Talk:Helen Clark/archive01

Prime Minister and Elections
I deleted the "first popularly-elected female Prime Minister" reference. It's often stated but not accurate. Prime Ministers aren't elected by popular vote in New Zealand so this comment is misleading. The actual process is far more indirect. People vote for a party at an election. Parties then organise with enough likeminded parties to get the support of 50% of MPs. Part of that organisation involves determining the senior partner in any coalition. That senior partner's party leader becomes the Prime Minister. Ben Arnold


 * Perhaps, then, it could be changed to something like: "She became the first female leader to become Prime Minister as the result of a general election." This removes the reference to direct election (which is indeed an error), but still distinguishes her elevation from that of Jenny Shipley (as they did indeed gain the premiership in different circumstances). -- Vardion 23:49, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * That seems fair enough. It's probably worth expanding too, to explain the contrast. "Jenny Shipley had become Prime Minister two(?) years earlier after a leadership coup in the National Party." Ben Arnold 02:44, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * That sounds fine. (And it was indeed two years earlier - almost exactly two years, in fact). Feel free to add that in wherever you think is best. -- Vardion 06:11, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Helen Clark's Title
Does anyone know why the national media always refer to her as "Miss Clark" despite the fact she has been married for years? -- FirstPrinciples 18:53, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * Presumably because she still uses her maiden name. She couldn't really be "Mrs Clark" - she'd have to be "Mrs Davis". Proteus (Talk) 18:58, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * That makes sense. (I always felt it was a little odd!) -- FirstPrinciples 04:27, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't she be Dr. Clark? She has a PhD. (Alphaboi867 04:35, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC))


 * Does she? I can't actually find any mention of it &mdash; she has an MA (Hons) from Auckland University, and I know she started work on a PhD, but I can't actually find anything confirming that she finished it. I could be wrong, but her first attempt to win a seat (Piako, 1975) would probably have interrupted any PhD research she was doing, since she only finished her MA in 1974. -- Vardion 05:47, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I believe Vardion is right and IMO 'Miss' is the PM's own preference. It could be, ironically, something taken from Hollywood actresses—regardless of which husband she was up to, Elizabeth Taylor was always 'Miss Taylor' and never 'Ms', and many used the same convention. Stombs 09:53, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * No, Helen Clark did not complete a PhD. Ms Clark it is. (nicknz 13:37, 26 Feb, 2006 (NZ))

Isn't Helen Clark's husband Peter Davis a health researcher not a sociologist? He served on the Auckland Area Health Board in the late 1980s, and currently works in the health sector.


 * The answer, it seems, is that he's both. According to this, his speciality is "medical sociology" &mdash; the study of how social factors affect people's health. I'll add that to his article. -- Vardion 04:10, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

One thing - the media doesn't usually refer to her as Miss Clark. it uses the term she herself has asked it to use: Ms Clark. Grutness...  wha?  07:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Lecturer
Helen Clark lectured in political science and Auckland Uni, not industrial relations. If people have evidence to the contary please supply it as her offical biography has her as a junior political science lecturer. --Gregstephens 01:40, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Why has no one put how she stopped parliament saying grace before meals? It's a true fact, because she did. And will someone please take that smiling picture of her off this page, until she has had major dental surgery at least? (How did you know I don't like Helen Clark?)Spawn Man 13:39, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Since when do politicians have meals during Parliamentary sittings? Kewpid 13:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Not during Parliamentary sittings!!!. You shouldn't comment on things if you haven't researched it prior. When they sat down for a meal (parliament can go on all day you know!) they used to say grace. Now since the new prime minister came in, Helen Clark, the grace has stopped. Just cause she doesn't believe in the tradition, shouldn't it still be there like it has since the opening of Parliament??Spawn Man 05:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


 * That was precisely my point Spawn. What the heck do MP's meals have to do with grace? They can eat whatever they like whenever they wish to do so, it doesn't have anything to do with parliamentary tradition or procedure. This all sounds very unhinged, and you seem to be scraping the barrel to find ways to insult Helen Clark. Attack her politics if you want, but the stuff about her teeth/family/whatever is really very poor form. Kewpid 04:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well it's my opinion, but you don't have to agree with it. But I know for a fact, because I actually live in New Zealand, that Parliament actually does have parliamentary dinners/meals/lunches. Infact, it was on the New Zealand news last night, that parliament was holding a tax payer's lunch for the new members in parliament. I don't know what your government does for food, but the New Zealand government has parliamentary meals on special occasions. And what does grace have to do with food. I'll answer to the best of my knowledge:
 * Well, before Christ was born, people used to say grace, a prayer to God thanking him for the food, before meals. Christians & Catholics alike used this world wide. When the Europeans came to New Zealand & set up parliament here, they said grace before special parliamentary meals. So from 1840, up until before Helen Clark got elected PM, parliament said grace before their meals. Sort of like Christmas; Why do we have Christmas trees? Because it's a tradition. So just like Christmas trees, saying grace before special parliamentary meals was a tradition. Usually we don't get rid of traditions that have been in place for over 150 years, but Helen Clark thought it wise to. So when she got elected PM, grace before meals stopped.
 * Well I didn't intend for my question to be a 2,000 year history lesson, but that's the way it turned out. I was simply stating that it was an actual fact, & because it is an actual fact, it should be added to her article, negative to Helen Clark or not. I would have just put it in there myself, but I felt like being curtious & ask the masses what they thought first. Obviously that was a bad idea. Spawn Man 01:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, yes, grace was stopped when she became PM. That was at the same time that New Zealand had its first Moslem MP, and IIRC it was stopped for this reason, not for any reason directly connected with Helen Clark. Grutness...  wha?  07:07, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you for this information. I now know the reason behind the stopping of grace. Spawn Man


 * A few questions here: Did she stop it? Yes.  Is it worthy of going onto this page? Probably not.  Why did she do it?  To protect the human rights of non-Christians.
 * The part about human rights is nonsense. After all, a majority of New Zealanders are Christian, and NZ's head of state, the Queen, is 'Defender of the Faith'--of the Anglican faith. And Christian prayers are still said at the opening of every day Parliament meets. A Muslim MP, while entitled to the full privileges of the House, should not be able to thwart tradition so dramatically--in similar fashion, if I were an MP in, say, Jordan or Algeria, I would sit quietly while Islamic prayers were read, and not consider my 'human rights' violated in any way. And, incidentally, the US Congress opens with a prayer too--usually a Christian one. Does this violate the 'human rights' of Jewish Representatives and Senators?

Bias
This whole article shows Helen Clark in a very negative light. She is well respected internationally. I will start removing this POV soon, and redress the balance, when I have some time. Wallie 10:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
 * maybe the best people to write it aren't New Zealanders with strong political feelings then --210.86.70.47 07:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. I wonder who wrote this: "Clark settled out of court with Mr Yelich using taxpayer’s money and further paid him money to keep it secret." 17/10/2005 10:29 GMT+10
 * I agree and have removed it. I suspect Moriori is the source of a lot of problems here.WikiMonster 01:54, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have left a note on WikiMonster's page about our no personal attacks policy. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 02:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Tks for that, he named himself well. He suspects I  am "the source of a lot of problems here".  I have made five edits to her page, and am not responsible for any edit relating to HC settling out of court with anyone. Not sure what his problem is. Moriori 03:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I've given WikiMonster a 24 hour cooling off. Feel free to unblock if you think that's too harsh. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 03:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Considering his subsequent foul abuse, I'm happy to let it go the 24 hrs. We need to be vigilant when he returns. Moriori 08:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * There's no need for you to undo my legitimate edits, Moriori. Perhaps you need a cooling down period? WikiMonster 06:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Infobox President?
Does anyone else think it's rather strange to have the infobox which requires her nationality to be listed as "non-american" and her husband listed as "wife"? I have no problems with the way the infobox appears, only with the markup. This looks like a kluge layered over a template intended for US Presidents. Surely we have a more appropriate template to be used for leaders of other countries.-gadfium 20:02, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, it is rather silly, and the fixed pixel size of the template streches the picture larger than the original size. Onco_p53 23:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I found that rather jarring as well. However, I intend to create an Infobox PM soon. It would apply to all heads of governments in parliamentary systems - well, those that have constituencies at least.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 15:14, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I've added the NZ PM infobox - taken from the Jim Bolger page.Tobit 23:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I meant to follow this up. An Infobox Prime Minister has been created. This will be implemented for all Australian Prime Ministers soon, so maybe it could be used for all Kiwi PM's also.--cj | talk 06:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Criticism removed
Don't be inhibited about replacing this but try not to just add your POV. The comments re micro-management and smoking in bars are just someone's point of view.

The personal criticism is just petty. All PMs in every country are involved in controversy. Clark's involvement in Corngate was marginal. She herself did not receive a driving conviction for Motorcadegate. Paintergate seems long forgotten -- politicians and other celebrities often sign things for auction at charity, (although it is usually assumed that a signature on a painting indicates that the signer painted it, whereas signing a football shirt isn't usually interpreted as indicating who the tailor was), and there is no evidence that she was trying to defraud anyone. There is also Christmastreegate -- she was criticised for not putting lights on the trees outside Premier House one Christmas -- and apparently gracebeforemealsinparliamentgate too. Neil Leslie 02:59, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Outside, not inside
My edit summary when I reverted to include Clark's IMDB entry said if someone has their own entry in a different area of Wikipedia, then we should link to it. I meant if they had an entry specifically about them outside Wiki, like the IMDB page. Don't know that she merits an IMDB entry, but it exists so it is reasonable to link to it. Now, is there such a thing as a IADB? (Internet Artists Data Base)? Moriori 19:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

"Leadership Style"?
It seems a bit misleading to have a section entitled "Leadership Style" that just highlights the bad things associated with Ms. Clark? Does signing artwork etc. really have much to do with her style of leadership? Surely a section labelled such should also include information actually about her leadership style, or how her MPs see her as a leader? --Loopy 18:34, 31 October 2005 (UTC)