Deathrocker 22:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hardly is it fair when you called me an idiot; You persisted in pushing something which you have shown on this page you have absolutely no clue about,; which is a personal attack.

Quote it.

Heavy Metal is Heavy Metal, British or otherwise. Hence why its called NWOB 'Heavy Metal'.

Gothic Metal has influences from Black Metal not originally found in Doom-Death, your point?

The point is not every Thrash band is British, and not every Thrash band takes influence from NWOBHM like your claiming they do. Ley Shade 23:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. I'm yet to see where I spercifically called you an "idiot".
 * 2. Read WP:3RR yourself, its near the top in the "exceptions" section.
 * 3. Saying NWOBHM is the same as Heavy metal, would be like saying Heavy Metal is the same as rock n' roll of the 60s. This is an encyclodia, people can afford to go into spercifics, its not the simple english version of Wikipedia.
 * 4. So Doom-Death isn't exactly the same as Gothic metal, correct? Just as Heavy metal is different to NWOBHM and Glam metal is different to the original movement too, hense why they are subgenres. - Deathrocker 23:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * NOWBHM isnt a genre. Its Heavy Metal, thats British. Thats hardly a genre. Unless there is a genre for every countrys version of a genre. Japanese Jazz, Germanic Gothic Metal, Hungarian Hip Hop, Persian Pop, Turkish Trance, Estonian Emo, Croatian Classical. I can do this all day. Your argument doesnt work. Try looking for the Musical Genre article. Ley Shade 02:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm curious, not to sound disrespectful or anything, but how much do you actually know about NWOBHM? There's a clear difference between NWOBHM and earlier British metal bands, as well as certain other British metal bands during and after the period.  While they were pretty diverse, the bands had certain traits that bound them together: tougher sound, less blues influence, acknowledgement of punk rock, etc.  It really was a movement.  Hell, watch the Iron Maiden Early Days DVD and the documentaries it contains; it's quite informative.  WesleyDodds 03:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Movement yes Wesley, genre no. Movements happen all the time. The original movement in Gothic Metal was pretty different to the one today, but the music is the same. Movements are movements, not genres. 11:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade
 * In music, especially popular music, little distinction is made between movements and genres. Just look at Britpop.  WesleyDodds 06:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"Heavy Metal family tree"
I’m removing the “Heavy Metal family tree” because it is riddled with inaccuracies, firstly it doesn’t include Glam Metal, the most popular part of metal during the 1980s.

Second, Thrash is a subgenre of NWOBHM, as stated on the Thrash metal page not “Classic Metal“. Black Metal isn’t a direct subgenre of “Classic metal” either, it came out of Thrash in the 80s.

Speed metal is just randomly thrown on there, like somebody closed there eyes and just put it on anywhere. It also claims Gothic metal came out of Goth rock, it didn’t. The tree puts far too much emphasis on Death Metal, which in the whole cycle of metal isn’t that notable.

If somebody who has the slightest idea about the genre wants to remake it then please do, but the current chart looks very amateurish. - Deathrocker


 * That's odd because every single article about heavy metal here corroborates the heavy metal genealogy presented in the tree. Pasajero 15:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Deathrocker: The tree was compiled by me, directly from the heavy metal articles on Wikipedia. If there are inaccuracies, they are due to inaccuracies in these articles; if too much coverage is given to death metal, then it is due to Wikipedia giving too much coverage to death metal.

I expand the tree periodically to include categories that were missing, or remove ones that were discredited. Deleting the link to it "because glam metal is missing" is a very aggressive way to not solve the problem. Did you consider mailing the author (i.e., me) to suggest an amendment? Evidently not, it was easier for you to delete the link and bitch about it here.

Your comments also stand at odds with the current content of various articles. For example, the article on Gothic metal states:
 * The earliest stage of gothic metal can be traced to bands in the 1980s, who utilized the dark aesthetics of gothic rock with aspects of composition akin to doom metal.

That's a clear parent-child relationship. If you want to claim that it didn't, go edit the article to make it say so, and that change will get picked up in the next version of the tree.

You say: "Speed metal is just randomly thrown on there, like somebody closed there eyes and just put it on anywhere." - again, blame Wikipedia. Speed metal states:
 * The exact origin of speed metal is difficult to pinpoint mainly because it was never fully established as a sub-genre of heavy metal until the early 1980s...

That's about as accurate as it gets. If you know so much about the topic, why don't you fix the article? That's not sarcasm; I'm serious. The current placement of speed metal in the tree appears to be due to a statement in some article that has since been removed, as I can't find a source for it. Incidentally, it also now says:
 * speed metal was the vanguard for what would eventually become power metal and thrash metal... [t]he NWOBHM movement had reached its zenith at this stage and many bands embraced speed metal

It didn't say that when I compiled the tree. This gives me a notion of where to move it in the next version.

I look forward to your thoughts. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   13:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Funk Metal
Is there a reason it's not on the list? Bshbass 21:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. The genre doesn't exist. Prolog 14:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Wrong, check out Primus . Only problem is, Primus is about the only funk metal band (that I know of at least).


 * I'll name 3 more: Jane's Addiction, Faith No More, and Living Colour. The genre definately does exist.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.35 (talk) 21:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Funk Metal is a form of alternative not its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.124.166.2 (talk) 17:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

List of "Metal" Genres
Why is this called list of heavy metal genres, heavy metal is a sub-genre of metal.

Another thing is, i thought speed metal was thrash metal, but... whatever.

And is Pantera really 'Groove metal' ive never heard of that genre...

Deimoss 07:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, "metal" has always just been shorthand for "heavy metal". Speed and thrash overlap a bit, but there'll be people who'll go in depth regarding the differences.  "Groove metal" seems to have some favor as a term, but it's not as well-established as thrash or power metal.  WesleyDodds 07:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Electro metal
Electro metal is NOT always industrial metal, so you can't say that it is a duplicate. Electronics is a huge genre, not only "industrial and similars". ;) And industrial metal could also be without a big amount of electronics, since guitars and drums have a recognizable style.

All electronic genres apart from hip hop and garage have some basis in industrial music so even if a band thinks they are combining metal with for instance electronica they will always have a certain element of industrial within their music so actualy you're wrong Unregistered text offender 15:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Make Greater subgenres
There are so many subgenres of metal on this list. Some genres make sense, but others are just created by bands so they can be "original". For example both Viking metal and Troll metal have lyrics about norse mythology. The list should be cut, or maybe organized from the greater subgenres to the lower ones. Here should be the Greater subgenres.


 * Traditional
 * Thrash
 * Power
 * Progressive
 * Death
 * Black
 * Doom
 * Grindcore
 * Gothic
 * Folk
 * Symphonic
 * Nu
 * Industrial

I can agree with putting all the lower (other) subgenres in these categories.

Deimoss 03:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The point of the Refrences is that they are not genres in of themselfs. They are terms used to group bands from the major genres into subcatagories due to a smaller link.

Hardcore
I removed Hardcore since its a genre of Punk, not metal.--Inhumer 19:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Good, punk sux0rz xD Deimoss 04:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Get rid of it again. Some moron posted it yet again and they have no grasp of genres at all. (Cainen)

You missed one
I read the list and I don´t find one: Melodic Metal, but I don´t know what is the specification of this kind of sound. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.23.178.194 (talk • contribs).
 * 'Melodic metal' article was deleted through an AfD in September. Discussion is here. Prolog 16:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Rammstein/Industrial
I have added Rammstein to the short paragraph describing industrial metal, I feel they are as notable as Fear Factory. If you feel this was unnecessary go ahead and revert it, just please explain why. --Trusader 01:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

My revamp
My apologies but I really thought the previous version was rather poorly done. There was 33 different genres all listed from top to bottom without any sense of arrangement. Classic metal was bizarrely listed as a cross-over genre while industrial metal was not. For this and other reasons, I felt the article looked terribly messy. I decided to do a little revamp of the entire page. I felt the article would come across as more neat and organized by grouping similar or related together instead of the previous strictly alphabetical format. I did not removed any of the 33 different genres from the page other than to mention groove metal as a subgenre of thrash metal. The reason why I did this is because the article page on groove metal describe it as a subgenre of thrash metal and I thought it might be a too much to create a further listing under thrash metal (i.e. 1.2.4.1 Groove Metal under 1.2.4. Thrash metal). The descriptions I offered on the various subgenres are derived from the article pages on those subgenres. I merely constructed my own sentences instead of copying everything word for word. I tried to keep the description of every genre short since the article page is already long enough as it is. I deliberately chose to keep the description of the related genres even shorter than the main subgenres. Personally, I feel that a number of these subgenres need not be listed here, particularly Blues rock and Hard rock as well as those subgenres that do not even have their own article pages here on wikipedia (epic metal, troll metal, celtic metal). I did not removed them because I did not felt like stepping on anyone's toes. There's no real harm in leaving them in the article either. --Anarchodin 13:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Deathrocker, who reverted your change. This is, still, a list of heavy metal genres, and not heavy metal genealogic tree. Overdoing the genres/subgenres connection breeds more edit wars and makes the list less verifiable and less neutral. Prolog 18:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This seems much alike the case with Folk Metal where Anarchodin chose to violate 5 major policys creating genres and relations between them. I noticed he reorganised the whole thing to be completely different compeletely all of the genres to how he wanted them to be. His revamp was poorly done and biased with no sense of policy what so ever. Deathrocker was right to revert this in every single way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.157.80.149 (talk) 06:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC).


 * I don't normally post on talk pages so I don't find an account necessary, but I figured this would be the right topic for this to be mentioned in. It appears someone has added "hate metal" as a genre, and the whole section seems to be written by someone boasting about the achievement of having created such a genre. The stylistic hallmarks of the genre make it essentially the same thing as black metal the way described, simply "brutal guitar, blast beats, and harsh lyrics". The article is voiced as some sort of denouncement towards everyone for not being part of the supposed "movement". On a subjective note, I wouldn't put the physical or mental age of whoever added the genre anywhere above about 15.-ph00tbag

Electro Metal 2
Excuse me if I resume an old topic, but I have an idea:

since a simply "electro-" and "metal" band could play Depeche Mode + Iron Maiden, Aphex Twin + Death, Moby + Helloween or whatever you want, what do you think about making "electro metal" as the main section and "industrial metal" as the most common/popular/labelled/used genre? Connacht 12:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Retro Metal
Should this be on here? It was deleted as an article on its own. I still do not see the difference between doom/stoner metal and this so-called retro-movement of the 2000s. Bands have been making 70s inspired metal since the early 80s. Olliegrind 02:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If the article was deleted then it's difficult to see how it can be included, as this list is to organize Wikipedia articles, not display unique content. Neologisms like this are always tricky. It certainly doesn't qualify for inclusion on the HM template.  Dei z  talk 02:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. This article should not be turned into a compilation of all the non-notable and unverifiable neologisms that someone has somewhere once used. I already removed it once, but the edit was undone by . Prolog 11:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Grindcore
First off I'd like to clarify that I don't deny at all that although grindcore has evolved separately from heavy metal, it is still very present in the metal scene and that it shares many important characteristics with some metal subgenres (I'm thinking notably of the death metal subgenres). But since grindcore is actually an evolution of hardcore punk, shouldn't it be under Related genres? It's something I've been thinking about for a while now. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 23:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing it.Inhumer 01:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Grindcore is an evolution of crust punk (fusion between anarcho-punk ahd extreme metal) and is influenced by crossover thrash (fusion between heavy metal and hardcore) and it's often associated and mixed with death metal.It should be here.

Grunge
It's not a metal subgenre.It's alternative rock fused with hardcore punk and metal.I'm putting it in the cross-genre references where are some of the fusion styles. Edit: It's more appropriate to put grunge and other styles such as industrial metal and metalcore in a separate section - fusion styles.Xr 1 13:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

A general note
This is something that probably needs to be said periodically, partly so that newer users can be pointed to it. It's fine to list a few notable examples for each sub-genre, but I'd like to know if others agree with the following caveats. a) Without good reason or cause otherwise, 3 examples is enough. More than 4 is excessive. b) Without good reason, there is no need to replace one significant band for another. Thoughts?  Dei z  talk 13:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Fusion Genres
As you can see in the history of the article I've made a new category.But it's removed baceause it wasn't reach a consensus... I think it's good this article to have such section where metalcore,industrial metal, grunge and other genres to be. I'm waiting for your oppinions. Xr 1 23:14, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The categorisations in this list have been discussed, rediscussed, edited, fought over and agreed on.. the current format is the product of a great deal of discussion, and any changes should reflect a clear, new consensus among editors.. I know your changes were in good faith but I suggest you concentrate on working within the current definitions. You should also place new comments at the bottom of talk pages. Nice one,  Dei z  talk 00:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

DragonForce should be noted as a prominent Power Metal band. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Viking metal is not a genre
Viking metal is not a genre, its just a name for black metal folk metal and death metal bands who use viking lyrics, but i wont take it off unless everyone agrees.Nick227 18:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

List should be cleaned up and subgenres consolidated
Wikipedia should be for information that is deemed "official", and nitpicking of musical subgenre classification is by no means official. There really do not need to be entire subgenres dedicated to a list of 5 or even 10 bands. Maybe in a metal magazine or on a metal message board, but not Wikipedia. I know people like their classifications, but once you get into extreme metal, it starts getting ridiculous. I realize there's a need for differences between things like black metal and death metal, but beyond that it becomes unnecessary. Most of these bands themselves won't even classify themselves beyond that level, and those that do are being pretentious. Not even jazz has this many subgenres, and that's a genre that actually has enough distinctly different sounds to justify them. Metal doesn't. Classifications are so that the casual fan can understand the subtleties, and MANY of the metal subgenres are not so different that they require further splits, or a fusion label. I mean honestly, if I made an extreme metal band that sings about bananas instead of corpses, should there be a Wiki page for "banana metal"? There's a reason so many people don't take metal seriously, and it's because so much of it is too silly to be serious. I can't even read the subgenre pages with a straight face, and I've been a "metalhead" for 20 years. 74.76.142.137 16:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

what do you mean there is no need for classification beyond death metal? listen to dark tranquility, and then listen to Deicide. They both have death metal roots, but are completely different.Nick227 17:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The Beatles and the Rolling Stones are completely different, yet rarely receive any classification beyond "classic rock". You said it yourself, they have the same roots; not every band needs its own subgenre just because they sound different. 74.76.142.137 03:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Move proposal
I propose to move list of heavy metal genres to heavy metal subgenres.

Why? Someone moved my List of punk rock genres to punk rock subgenres, and he said this: "(It) isn't a bullet list of links". And actually, hes right. This article here isnt a bullet list of links, either, so I propose that we move it to heavy metal subgenres. Also, moving this article will make this article consistent with the punk rock subgenres article.

So I say we move it. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 00:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

All right. No responses...so far. The vote is 1 move, 0 stay...so far. If no one answers by Halloween, Im moving it. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 22:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

All right. Screw it. I am not waiting till Halloween. Three strikes and youre out. Im changing it. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 00:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Song samples
70.101.156.35 added the following comment and then deleted it, but I'd like to reinstate on my own behalf.


 * Someone should put a song sample next to every subgenre in this arcticle. You can't really learn how somthing sounds just by reading about it, you have to actually HEAR it.

That makes a lot of sense. Fair-use ogg snippets, anyone? — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   03:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for consistency
I strongly suggest that each and every heavy metal subgenre in this list do not contain anything more than the opening paragraph of the main article for that particular subgenre except for a final sentence giving no more than three bands as examples of the genre. The opening paragraph of the main article (also known as the lead, see WP:LEAD) should be a concise overview of the article and hence, an appropriate entry for this list of heavy metal subgenre. By adopting this approach, we can help to ensure consistency across wikipedia and avoid original research in this article. We can even drop the need to have any citation in this list as the references will be (or should be) found in the main article for each subgenre.--Bardin (talk) 10:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Some questions

 * Why is NWOBHM on this list? The main article identifies it as a period in heavy metal music, not a genre. Is there a need for its own entry here? Surely a mention under classic metal would suffice?
 * Why is classic metal listed under "Cross-genre terms within heavy metal?" The original metal style was a cross genre within what - its own self?
 * What is this cumbersome phrase "cross-genre terms within heavy metal" supposed to mean anyhow? Why are some genres like folk metal listed under primary while others like alternative metal are listed under cross-genre?
 * Should southern metal even be on this list when the main article literally consist of only three lines with no citations or references?
 * Does extreme metal needs its own entry when it is nothing more than a mere umbrella term for describing several different genres and combinations thereof?

I'd like to make some changes to this article but I guess I should give a little time for others to address these concerns of mine. So if you've got answers to my questions above, do tell. I'm not looking for arguments. I'm looking for enlightenment. --Bardin (talk) 11:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Power Metal
In giving examples of the genre, is Symphony X really one of the best available? It seems like a pretty poor one given that the band's page does not identify them as power metal and only one of their album pages is classified as such. They seem to fall more in the camp of progressive/symphonic metal, which seems like a notable distinction. YelloWord (talk) 15:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The structure
Is there any reason why alternative metal and avant-garde metal are in the Cross-genre terms within heavy metal section?  LYKANTROP   19:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Remove Opeth
I'm sorry if I'm bringing old stuff up again, since I'm new here. Anyway, I propose that we remove Opeth from the "Progressive metal" section. Opeth mainly incorporates death metal and progressive metal, and as such they are labeled as playing "progressive death metal" - calling them "progressive metal" would be taking conclusions too far, e.g. no progressive metal bands use death growls like Opeth does. I would like to remove this, if people agree? -Lhademmor (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Someone stop To Create New Genres
True Metal Genres

Power Metal Thrash Metal Gothic Metal Doom Metal Black Metal Death Metal Heavy Metal

Adjetives To Metal Genres example(Symphonic Brutal Death/Black Metal with neo classical influences) Symphonic Melodic Neo Classical Orchestal Progressive Folk Technical Epic Speed Brutal Christian Avant Garde

Crossover Pseudo Genres Alternative Rap Nu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.53.56.158 (talk) 19:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Traditional heavy metal
someone care to explain why this isnt on the list??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.239.90 (talk) 18:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Progressive metal
A quick question/suggestion: should progressive metal not be in the "cross-genre terms" list? You can have progressive death metal (Death, Opeth), progressive traditional metal (Dream Theater, Queensryche), progressive power metal (Fates Warning, Symphony X), progressive thrash metal (Sabbat, Voivod), progressive black metal (Enslaved, Emperor), progressive gothic metal (Epica, Novembre), progressive metalcore (Between the Buried and Me, Protest the Hero), and probably more besides. It seems that "progressive metal" is more of a term to describe one particular aspect of the music, and isn't tied down to any one area, just like how you can describe many different kinds as "Technical X metal". 86.141.186.212 (talk) 18:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. It makes sense, considering that if "alternative" metal is cross-genre, "progressive" fits the same mold. (Sugar Bear (talk) 04:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC))

Hela Metal
Should this genre be added to the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julian Grebe (talk • contribs) 00:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Alternative Metal
Now, I of course realise that Deftones, Tool and SOAD are alternative metal bands. Not only that, of course, but they count. So I won't mind if anyone disagrees with my suggestion, I'm absolutely, 100% fine with keeping the three bands there as the examples given of alternative metal.

My proposal, however, is to change the examples to Primus, Faith No More and Jane's Addiction. Since they were essentially the founders of the genre, I'm thinking they may be better examples. Thoughts? --LordNecronus (talk) 15:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

My argument for including grindcore
Look, grindcore's a fusion genre that combines crust punk with death/thrash metal, right? Why does it get exluded off the list when metalcore (thrash metal + hardcore punk), thrash metal (speed metal + hardcore punk), folk metal (folk + metal), rap metal (hip hop + metal), funk metal (funk + metal), progressive metal (prog rock + metal), post-metal (post-rock + metal) and sludge metal (doom metal + hardcore punk + southern rock) are kept? Anyone got a good counter-argument? Not "THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED ON A TALK PAGE". I mean, can anyone seriously argue against putting grindcore here? Anybody? --LordNecronus (talk) 14:31, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Update - How about if it stays in the "fusion genre" section? Does anybody object to that and have a credible argument against putting it there? Or do you all want to be blowhards? --LordNecronus (talk) 15:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Striking incivil immature comment. See WP:TALKNO for correct use of talk pages. 142.167.188.200 (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It wasn't a personal attack. Or an attack. How can anyone actually get offended by the term "blowhard"?
 * Anyway, moving on... are there still no takers for the argument? --LordNecronus (talk) 15:36, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Funk metal, again
Libs removed it for no reason. Why?Rockgenre (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can anyone give me a reason why? ?Rockgenre (talk) 20:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Libs didn't remove it Lordcranium did and then re-added it as an extra sentence within the alternative metal paragraph. It isn't a sub-genre of alternative metal. It is a fusion genre. It would not be added to the main list. It would go in the second list for terms. 142.167.188.200 (talk) 20:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ohh, sorry Libs if you're reading this, my mistake. It should be listed under cross genre terms, it is not an alt metal sub. It should be on the list.Rockgenre (talk)Rockgenre 21:23, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding traditional metal
This may already have been brought up by an anonymous user. I personally don't regard "Traditional heavy metal" as a subgenre of metal, but the main genre of it, but... why has the anonymous user's requests to add it been denied? Hell, the only one who took any notice was me, and I've spent most of my time with this incident removing the genre from the article! Now that I've finally decided to compromise - by having it there, but mentioning that it's not a subgenre - it seems that I need to raise the issue myself.

I'm going to say this in bold (literally, bold) terms: does anybody actually object to having "traditional heavy metal" placed on the article? And, for once, actually respond to this. --LordNecronus (talk) 20:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I certainly don't object. --86.54.4.158 (talk) 08:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't object but the introduction was off. Fixed now. 142.167.160.111 (talk) 12:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

regarding extreme metal
Would it be OK if I put some examples of extreme metal bands? Extreme metal bands that do not easily conform to any of the subgenres of extreme metal? --LordNecronus (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Extreme metal isn't a genre. It is a juvenile umbrella term invented for Wikipedia on someone's recess. It covers several legitimite sub-genres of heavy metal. How would you choose your POV favourite bands to include into a list that only allows 3 examples? And... since the umbrella term covers sub-genres that are already listed on the article.. with examples... why would there be a legit reason to duplicate the examples already listed on the page? Just a reminder.. extreme metal isn't a genre. Oh... and also... extreme metal isn't a genre. The Real Libs-speak politely 18:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, where did "POV favourite bands" come from? Second, extreme metal is a genre, only it's a very, very vague one that has death metal, thrash metal, etc. as subgenres. Third, I can name two bands that would not be able to easily conform to the other genres of extreme metal - Cradle of Filth and Celtic Frost - so a third shouldn't be too hard. Fourth, haven't you heard of neutrality? Fifth, yes, extreme metal is a genre - otherwise it wouldn't be here. Also, take a look at this. You see all those results? And why so fucking rude? Is that "speak politely" thing meant to be sarcastic? --LordNecronus (talk) 17:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Extreme metal isn't a genre. The one good thing about the EM article which the creators went above and beyond to clarify was that it is an umbrella term, not a genre. So... just to clarify.... extreme metal isn't a genre. Death metal and thrash metal and black metal etc are referred to (in the article not in real life music circles) as extreme(simply an adjective) forms of metal... or... extreme metal. They are not sub-genres of an umbrella term that isn't a genre. They are sub-genres of heavy metal... which itself is a sub-genre of rock. Hope that helps your confusion. The Real Libs-speak politely 18:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Confusion? No, you seem to be the one who's confused. If extreme metal isn't a genre, then why is it here? Go on, answer that. --LordNecronus (talk) 08:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Excuse the double post. I've found the third band that would be difficult to classify aside from "extreme metal": Strapping Young Lad. (the article itself already states that they're prog metal too, but there's no point adding them to the prog metal part of this article). So, that's Cradle of Filth, Celtic Frost and Strapping Young Lad, three extreme metal bands that are hard to classify under the subgenres of extreme metal. --LordNecronus (talk) 08:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, Lordnecronus seems to have the better (or at least less arrogant) argument. He/she is actually looking at the article, which has extreme metal there anyway. I say add them, myself. --86.54.4.158 (talk) 12:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

power metal
It's crazy to not mention Stratovarius in the power metal example bands, when you have there HammerFall or BlindGuardian which are bands that influenced much fewer bands than Stratovarius. Stratovarius is possibly the second most important power metal band of all times after Helloween and should be mentioned there. The sales of their albums worldwide is higher than Blind Guardian and/or Hammerfall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.64.233.235 (talk) 01:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm presuming you're just a random pissed-off Stratovarius fan who thinks the band is a lot more important than they actually are. "The sales of their albums worldwide is higher than Blind Guardian and/or Hammerfall" - if this is true, then I'd like to see a reliable source stating so; and even if this can be confirmed, the number of sales they've made doesn't necessarily equal how influential they are. How many albums did the Velvet Underground sell? Exactly. So, no, it's not crazy to not mention Stratovarius, and I'm surprised you're making such a fuss over it. --LordNecronus (talk) 01:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Industrial metal
If we're moving progressive metal over to the cross-genre section (a move I was against back when I was more ill-informed about genres), then how about moving industrial metal over there as well? Would that be acceptable? I could move it myself, yes, but I want to see if anyone objects before I do so. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Cross-genre terms within heavy metal v Primary Subgenres
Where is the line drawn between the two? On what basis? Why is for example glam metal in primary subgenres but progressive metal in Cross-genre terms within heavy metal? Munci (talk) 10:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, there isn't much of a line drawn between the two. Rather than try and define a line, I say we just scrap the concept of different sections and just have all the genres together. Only reason I can think of against this course of action is that some angry metalhead might object to nu-metal and metalcore being on here, and I don't see why we'd change our policy based on the opinion of said angry metalhead. --LordNecronus (talk) 15:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Examples for the Different Sub-Genres
I myself have noticed there isn't a consistant amount of band examples, for example under Viking metal there are only three examples of this type, whereas, under power metal there are four. Some of these examples are quite vage, unheard of or simply not important and Wikipedia, from personal experience, refuses to have articles about unimportant bands, for example, Cryoshell.

Important bands that have become internationally successful like, Iron Maiden, Black Sabath, and several others should be listed as the examples.

Under here list the bands that should be displayed as the examples for the different Sub-genres.

Bioleader (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Power Metal

 * Sabaton
 * Helloween

Follow this example here. Bioleader (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

How many bands are we settling on for each subgenre? I think I said four on your talk page, and that seems like enough to me. I'll come up with a list below of four bands for each subgenre listed on the page, and see if anyone has any objections/questions/etc. about it. --LordNecronus (talk) 15:24, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's my list. I decided to do the list slightly differently to your example in order to save space on the page.


 * Alternative metal - Faith No More, Tool, Deftones, System of a Down
 * Avant-garde metal - Mr. Bungle, Fantomas, Arcturus, Meshuggah
 * Black metal - Mayhem, Burzum, Immortal, Gorgoroth
 * Christian metal - Stryper, Tourniquet, Mortification, Deliverance
 * Crust punk - Amebix, Antisect, Doom, Hellbastard
 * Death metal - Death, Deicide, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse
 * Doom metal - Candlemass, Cathedral, Trouble, Saint Vitus
 * Drone metal - Earth, Boris, Sunn O))), Khanate
 * Extreme metal - Celtic Frost, Cradle of Filth, Dimmu Borgir, Strapping Young Lad (as bands that are clearly extreme metal, but (aside from early DB) don't fit clearly into an extreme metal subgenre)
 * Folk metal - Skyclad, Finntroll, Korpiklaani, Moonsorrow
 * Funk metal - Primus, Living Colour, Infectious Grooves, Faith No More
 * Glam metal - Motley Crue, Quiet Riot, Poison, WASP
 * Gothic metal - Paradise Lost, Type O Negative, Theatre of Tragedy, My Dying Bride
 * Grindcore - Napalm Death, Carcass, Brutal Truth, Pig Destroyer
 * Groove metal - Pantera, Sepultura, Machine Head, DevilDriver
 * Industrial metal - Ministry, Godflesh, Rammstein, Nine Inch Nails
 * Metalcore - Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Bullet for My Valentine, Avenged Sevenfold
 * Neo-classical metal - Yngwie Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore, Tony McAlpine, Michael Angelo Batio
 * Nu-metal - Korn, Slipknot, Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit
 * Post-metal - Neurosis, Isis, Pelican, Cult of Luna
 * Power metal - Helloween, Blind Guardian, Iced Earth, Sabaton
 * Progressive metal - Queensryche, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Opeth
 * Rap metal - Rage Against the Machine, Stuck Mojo (still thinking of two others)
 * Sludge metal - Crowbar, Eyehategod, Buzzov*en, Acid Bath
 * Speed metal - Motorhead, Venom, Accept, Annihilator
 * Stoner metal - Kyuss, Sleep, Electric Wizard, Acid King
 * Symphonic metal - Therion, Nightwish, Emperor, Rhapsody of Fire
 * Thrash metal - Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Anthrax
 * Traditional heavy metal - Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden (I have previously removed Iron Maiden from this section, but "traditional heavy metal" doesn't just refer to bands of the original movement - in fact, there are more modern bands that play the style, such as Grand Magus and Slough Feg)
 * Viking metal - Bathory, Enslaved, Einherjer, Amon Amarth

However, some sections have bits like "The style was pioneered in the early nineties by bands such as ___ and ___. Other prominent bands in the genre include ___, ___ and ___." They may pose a slight problem. --LordNecronus (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)