Talk:Heikki Kovalainen

Unhappy at McLaren
Does anyone have a decent source for this story, rather than "he told his friends"? It needs to be rewritten as well, due to the poor English, but I won't bother if someone can come up with a more reliable source. Bretonbanquet (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 01:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The source quotes a Times article. I'm looking for it right now. LeaveSleaves talk 01:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Straits Times has reported that he has mentioned unhappiness to his close friends. I could not find the actual report but others have mentioned this report,, . LeaveSleaves talk 01:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just found the same thing myself - no primary source, but a few secondary ones. I also found a quote from Kovalainen denying the whole thing. Sounds like a non-event. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So what do you think should be done? Is it worth mentioning the report, since don't have the primary source? Otherwise we'd at least need to add the denial info. LeaveSleaves talk 02:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are having trouble finding good reports, is it notable? Wait until something interesting happens. If we mentioned every time a second driver felt overshadowed we'd never write anything else. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 02:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed it. If there is further info on on this we can add it again. LeaveSleaves talk 02:12, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that's best. The original article is conspicuous by its absence, and Kovalainen himself denied it anyway, so it's just not worthy of inclusion. Unless, as LeaveSleaves says, it pops up again somewhere else, somewhere a bit more reliable. Bretonbanquet (talk) 02:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Kovalainen has said that he has several times qualified behind Hamilton only because he had the heavier fuel load (with only one pit, there has to be a difference). This Autosport interview says as much - "if you really measure the speed". I have seen no other report that he was disgruntled by this, or is threatening to leave the team if it doesn't change, though. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 12:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the driver be aware and part of fueling strategies during qualifying? I can't imagine McLaren refueling Kovalainen's car without discussing with him and I don't see how heavier fuel loads should implicate solely McLaren. LeaveSleaves talk 13:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh? Of course he would - who ever said he wasn't? -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 16:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My point exactly. That was a rhetorical question. LeaveSleaves talk 17:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You're being very mysterious, LeaveSleaves ;) Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 11:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I was stumbling around the net trying to find sources for the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix article when I found this. It's probably the source mentioned in the above report. I don't know how close this gets us to making a case for notability, but it is there if you want the original article. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 02:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The article pretty much states the same things as articles mentioned earlier. There is no direct quote from Kovalainen but a comment from people close to him. Until there is substantial indication from Kovalainen himself, I don't think we should add it. LeaveSleaves talk 03:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I essentially agree. But I think we should recognize that this article puts the rumour in the realm of plausibility. But it is still just a rumour. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 03:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He did mention the fuel load issue on camera on Finnish TV, saying "this is what the team has decided for this season", hoping for a change next season, which some might interpret as unhappiness, others as a disagreement about tactics. But then immediately afterwards he again said that he is very happy at the team, which he has repeated many times. I haven't seen any direct comments from him where he would've said he was unhappy. In Hockenheim directly after the race he was frustrated and commented "they didn't even let me race" (about having to let Hamilton by), but then a bit later he had calmed down and said it was of course the right call and he didn't disagree with it because he was having problems and Hamilton was faster. The main place where these "unhappy" rumours came from, I believe, was an article in Helsingin Sanomat where the reporter had taken some of his comments out of context. Kovalainen had repeated his opinion about the fuel issue, and also gave his comments about Hamilton's aggressive driving when asked (this was post-Fuji). The reporter only published the comments where he seemed to be critical, and left out the parts where he defended Lewis. This made it seem like he was being very critical of the team and Lewis. Another newspaper reported his full comments, which made them feel a lot less confrontational. This "he has told friends" business feels like it was made up from this story. And even if he had said that to his friends, who's to say they understood/reported his words correctly. Certainly rumours like this aren't strong enough to make it a fact that he's unhappy, when he denies it and says the opposite himself. IMO. Vakie81 (talk) 00:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Quite. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 00:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Race details
There is no significance of adding details of each and every race of the season into this article. Race report articles are there to cover this area. In fact there are details in the article that are not even considered significant even for race articles. These details are trivial, poorly written, unsourced and use multiple peacock terms. e.g. ""In the next corner Hamilton ran wide again, having flat-spotted his front tyre at the start, and dropped down to 7th between Massa and Räikkönen. Kovalainen was therefore running in 3rd and feeling confident about scoring his second win, having qualified with much more fuel onboard than the front runners Kubica and Alonso. He was waiting for them to pit, the tyres and the car seemingly working perfectly, when on lap 16 his engine blew up, and he was once again left wondering what might have been"" ""Kovalainen is the fourth Finn to race for the Woking based team, following Keke Rosberg, Mika Häkkinen and Kimi Räikkönen, all of whom have won the World Championship, albeit Mika Häkkinen being the only Finn to win the World Championship in a McLaren car""

I think that all such race information apart from notable incidents, such as first pole position, first win, accident etc., be immediately removed. LeaveSleaves talk 20:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not ideal, but few of the driver pages are. I suggest you take this up with Vakie81, as he has been expanding the article recently. There's clearly a passion there, and maybe voicing your ideas about how to improve what we have now would be better than calling for a deletion. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 09:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've mentioned my concerns here and I'm further tagging articles with issues mentioned above. The said user can answer them here. LeaveSleaves talk 11:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, here I am. Didn't notice the talk back here. Yeah maybe some race descriptions could be condensed a bit, like Brazil. Although Kimi Räikkönen's page seems to have about as much detail on 2007 and 2008 races. What's the problem with the Japan entry? It's basically the story of the races from Kovalainen's perspective, so they have details that aren't on the race reports. He certainly had an eventfull year, like the problems in China, so I thought it would be of interest to people in years to come. I can try to add some more references certainly. Which peacock terms did you find? Vakie81 (talk) 12:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * First, how Raikkonen's article is written is not a concern here. If that article really has as much details as incorporated here, then that article needs serious cleanup as well. But again that discussion does not belong here. If you really want to follow a model article consider Lewis Hamilton, which is a good article.
 * Detailing each an every event of Kovalainen's career does not serve any specific purpose. Not every minor event of his career is not notable. e.g.

"Kovalainen began his first official testing session with McLaren on January 9 2008 with Pedro de la Rosa at Jerez, and continued the next day with Lewis Hamilton. Kovalainen's best laptime was 1:19.752, losing to Hamilton only by 0.061 seconds. On the third day of Jerez testing Kovalainen posted the fastest lap of the day with 1:17.974, a new lap record on the Jerez track for a V8 engine."


 * Now here, it is notable to mention when Kovalainen started his work at McLaren. But his lap times, their comparison with other drivers is extremely trivial and is not a part of a biographical article. This is the case with rest of that section. Detailing events of entire race are not relevant here. There's a table at the bottom of the article which details his standings for each race and links to individual race reports. Those articles can incorporate this information. It could a good idea jot details and reactions from more notable races for him, such as British GP where he won the pole or Hungarian GP where he won the race. Mentioning details of his interviews that describe problems faced by car are not always notable. F1 drivers work throughout the year on developing the car and fixing nifty problems to improve efficiency. Discussing each of this problem in the drivers article is highly trivial.
 * Finally, you mention that Kovalainen has had an eventful year. Well, who hasn't? But I believe that's falling too much into recent history. These details might seem notable now, but next year many of them would be stale. Five years down the line most of these details would be purely trivial. Not to mention, if you follow these lines the articles size would be gigantic. Try and gauge events and details that would be notable few years down the line and incorporate them only. LeaveSleaves talk 13:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, I see what you're saying. I already tried to condense some race entries for starters, is that any better? I didn't write that testing entry so I didn't wanna go and delete it right off, seeing as the page had been much the same for a while without anyone touching that part. I only wrote most of what's after Hungary, trying to follow the style of the previous entries, to complete the year. I certainly think the driving style/tyre degradation problem is an issue which should be mentioned, as it had a notable effect on his season. Maybe it should be condensed a bit though, as well. I mostly just wrote down what I thought would be interesting for people trying to find information on Kovalainen, perhaps with more detail than what was necessary, but I figured more information is better than too little, and it's easier to take something out than to add. It is a work-in-progress though, and I did expect others would have their opinion on what to add. So thanks for all the tips. Vakie81 (talk) 14:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I tried to condense it some more. Is it looking any better? I think it's approaching the Hamilton article length. What are the biggest problems left? You said there was something wrong with the Japan entry for example? What do you consider to be the poorly written parts, English isn't my first language so I can't always tell. Vakie81 (talk) 15:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made further edits, and I think it looks a bit better. I don't think the race descriptions are much more detailed than in the Hamilton article. Kovalainen often had problems in races, so it takes a bit more words to describe them than "Hamilton won from pole". In special cases, like accidents or various difficulties and mishaps in races both have more detailed descriptions. Hamilton has a lengthy paragraph on the "team tensions" which affected his season in 2007, and Kovalainen has some info on the driving style issue which affected his, so I don't see any big problems on the 2008 article. Vakie81 (talk) 19:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are still many places where I think the text in not up to a standard. I'm going try and fix this. In this process, if you feel that I have removed something significant, feel free to point it out here. LeaveSleaves talk 19:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Still needs work, now particularly in reference area. I noticed you have used multiple sources from Turun Sanomat, a Finnish site. Since this is an English wikipedia, English sources are preferred. Unless some details are covered exclusively in foreign language, wherever possible, please try and replace the Finnish source and use English sources from hereon. LeaveSleaves talk 20:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, OK. Well most of the stuff you asked references for, or removed, were already confirmed in those Finnish articles. I think they should be just as valid as English references. They often have more details than English versions. I'm sure Brazilian drivers have their own language sources and Germans their own. One of the points of translating information from those Finnish articles to wikipedia is to bring that information to others who don't understand the language. I'm sure a lot of Finns will read the article and will report if the sources are quoted incorrectly.


 * "The team was forced to tell him to take it easy in order to avoid a puncture", that was said by Kovalainen in the Finnish article. And the part about Kovalainen feeling confident he could win in Japan, he says that in the Finnish article. I think it's important to add details like that, describing how much damage the engine failure possibly caused. And for China, "he set out on his final qualifying run but suddenly couldn't find the same level of grip on his last set of tyres as he'd enjoyed during the rest of the qualifying session", he says that in the Finnish article. None of those things are mentioned in the race reports as they shouldn't be, but here they should be mentioned as they describe the events from his point of view. If the description only gives out positions and results without the reasons and other details, it's not much different than reading the race results.


 * And why remove the Piquet crash mention from Singapore? It doesn't take much space, and now for someone who only reads that description the pitstop queing won't make sense. Vakie81 (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

(de-indent) I'm not discouraging you from using Finnish references or asking you to remove them. I'm just requesting you to prefer English references wherever possible. Excessive use of non-English references is frowned upon since majority of readers do not know a specific foreign language and it is difficult for them to verify and/or read the actual source. You can read WP:VUE for this.

When it comes to details, it is once again the same thing I mentioned above. Those details seem important now but might not be significant few years later. Someday majority of the section, particularly his non-notable races would be removed to accommodate other information.

Now, about Kovalainen's reactions and comments. I find it strange that you provide a lot of attention to his tyre problems but do not mention his reactions after his first pole or his first win. I mean, those achievements are definitely more notable than his seasonal tyre problems. And as an encyclopedia, more attention should be devoted to facts and events and less to the person's perspective and opinion about the facts, don't you think? LeaveSleaves talk 21:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Would it be better if I give direct quotes for Kovalainen's reactions, and provide the original Finnish version as a footnote, as WP:VUE suggests? That would maybe get around the issue.
 * Yeah at some point the non-notable races will probably be removed, but I think the details are what is interesting, and not just merely giving out the cold hard facts and numbers. Even real encyclopedias try to throw in anecdotes, quotes, reactions and trivia to try to make the subject seem more interesting and easier to remember, and not just a list of facts which is boring to read and easy to forget.
 * Reactions to pole and win: I can add those if you want, but even the Hamilton article has only a simple "Hamilton scored the first pole position and victory of his F1 career in the Canadian Grand Prix at Montreal. He led most of the race despite the safety car being deployed four times." Much more attention is paid to his tension with Alonso, and his reactions to that. I think the reason for that is that we can easily imagine what their reactions were to a win, and it wouldn't be of much interest to most people. The more interesting stuff to read about are the difficulties and drama, and how they deal with that. Atleast that's how I feel. Kovalainen does give his reactions to the win in the autosport interview where he talks about the tyre troubles, which I gave a link to. Vakie81 (talk) 22:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * About Brazil fuel: even though they don't come out and say it, it is very clear from the laptimes and reading between the lines from all of the team comments, that they had more fuel. RD: "There may be rain tomorrow - and, if there is, we may well see the deployment of the Safety Car. That being the case, it's possible that aggressive race strategies may be affected by those unpredictable variables. We've therefore opted for a race strategy that ought to allow us to protect against such interventions." Translated from Ronspeak = "We didn't want to risk using a normal fuel strategy and getting screwed by the safety car and that costing us the championship, so we took a few more extra laps of fuel to play it safe, instead of going with an aggressive (light fuel) strategy and going for pole."
 * The laptimes confirm it: Q3 laptimes compared to personal best in Q1 or Q2: Massa +0.538, Räikkönen +0.875, Hamilton +0.974, Kovalainen +1.149. This was proof enough for all the experts to declare prior to the race that the McLarens are clearly heavier. The same is also stated on the wikipedia race report. Would it be better if we say it as "but McLaren apparently opted for a heavier fuel strategy"? Vakie81 (talk) 19:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You should be able to find a better reference. I don't think you can say 'apparently'. And we can't translate from Ronspeak. That'd still be WP:OR. Finally, I wouldn't rely on what the race report says now on the Brazilian GP page. I'm going to overhaul it today, with referencing, which it doesn't have now. You can say "...which led many to believe that he was fuelled heavier than the other frontrunners." Then two or three references. Does that help? Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 23:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Career
He races for Team Lotus, not Lotus-Renault GP. Lotus-Renault GP is an entirely different team. Stop reverting to bad information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.221.87.58 (talk) 05:53, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that it is you with the bad information. There is no hyphen in Lotus Renault GP, and their constructor is listed as just Renault, as the team are sponsored by Group Lotus. Team Lotus run Renault engines, and as such, their constructor designation is Lotus-Renault. It is pretty clear to see here, which complies with the majority of current F1 drivers and their infoboxes. Cs-wolves  (talk)  12:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

You're right, the constructor is Lotus-Renault but the team is entitled Team Lotus. Much like the team name for Red Bull is Red Bull Racing but addressed as a constructor as RBR-Renault, or how about these. Ferrari is Scuderia Ferrari. Sauber is STR-Ferrari. Seeing a pattern yet? The team name != constructor name. Again, you're in the wrong. Don't believe me, click the link on the wiki page in your edit and you'll be redirected to the Lotus Renault GP. Congrats, you messed up again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.221.87.58 (talk) 02:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

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