Talk:Helena Paparizou/Archive 1

Greek or Swedish
I don't think most people would consider someone born and raised in Sweden to be Greek. I commented upon this in the revision history. But apparently there's someone who disagrees with this and thus changed the sentence back without explanation. Until you have some proper reasoning behind your opinion to put forth please refrain from editing. Dsandlund 17:12, July 3 2005 (GMT+1)
 * From the article: "Helena Paparizou was born to Greek parents in Gothenburg, Sweden, where she grew up." Revolución 12:24, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Helena is Greek (both her parents were actually born in Greece), however she has the Swedish nationality and has stated that Sweden holds a special place in her heart, that's why people usually refer to her as Greek-Swedish. Generally, most Greek immigrants consider themselves Greek and that's why we have the article Greek Diaspora. ELouka, 11:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, she is Greek. Sweden has a big place in her heart and she has a "Swedish outlook on life", but when asked if she was Swedish, she said no. She is not even considered Swedish so I would remove Greek-Swedish and replace it with just Greek.81.110.77.105 13:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, she was born in Sweden and holds Swedish citizenship, not Greek, so in accordance with Manual of Style (biographies) it should be stated that she is Swedish and not Greek ("Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)").
 * May I also ask for the source where she says that she doesn't consider herself to be Swedish? /Slarre 03:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Elena lives in Greece perminitly now, and plans to live there even when she has children. She has said this many times.  I think she also holds Greek citizenship now, since she was the official ambassador of Greek tourism. I also have to add that all the articles on  refer to Elena has "Swedish-Greek". 68.37.213.40 20:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * OK....I was before the one that suggested leaving it at "Greek/Swedish" and was not the one that removed the Swedish part. But, I saw something interesting.  On the clip of Elena performing live in Sweden for the Athletic Championships, (from NRT in Sweden) when she starts to perform, it actually states Elena is from Greece and Greek by putting a "GRE" on the bottom.  As well, they also put country of origon for other singers that day.  So the official Swedish broadcaster even considers Elena Greek....  68.37.213.40 15:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree.

"Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Well, her Greek heritage is notable; she considers herself Greek, I consider her Greek, the world considers her Greek, and Sweden considers her Greek! Her career and life is now based in Greece. I'm going to remove 'Swedish'.

213.7.36.59


 * No, she is not considered "Greek" in Sweden. The most natural would be to only say that she is Swedish, since that is where she was born and where she grew up, but I can live with a compromise saying "Greek/Swedish". Please stop this pro-Greek nationalist propaganda pushing now. /Slarre 02:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Pro-Greek nationalist propaganda' – OK that's WAY too over the top. It's just a nationality, nothing to do with politics. I don't know where you get the idea from. I may aswell just call you a racist for the heck of it seeing as you like slandering so much.

I disagree; I believe it would be far more natural to put Greek: she is Greek (politically and ethnically), she is a citizen of Greece, her career is in Greece, she herself considers herself Greek. The only tie to Sweden is the place of birth, which, I believe, doesn't hold more significance than the others I stated above. I remember an interview with her band Antique on the Oikotimes website once about her 2001 appearance in Eurovision and the interviewee said "Well, you're representing Greece, but you're actually Swedish, right?" and they both said (at the same time "No, we're Greek, but we were raised in Sweden". Birth place does not prevail over national identity. I'm sorry but I'm reverting this. She is considered worldwide a GREEK singer.

213.7.36.59

It should say Greek, that is her ethnicity. i live in the US and am half greek and a few other nationalities. I am an American, but if someone asks me my nationality i would give the whole list. I live in the US, but the only way to be a native would be if i was a native american. I am an immigrant, well my family is, just as Elena is. She is not a natural Swede, she just lived there. This is starting to sound like my substitute teacher who had no apparent idea what a nationality was. she claimed that she was whatever she was a citizen of. That's not how it works. Elena is Greek, you can say she lived in Sweden, but not that she was Swedish.

Helena
It appears from the revision history that there is some disagreement with the preferred name being Helena or Elena. It does seem odd that the node is called Elena, and the first sentence then states that the correct name is Helena, with it sometimes being spelled as Elena. Does anybody have a comment on this?
 * Her official website says "Helena". Revolución 18:12, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Danielsmith 23:51, 21 May 2005 (UTC)


 * In Greek it's &#917;&#955;&#949;&#957;&#945; &#928;&#945;&#960;&#945;&#961;&#943;&#950;&#959;&#965;, which I would say is pretty clearly transliterated to Elena Paparizou, but I don't know enough about Greek pronunciation to know if there is an 'h' sound inserted in front of it or something. Strange. &mdash; Trilobite (Talk) 02:40, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * She is Swedish anyhow and her name is written there as "Helena" - so it doesn't matter how transliteration of Greek version goes. Looks like in some web sites her name is spelled as Elena, which is not, correct. I stand corrected. Helena is her artist name (which of course is still how this article has to be named). --Tbonefin 04:33, 23 May 2005 (UTC)Tbonefin 16:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * In Greek there is no H any more, so Helena is &#904;&#955;&#949;&#957;&#945;. If you are to say her 'international' name, it's Helena, if you are to transcribe the (modern) Greek name, it's Elena. I am Greek and IMHO Both are correct. PS: Anyone thinks about putting a better picture of her? Look at her site and you will see that this one is not that flattering since she is far more beautiful than this. 62.74.5.112 19:17, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Revolución 20:12, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Here, much better

All greek words starting with dasía (Spiritus asper) in polytonic orthography are written with an [h] instead of the dasía, so &#7961;&#955;&#941;&#957;&#951; becomes Helen as &#7953;&#955;&#953;&#954;&#972;&#960;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#957; becomes helicopter. Modern monotonic orthography (adopted since 1982) simplified the way for spelling, but words passed to english and other languages before that, have already a way of spelling. So Helena is just as good as Elena (some would say it's closer to the original). —Geraki 2005-05-22 T 21:07 Z

The is redicolous. She has claimed on numerous occusations that her name is Elena, and that it was the record company who forced her to include an 'H'. See for example http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/noje/story/0,2789,648207,00.html. " Elena säger: Jag fortsätter att heta Elena, men för att folk ska kunna uttala mitt namn så har jag lagt till "H" which translates.

Elena says. My name is still Elena, however, for pronouciation purposes an "H" was added.

Her name in English is HELENA so i guess in Wikipedia it should be Helena instead of Elena.Even her website uses "H".--Chronisgr 22:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Disagree completely. She doesn't have "an English name;" her name is transliterated from her original name, which is Έλενα – which in English is Elena. The songstress herself has said this and that her name is not Helena – she was forced to use it by her record label. 81.110.77.105 13:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

redirect
I tried to create a redirect with her name written in greek. I'm not sure, if I managed to do so. I wonder, if it is even possible. --Easyas12c 06:17, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Her Name and Nationality
Definitely time to set the record straight about her name: it's 'Έλενα' in Greek, which transliterates as 'Elena'. However, a few decades ago, the name was spelt ̉Ελενα (the only difference is the accent at the start of her name) and was pronounced 'Helena'. However, the ̉ accent, along with others, were dropped from the language as it changed, leaving only one accent, and the name was pronounced 'Elena'. All these changes happened before the singer was even born! But some English (and other Europeans using the Latin alphabet) continued to use the old spelling (I suppose they didn't see a point in changing it seeing as it wasn't their language that made these changes) so it has still stuck.

As well as the above, Έλενα Παπαρίζου was born and brought up in Sweden, where there already is a female name of 'Helena', and is pronounced very closely to 'Elena' (some people wouldn't even notice a difference), so I suspect a lot of Swedes mis-spelled the name anyway and it seems to have stuck. It's possible that if she was brought up in England she would be known as 'Helen' but that doesn't make it correct.

Both are currently in use, but I will point out that 'Helena' is wrong! 'Elena' is correct.

As regards to what nationality she is, she is Greek. Yes she was born in Sweden, she may (I don't know for sure) be a citizen of Sweden, but in what way does that make her Swedish. If someobody says to you that he or she is half German and half Italian, does that mean that half of the body was born in one country and the other half in the other country? And as the saying goes, blood is thicker than water.

It's quite possible that Elena Paparizou feels or considers herself Swedish, or that Sweden is her homeland, but she is Greek. It's possible (and not wrong) that she says that she is a Swedish-Greek, which would suggest that she is a Greek born and/or brought up in Sweden, vice-versa, or somebody that is half Swedish and half Greek. I am half Cypriot and half English, consider both countries to be my homelands, and like to call myself an English-Cypriot. It's just the same with Elena.

---> But there's still a huge difference between merely being *born* somewhere and being born and brought up there and living there as an adult until plucked for Eurovision by your parents' homeland.

Is this a JOKE?
"and has mentioned that she'd love to make a song sung in every language in the world."

By this does she mean she would like to make a song and sing it in every world language (which would not be possible) or does she mean that she would like to make a song that is translated into every world language (which again would not be possible).

Use your common sense. It means that it would be her dream to sing a song that's lyrics are made up of words in every language of the world. It doesn't mean it is possible to do that. I'm pretty sure that she already knows she can't make a song out of every language in the world, it's just something she'd love to do if it was possible!

I've edited it now anyway.

Leave Her Name Alone!
Whoever it is who continues to change the spelling of Elena Paparizou's name on the article can you please stop it!

I (many other, and Elena herself) have stated in this discussion that Elena is her name and why it is so commonly mis-spelled.

I've now added a title named 'Her Name' on the article to explain why her name is mis-spelled. Please don't edit her name (again!) and leave it as Elena.

Thanks.

Leon.

Elena Was Not Born in Gothenburg
In her show Taxidevontas stin Stokholmi me tin Elena Paparizou (Travelling to Stockholm with Elena Paparizou), Paparizou says that she was born in Boros (sp? I'm just going on how it sounds to my ears), raised in Gothenburg, and moved to Stockholm in 1999. The link is here, but I'm afraid it's all in Greek (with a phrase or two in Swedish, too):

Cypriot stud
 * IT's spelled Borås. Pictureuploader 04:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah OK. If I am not mistaken the Swedish 'å' sounds pretty much the same to the English 'o', so my estimated guess wasn't so bad :-D 81.110.78.133 19:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of the Infobox
The "Origin" field of the Infobox is for the place where the artist was born and grew up. This is made crystal clear at Template_talk:Infobox_Band. Repeatedly reverting to enter "Greece" in this field is disruptive, and could be construed as vandalism. Please desist. --Mais oui! 09:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Andithessis
Are we sure it's spelled "Andithessis" I thought it would be "Antithessis." I know her website says it is "Andithessis." but I think that might just be a misspelling. --Dakart 22:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The site has a number of spelling mistakes (including her name for one!). The correct transliteration of Αντιθέσεις is Antithesis.Cypriot stud
 * Actually there is no 'correct' transliteration. It could also be Antitheseis :) Anyway, it's more 'correct' thatn Adithessis. Pictureuploader 09:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, not gonna lie, the CD says "Taxidi Sto Agnosto" im pretty sure the song's lyrics are "taxidi GIA to Agnosto." There are def mistakes

References/Sources
Anybody noticed that the whole article has not a single citing of references or sources??? This is against the rule per WP:REF. Not that I mind, just mentioning the rules Pictureuploader 09:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Releases
Does anyone knows if Mambo has been released in Finland Denmark and Norway?--Chronisgr 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Name
If all her official English language releases, and English language media, call her "Helena," who are we to differ? It is not a "common misspelling" if her own record company is releasing her music under that name. john k 19:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, but not for the same reasons. The reason I would support a change to Helena Paparizou, is that, with Sony BMG releasing under that name, she is most likely better known as that. Then it's a simple case of enforcing Wikipedia policy (which is to name it as what they're most commonly known as). Personally I'd prefer to use her actual name, but as that would be a policy vio, we shouldn't. - Рэд хот (t • c • l • e) 14:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyone else think it might be a good idea to have another poll on what name to use? Although I think by Wikipedia policy it has to be Helena Paparizou. - Рэд хот (t • c • e) 14:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * At the very least, we shouldn't call it a "common misspelling," since she's actually having music released under that name. john k 16:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah. I agree. But we'll need to have a poll to back this up.

What we need is group 2 and 3 to keep it at what is agreed (but anyone who falls into type 3 will need to see an agreement to change). So should I propose a move? - Рэд хот (t • c • e) 19:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) There are some users who will try to force the name they prefer no matter what. (We'll just have to bear that)
 * 2) Then there are some who will use the name they believe is what the article should use (as in what should be used under policy, which I think should be Helena).
 * 3) But then there are others who will just revert changes unless they see a consensus to change.
 * 4) And finally, people who'll just won't change it (right now I act as part of this group as changing is always so controversial no matter what you change it to)
 * I think that is very false. Elena and media in Sweden said their selfs (look at source on page) that the H is only added not to confuse her name with other more common names as Jelena and such.  Her name, and the name that is on her birth certificate is Elena and she uses that when introducing herself and so forth. 68.37.213.40 01:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Poll: Greek or Swedish
I think it is time to make a poll. There seems to be a minor conflict on whether or not Elena Paparizou should bare the nationality Greek or Swedish in the opening paragraph. I personally believe she should be Greek, because she has Greek citizenship, considers herself Greek (and not Swedish), lives in Greece, has had most of her career in Greece, is world-wide considered Greek, and is of Greek. Her only connection to Sweden is that it is her birthplace and where she was raised, which I don't think are nearly as important as the factors for calling her Greek. I don't think Swedish-born Greek is necessary because Swedish-born is not a nationality and her borthplace is understood by "born in Boras, Sweden)".

Please vote. I think five votes will decide it. So, Greek or Swedish?

Cypriot stud 14:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Greek. For the reasons I've stated above. Cypriot stud


 * Since she is a citizen of both Sweden and (apparently) Greece, it would be most correct and NPOV to simply leave it at Greek-Swedish. Also, polls are not the best way to solve things, see Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Just get over it. /Slarre 14:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

We have discussed this a lot and are not any better off, so I think a poll is the final solution. Wikilaw says that ethnic origin can be used in the nationality tag if it is particularly relevant to the person's significance or fame (like Rosa Banks being Black, for example, not just American). Putting Swedish has no logic as it is not relevant to Elena Paparizou's fame. Her only connection is birth and citizenship (as you say. I don't know if this is true but I trust you on this one because it is quite likely she has Swedish citizenship). Her being Greek is very much significant to her rise in the music career. Her band typically represented her Greek heritage. Since her Antique days she has been living in Greece permanantly, represented Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest (twice), become the ambassador of Greek tourism etc. as well as correcting people who call her Swedish. There is no need at all to have any link to Sweden in her nationality tag. I'm reverting it. There's no logic to put 'Swedish-born' there, as well as the fact Wikipedia prefers single nationality tags (avoiding 'x-born').

Cypriot stud


 * Many people cannot understand the difference. If Helena had only the swedish citizenship and lived in Sweden permanently, then of course we should write that she is a Swedish of greek descent or Greek-Swedish (as for example in the case of Jennifer Aniston, she is an American of greek descent or Greek-American). Paparizou was born and raised in Sweden, her perents are Greeks, she doesn't live in Sweden permanently (she has returned to Greece), she has both citizenships. In this case Swedish/Greek shows that she is of mixed origin but she is not, she is of greek origin. So, don't try to give a wrong idea to the readers because of your(generally speaking) wish to make her a swedish. She is a Greek who was born in Sweden and this is what describes exactly the reality. Sthenel 14:01, 11 January 2007


 * She has both Swedish and Greek citizenship. That's a fact, like it or not, even if it doesn't suit your agenda to make her "Greek-only". Plus, all the other Wikipedias mentions her as Greek-Swedish. /Slarre 18:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you understand the difference? Actually when she was asked if she is Greek or Swedish she answered "Greek, because this is where I come from". By the way why there should be a fight for anything greek or related to Greece in wikipedia? What I say is clear and someone should stop this. "Greek singer born in Sweden" is 100% clear, "Greek-Swedish" may mean a lot of different things. When there is a problem with a term which is used, you have to write it in a way that it won't confuse anyone. So, don't write the word "swedish" that you love so much. You can like and admire her even if she's not your cousin. We won't ask for everyone's identity card due to write his/her origin here. Sthenel 18:22, 11 January 2007

I've never seen Elena Paparizou referred to as Greek-Swedish; I don't really care, though, because it doesn't change her needing to be labelled Greek on her article. What other Wikipedians call her is totally besides the point.

Sthenel, although I appreciate your support for her to be called Greek, "Greek singer, born in Sweden" is also unnecessary; readers will understand her birthplace from "born in Borås, Sweden". Her nationality is Greek. Full stop. Her Greek ethnic identity, success in Greece, career in Greece etc. are far more relevant than her birthplace, adding to the fact she has Greek citizenship. There is no reason for her to have any reference to Sweden in her nationality. This will be understood anyway.

Cypriot stud 19:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Her official site says "Helena Paparizou, Greece's No1 and ultimate pop star, was born and raised in Sweden by Greek parents.". She has made here career in Greece, lives in Greece, is a citizen of Greece, helped the Greek Government (tourism) and in countless interviews has referred to herself as Greek.  Even Swedish sites such as http://www.aftonbladet.se refer to Elena as Greek.  She has even said that when she gets married, she wants to live in Greece so her baby can be Greek too. Even the national Swedish broadcaster labeled her as Greek origin next to her name while performing at the European Athletics Competition. Greekboy 19:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * She is never referred as Swedish and having the swedish citizenship means nothing. Everyone can study in a foreign country and take the local citizenship, it doesn't mean that his/her origin changes. Personally, I've met her several times because I have a common friend with her and she is so "fanatic" Greek something which was obvious during her celebrations in Eurovision. But she loves Sweden and this country means a lot to her, but calling her Swedish is too far from reality. Jennifer Aniston's case is very useful for the other side to understand the difference. Despina Vandi was born and lived for some years in Germany but she is not called Greek-German. Sthenel 20:13, 11 January 2007
 * See . Origin field is were the act or artist was founded and makes their carrier and NOT their birth country.  So that solves 1 problem. Greekboy 21:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Manual of Style (biographies) states that:
 * "Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)" Thus, her Greek ethnicity is irrelevant. She is still referred to as Greek-Swedish by most international sources, in Sweden she is commonly referred to as "Swedish with Greek parents". /Slarre 22:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't agree with this infobox. We talk about persons, not machines, and the origin of a person has only one meaning. They should rename this section in the infobox. There is a singer in Greece, Tamta, who started her career in Greece and she lives in Greece but she is Georgian by origin, not Greek because of the above fact. Sthenel 21:31, 11 January 2007


 * @ Sthenel Tamta origin would be considered as Greece since she started her carrier and founded it in Greece. Greekboy 22:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying that the term "origin" has no relationship with this content. Our origin is not where we started to work or having success. But since the infobox is like this, I can do nothing about it. The birthplace in other greek singers is mentioned at the top of the article next to the date of birth, so we should put it back. Sthenel 22:07, 11 January 2007
 * If you look at the examples provided at the info box page, they only list the birth date at the top, and then leave the location (and date again) under the bio. Greekboy 22:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about the article not the infobox, in most of the Greek singers the birthplace is mentioned in the first line next to the date. Check it. # This infobox is a mess.In its page they have an example of Maria Carey's infobox and in the origin line, her birthplace is written. In Sakis Rouvas infobox next to origin, Corfu is written (birthplace too). In each person something different has been put so instead of changing them, it would be a good idea to make another infobox (if it was possible), more explicit and acceptable, for the Greek singers. Sthenel 22:39, 11 January 2007


 * The Maria Carey example is where she started her carrier. Look up her info.  She was born and started her carer in the same place.  About the Greek ones, they are all messed up.  Someone (like me if I have time) needs to go in and change them. Greekboy 23:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You know, whatever exists in wikipedia doesn't mean that it's 100% right. So it's useless to change all of them according to something that is disputed. We won't change the terms origin, nationality or ethnicity according to where someone works. Let's not change them until we have thought of a good idea. Sthenel 23:06, 11 January 2007


 * But the origin field is outlined in what should go there by people high up in wikipedia. That part is 100 percent right.  So Elena's should be Greece.  Birth is Sweden, Origin Greece.  They dont put Birth and Origin in the same info box to repeat the same exact information. It says for origin to put: "The city from which the singer or group originated (that is, the city where the group was founded; or the city where individual performers started their career, should it not match the location of their birth)."  Elena started her solo-musical career in Greece in 2003. Greekboy 23:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, if I was a music freak who only wants to know where someone started singing, it's ok. It matches only to a group's infobox (origin of the group=where they were formed or became successful). But when we talk about a person we say "he is Greek", "he is American", "he is French" etc and we don't mean the place of work or anything else, but the origin. When we talk about a Greek we mean that he is of greek ancestry. If someone doesn't know what "origin" means, he should open a dictionary instead of looking at the "Infobox of music artists". We are talking about different things, Greekboy. It's pointless. Sthenel 00:00, 12 January 2007


 * This is how it is. The Birth space in the info-box is for the date and location of birth.  The origin part is for where the singer started his/her career.  This is how Wikipedia says to do it.  Greekboy 00:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Quoting Slarre: ''Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Opening paragraph states that: "Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)" Thus, her Greek ethnicity is irrelevant. She is still referred to as Greek-Swedish by most international sources, in Sweden she is commonly referred to as "Swedish with Greek parents".''

She is a citizen of Greece, so why do you (or anybody else, for that matter) have the right to say that 'Swedish' overrides that fact, and is more important? Elena Paparizou is a citizen of Sweden and Greece, so we have to come to a decision as to what suits her best: 'Swedish' or 'Greek'. Wikipedia typically doesn't prefer double nationality tags (i.e. 'Swedish-Greek') plus we don't need one anyway. Paparizou's only links to Sweden are birthplace, place where she was raised, and citizenship. On the other hand, Paparizou is of Greek origin, lives in Greece, has Greek citizenship, built her career in Greece, refers to/considers herself as Greek, is referred to/considered as Greek.

Your constant putting of the Wikilaw which says citizenship is meant by nationality is totally pointless, and your argument that 'Greek' should be left out because ethnicity is not generally emphasised is void; even if 'Greek' on the grounds of ethnicity were irrelevant (which it isn't, as it is very significant to her rise to fame in Antique), it is also her nationality and citizenship, just as much as 'Swedish'. Messing with her nationality tag by including 'Swedish' also holds no ground, because it is very clear that she was born in Borås, Sweden. There is nothing in being born in Sweden that is relevant to her fame. I'm sorry but there are three of us here who believe her nationality tag should be 'Greek', which is the majority vote, so I therefore propose that this article be unlocked and 'Swedish' subsequently removed from Elena Paparizou's nationality tag. You have failed to give any other argument as to why 'Swedish' should be included in the opening paragraph apart from the quote from the Wikilaw, which, as I have explained above, actually doesn't prove that 'Greek' should be removed.

Cypriot stud 18:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "She is a citizen of Greece, so why do you (or anybody else, for that matter) have the right to say that 'Swedish' overrides that fact, and is more important?"


 * I do not say that the fact that she is Swedish overrides the fact that she has Greek citizenship, nor that is more important. I simply say that her links to both countries are very strong, and it would be against WP:NPOV to only include the "Greek" perspective. You are right that double nationality tags are generally not used, but in this case I'd say that it's highly justified due to her double citizenships and strong links to both countries.


 * "Paparizou's only links to Sweden are birthplace, place where she was raised, and citizenship."


 * Rubbish. The fact is that Antique was essentially a Swedish group, it was were it was started, were they recorded their albums and were they rose to fame. Elena did still live in Sweden when she got her breakthrough with Antique. So saying that her "only links" to Sweden are "birthplace, place where she was raised, and citizenship" is quite of an understatement, to put it mildly.


 * It is interesting to note also that all the people who wants to remove "Swedish" and put only "Greek" in the introduction are all from Greece themselves. I don't say I'm not biased either, since I'm from Sweden, but I think we should try to get some other people with a different perspective involved to solve this issue in a better way, as Wikipedia is not a democracy and polls should generally be avoided to solve conflicts.


 * /Slarre 22:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I vote to put only Greek. The link you provided about the opening paragraph says: "Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.".  Elena became notable while a citizen of Greece and has made her career here and lives here.  So it should be left as Greek. Greekboy 00:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Elena became notable while a citizen of Greece" - Not true, see my comment above. /Slarre 22:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Can we please get this article taken from protection and edited to remove 'Swedish' from the nationality tag. Cypriot stud 17:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * According to Swedish government "Swedish citizenship laws are based on the principle of descent which means that citizenship is acquired at birth if one parent is a Swedish citizen." . Was one of her parents a Swedish citizen when she was born? Did she get Swedish citizenship by other means? JRSP 18:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * JRSP. Elena has a Greek citizenship when she started in Greece solo.  When she won Eurovision and became noticeable, it was as a Greek with Greek citizenship.  According to wikipedia, it should be the citizenship where the artist became most noticeable, which is Greece. Greekboy 20:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Most likely one or both of her parents had Swedish citizenship at the time of her birth. /Slarre 22:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is clear to me that according to Greek Nationality Law, she is a Greek citizen. Swedish citizenship is unclear, I think this fact must be sourced in the article otherwise it should be removed as being born in Sweden is not enough to have a Swedish citizenship. JRSP 02:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * On a second thought, it is quite possible that she got a Swedish citizenship for living there enough time. I have read that she used to be a member of Antique. Was that duo active in Sweden, Greece or both? Have you considered, for instance, saying she is a Greek and Swedish singer, using "and" instead of a hyphen? JRSP 04:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * JRSP. With Antique she was active in both Greece and Sweden, and also represented Greece in Eurovision 2001 as Antique.  The biography/article focus mostly on Elena as a solo artist.  Elena became most notable when she won the 2005 Eurovision song contest.  She was a Greek citizen then, and said she was Greek too.  Further more international media referenced her as Greek.  This past year when she sang at the European Championships in Athletics the official Swedish broadcaster referenced her as a Greek singer, even putting a "GRE" next to her name.  Greekboy 06:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Forgive my ignorance, I am neither Swedish nor Greek and actually had never heard of Ms Paparizou until now. As I told before, I have no doubt she is Greek but there is a strong possibility she is also Swedish. Could some of you provide some links to reliable international media (neither Greek nor Swedish, please, and no blogs BTW ) refering to her nationality. For instance, I could get this BBC report refering to her as "Swedish-born" (but not explicitly as "Swedish"). To solve this dispute, I consider all parties must show sources supporting their position. JRSP 10:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The Athens News Agency, the major news agency in Greece, refers to her as "Greek-Swedish". The two largest (non-tabloid) newspapers in Sweden, Dagens Nyheter and Svenska Dagbladet refer to her as "Greek-Swedish" and "Swedish-Greek" respectively. The widely acclaimed encyclopedia Nationalencyklopedin refer to her as "Swedish singer with Greek parents". The product description at Amazon.com uses the description "Swedish/Greek", etc. She has also herself stated in an interview with Sveriges Television that she considers herself to have "two homecountries".


 * Regarding the citizenship. Swedish nationality law allows for dual citizenship, as does Greek. Also the Swedish state can't revoke a citizenship unless demanded by the individual or the new country were the person became a citizen, and it seems very unlikely in this case that Elena should have revoked her Swedish citizenship, as she still lives occasionally in Sweden and has an apartment at Kungsholmen in Stockholm. A search at site Upplysning.se, a credit information registry containing all citizens of Sweden, also proves that this is the case. /Slarre 17:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Since she has the greek citizenship for sure, she is exclusively of greek ancestry, she lives in Greece, she says that she is Greek and she has represented two times Greece in Eurovision contest, the word "Swedish" is unnecessary and Sweden should only be referred as the birthplace. Around the world the vast majority refer to her as a Greek who was born in Sweden (few mention her birthplace though), some as Greek-Swedish and few as a Swedish of greek origin (she has the greek citizenship so she is not Swedish). We won't decide according to some resources, everyone can say anything. The facts are clear, plus she has never call herself Swedish or something. Sthenel 13:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia states that the nationality line should be reserved for what country the person was a citizen (and where) when they became famous. Elena became famous in Greece, and as a Greek citezen.  Most media sources, source her as Greek.  Even Swedish ones too. (as stated before). Greekboy 17:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia states that the nationality line should be reserved for what country the person was a citizen (and where) when they became famous. According to that she should be referred to as both Swedish and Greek (I guess she has been Greek since she was born and became also a Swedish citizen before she was famous). Check for instance Brendan Fraser, the article says he is a Canadian-American although he became famous in the USA. JRSP 22:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No. It means what country she specifically became famous in.  When Elena won Eurovision she became famous mostly in Greece.  Even before that, she was famous in Greece.  She launched her solo career in Greece, has released 2 solo Greek CDs, is plannings a 3rd this year, and sings in Greece every winter for 4 days a weeks from about Nov.-March.  Elena is now only planning her foray into international market with the release of her first solo-English album "The Game of Love". (Not the album "My Number One" wasnt a real solo album, but just a complication of songs).  Elena's life is in Greece now too.  She has a home there, and lives there with her finance.  She has said in interviews that she plans to stay in Greece and when she has a baby (eventually) her parents will move from Sweden too.  Elena's whole life and music career is now in Greece.  All her sponsors are there too.  Sweden for her now is just a second market along with the international market that she plans to try to explore.  Her main label in Sony BMG Greece too.  Further more most people just know Elena as Greek.  Some will add in Swedish born (mostly people from Sweden) but no one calls her Greek-Swedish.  Now if it is the case to put Swedish born in the article, I dont think its really needed.  It clearly states she was born in Sweden 2 times specifically, as well as other accounts in the article. Greekboy 22:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * All this supports she is Greek for sure but does not contradict she is Swedish. Considering that both countries allow multiple citizenship, she can be 100% Greek and 100% Swedish without any conflict. Regarding the sources provided by Slare, I would discard the Swedish newspapers and encyclopedia (no doubts about their quality but they could be biased in this case) but I consider Slare has a point with Athens News Agency. JRSP 22:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * May I point out that the Athens News Agency article isnt even from the Athens News Agency website? Greekboy 23:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point. Is HR-net reliable or not? Other questions: Is there an agreement that she is Greek (without prejudice to the possibility that she might also be Swedish)? JRSP 00:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ehh? The text says that it's from the ANA website. Quote: "From: The Athens News Agency at ". /Slarre 00:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But it is not from the ANA website. I mean link wise.  It can't be found there either. Greekboy 03:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Can HR-net be considered a reliable source? JRSP 03:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * For me, even if I wasnt part of any dispute, I would have to say no it can not be. This website does not provide the source links, so the articles can not be considered as true in some cases. Greekboy 03:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * A tricky issue, indeed. I got one Ukrainian source saying she's Swedish and an Australian one saying she's Greek JRSP 04:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The Australian article is saying what we are saying in this discussion. Most international media know Elena as a Greek artist born in Sweden. Further more I found this BBC article that calls her Greek .  I also came across a very recent Swedish article calling Elena Greek too .  It says she is a Swedish-born Greek.  (It also talks about her super-stardom in Greece).  So basically we have found more article supporting that she is a Swedish-born Greek which is what we have been saying all along. Furthermore, here is a screen shot of the European Athletics Championship that took place in Sweden where they put a "GRE" next to Elena's name for Greece or Greek artist .  Here is that same picture bigger but pixilated a little . Greekboy 04:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * How would you like to change the present version of the article? JRSP 12:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would change it to put a Greek artist. There is really no need to add in the Swedish born, since it is clear in 2 different sections in the beginning of the article that she is born in Sweden. Greekboy 13:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is there no reason to add that she is Swedish born? Please respect Wikipedia guidelines and the opinion of neutral people. Please see the thread on the village pump Village_pump_%28assistance%29.

Experienced editors have given the opinion that it would be dishonest not to mention that she is Swedish born. Not only was she born in Sweden: she was raised there -- which must have contributed to who she is.

Even her own website defines her as "Helena Paparizou, Greece's No1 and ultimate pop star, was born and raised in Sweden by Greek parents.". But we should not???

STOP STUPID POLLING. RESPECT WIKIPEDIA'S NEUTRAL UNBIASED EDITORS.

Fred-Chess 15:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow. That was kind of harsh.  If you had read the whole discussion, you would have seen the reasoning behind it.  You can put that there, but then you would be stating 3 times in the beginning part of the article that she is born in Sweden.  Under early life, it says she is born in Sweden.  On the right hand side in the artist table, it list's birth as Sweden too.  Listing it yet another time would be a little redundant don't you think? Greekboy 18:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * How would you like to change the present version[...]? JRSP. I would change it to put a Greek artist. [...] Greekboy . Do you think her connection to Sweden should not be mentioned in the lead? JRSP 20:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the thing is, it is mentioned 2 times in the beginning of the page (and a visible Swedish Flag too) plus if you read the article, it is mentioned again. I think it would be a little repetitive. Greekboy 20:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

This conversation is endless. In most artists' articles it's like this: X is an American... of irish origin. Paparizou has the greek citizenship, we don't know if she has the swedish right now. So the best way to begin the article is: Paparizou is a Greek-Swedish singer of greek origin. But it doesn't make sense and if we wanna be neutral, we cannot leave it just "Greek-Swedish" without mentioning her ancestry and make people think that she has a greek and a swedish parent. So, she is a Greek who was born in Sweden. This is my opinion Sthenel 20:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Even though I think it is repetitive this way, what about "Elena Paparizou (Greek: Έλενα Παπαρίζου; born January 31, 1982 in Borås, Sweden) is a Greek singer, best known.....". I should note that Wikipedia articles dont have where the singer was born in the opening line, but rather in the early life section and the side table... Greekboy 21:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You must consider there are different levels of interest in the article. Of course, you have readers interested in Elena Paparizou who will read all the article, but some others will just read the lead and that's why a good lead must be 1) informative: a good synthesis of the most important points of the article and 2) motivating: the lead should make casual readers to become interested in reading the rest of the article. Of course, it should also be short, but 2 or 3 paragraphs is fine. I consider you can add some more info to it and the double citizenship issue is actually an interesting aspect. I think mentioning it in the lead would help your article JRSP 21:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In most articles the birthplace is not referred in the opening line and only their origin is written, because we don't have the chance to find their identity cards and check if they have a different citizenship or not. Paparizou's article seems to be an ecxeption because some people want to stress her Swedish citizenship because she won the Eurovision. Only Americans are referred as "Americans of something origin" but this is not in the opening line again. In Paparizou nationality (citizenship) and origin (ethnicity) coincide, so Swedish (I repeat if it still exists) is not necessary. But it's worthless. Sthenel 22:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, Manual of Style (biographies) specifies that the opening paragraph should specify the nationality of the person when he or she became notable, and that ethnicity should not be mentioned unless it is particularly relevant to the person's notability. It is not the normal case to even consider the person's ethnicity in the opening paragraph, as that guideline makes clear. Further, to my mind, it would be misleading to describe a person who was born and grew up in Sweden simply as "Greek." Upbringing, I think, is significant to most readers. --Tkynerd 04:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm. I just found this video on youtube .  It is an interview with International Media, and the reporter says we are in your home country.  She does not correct him, or add in anything about Sweden, but goes on and says 'Welcome to my home country Greece in Athens'. It is right in the beginning. Greekboy 22:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly! Sthenel 22:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So? That doesn't prove much. She has stated in another interview that she considers herself to have "two homecountries".
 * The crucial and most important factor however here is:
 * * According to Wikipedia guidelines, the introduction text should state where the individual is a citizen.
 * * Paparizou is a citizen of both Sweden and Greece.
 * * As JRSP has already stated above, there are many other examples of articles where people are given a "double nationality".
 * It's as simple as that really. /Slarre 01:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand that dual citizenship is baffling to some people but I am a natural born citizen of two different countries and I've never have any conflict with that. There is even a WP article on multiple citizenship. JRSP 01:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

That interview is from a Swedish interview. That could be considered bias. I did not give you a Greek interview, it was actually a German one. It seems that Elena only pulls out the Swedish card when she is interviewing with a Swedish person, or when she is trying to promote her English work in Sweden. Other than that, in international interviews she refers to herself as Greek. I actually have an interview she did on the Australian breakfast show "Sunrise" while down there. She called herself Greek, and made no reference to herself being Swedish. The presenter than read from a paper and said I see that you were born in Sweden, and she stated that she was born in Sweden by Greek parents, but lives in Greece now. I will try to upload the video segment somewhere. Anyway I have no problem really putting the born in Borås, Sweden in the opening, but its just the principal of the matter if she herself calls herself 1 nationality to the media. EDIT: I cant get the video to work from the Swedish site. Is there another link. Greekboy 01:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That interview is from a Swedish interview. That could be considered bias. Not really; a Swedish report can be biased, but she explicitly saying so is a different story JRSP 02:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes but read what I said. Elena seems to only refer to herself as Swedish when she is around Swedish people, or trying to promote an English song in Sweden. I have yet to see one foreign interview that she herself calls herself Swedish.  I am trying to find somewhere to upload this interview from Australia. Greekboy 03:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I see. I thought you were saying SVT was biased. When I said above I had some reservations about Swedish media, I was refering to a reporter saying that she is Swedish, but a reputable Swedish media reporting she said she was Swedish is OK, in my opinion. I understand you mean she is biased when in Sweden JRSP 03:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * See, I dont know if you could consider them a reputable Swedish media. They also broadcasted all over europe the "GRE" next to her name (meaning Greece) during the Athletic Championships.  My suggestion so far is that the article start off as: "Elena Paparizou (Greek: Έλενα Παπαρίζου; born January 31, 1982 in Borås, Sweden) is a Greek singer, best known....." Greekboy 03:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Per WP:RS, how Paparizou refers to herself is not relevant (she's a primary source). --Tkynerd 04:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Im sorry, but I don't get what you are saying. You are saying that what she calls herself is not relevant and dosnt matter?  Then what does matter?  She was born and raised in Sweden by Greek parents and attended Greek School.  She moved to Greece and became a super-star singer and represented Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest 2 times.  She is a citizen of Greece, and even was the official ambassador of tourism.  When she came to fame, it was as a Greek artist rather than a Swedish artist.  Elena has done no work in Sweden, all of it is in Greece as a solo act.  She is just starting to explore Sweden and Europe with some English songs.  Greekboy 05:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, WP:RS says " Wikipedia articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic. Any interpretive claims require secondary sources" JRSP 10:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And as this discussion clearly shows, the correct way to describe her nationality is a matter of interpretation. There is no problem saying, in the article, "Paparizou describes herself in media interviews as Greek," because there's little or no question that she does that. But the idea that, based on this, we should factually describe her as Greek is an interpretive claim. --Tkynerd 12:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact is that if we balance the two sides we'll see that the arguments about her greek side are much more but some people want to present her as a swedish for obvious reasons while whole Europe know her as Greek, and the way that she celebrated after her win with the greek flag on the stage is prominent. She wouldn't do this with the flag of Sweden and as she has said she will never sing for Sweden at Eurovision. Sthenel 13:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * When I, as a native English speaker, see someone described as "Greek," my assumption is that the person was born and raised in Greece. To describe Paparizou only as "Greek" is thus misleading. I don't necessarily think "Greek-Swedish" is the best way to describe her, but I do think her origin -- which, BTW, also means her place of origin, not just her ethnicity as some would have it -- needs to be covered in the initial paragraph. Otherwise the reader will be misled. --Tkynerd 13:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Before you think that we are some people that can't speak English, I'm from the US, so I am a native English speaker. The assumption that she was born and Raised in Greece would not be there if you put that she was born in Sweden, like I wrote it.  Further more, the only time Paparizou refers to herself as Swedish is when around Swedish Media or in Sweden.  Other than that she refers to herself as Greek.  And before you say something about interpretation, International media refer to herself as Greek. Greekboy 17:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The fact that someone was born in a place doesn't necessarily mean she was raised there. I have a friend who was born in Paris, but she certainly was not raised there. I'd say the fact that she does refer to herself as Swedish when speaking with Swedish media, or when she is in Sweden, is the best possible argument for describing her as "Swedish" rather than as just "born in Sweden," or even "born and raised in Sweden." Finally, the international media are simply accepting her description of herself; we are not bound to do the same -- in fact, it's the job of an encyclopedia to work harder and look deeper to get at the whole truth rather than just one side of it. --Tkynerd 17:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * More worthwhile reading: Lead section. Per this guideline, it is my opinion that a lead section that fails to mention Paparizou's Swedish background (raised there, went to school there, etc.) provides misleading context for the rest of the article and fails to include salient information. --Tkynerd 18:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * How about "Elena Paparizou (Greek: Έλενα Παπαρίζου; born January 31, 1982) is a Greek singer born and raised in Sweden, best known....."? The Greek singer is there, because she became most notable as a Greek and while a Greek citizen. Greekboy 18:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That works for me. I think the details of her nationality, ethnicity, etc. can be covered in the body of the article. I think that phrase provides an accurate view of her background and also has the virtue of conciseness. Anyone else? --Tkynerd 18:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll add this, though: I want to see that punctuated a little differently. Here are a couple of examples: "Elena Paparizou [I don't know how to get Greek characters on my keyboard] is a Greek singer, born and raised in Sweden, who is best known..."; "Elena Paparizou is a Greek singer who was born and raised in Sweden. She is best known..." --Tkynerd 18:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Is ok for me. / Fred-Chess 18:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above examples. Btw, Tkynerd, you mentioned what you perceive when you read "Greek".. Paparizou is greek-speaking and she attended a greek school in Sweden. Sthenel 18:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's exactly the kind of information...that belongs in the body of the article, not in the lead section. Additionally, is she Swedish-speaking? Did she grow up with Swedish friends? The whole issue is so much more complex than some of you want to admit. --Tkynerd 19:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The Greek characters are there to spell her name in Greek. Here is an example of a non-greek random singer .  In many of the international article, the forign spelling is put in.  Elena can speak Swedish as she grew up there.  She has said in interviews that most of her friends were fellow Greeks living in Sweden although she did have some all Swedish friends.  But around age 17, Elena started the duo "Antique" with one of her greek friends (living in Sweden) and basically started abandoning all of that.  She finished school out, and then started singing.  (There is actually an interview from Greece where a presenter calls Elena up in Sweden when she was still 17 to tell her she has been nominated for an award and her mom picks up and says that she is still in school).  Her finance is also a Greek that lived in Sweden.  They met at a Greek restaurant there.  Now they both moved to Greece and have a house there.  Anyway, I think we have found a compromise for the lead as "Elena Paparizou (Greek: Έλενα Παπαρίζου; born January 31, 1982) is a Greek singer born and raised in Sweden, best known....." Also about the Greek school thing, there are some interviews were she says some of her first public singing was at her Greek School when they put on shows for Greek independence day and other Greek holidays. Greekboy 19:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Greekboy, I think you misunderstood something about the Greek characters. All I was saying, when I put in my own examples, is that I wasn't going to put the Greek spelling of her name into my examples because I didn't know how! I definitely think the Greek spelling of her name should be included; this is standard Wikipedia practice. I think the fact needs to be accepted that her background is part Greek and part Swedish; this is an inescapable consequence of the fact that she grew up in Sweden. If she started her career while she was still in school in Sweden, then she still started her career in Sweden, no? Also, I do expect a grammatical correction of the text you've just reposted, along the lines I suggested; your text doesn't read quite right. Thanks. --Tkynerd 22:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

"she has said she will never sing for Sweden at Eurovision."

Where has she said that? In the TV-interview linked above, Elena actually says that she would be "very happy" to sometime represent Sweden in the Eurovision.

"When she came to fame, it was as a Greek artist rather than a Swedish artist. Elena has done no work in Sweden, all of it is in Greece as a solo act."

Absolutely not true. Elena started her whole career from Sweden. Antique was a band started in Sweden, where they initially produced most of their music and achieved fame. You don't have to win the Eurovision to become "famous". So to say that she has "done no work" in Sweden is a blatant lie.

As I have pointed out, even the Greek Athens News Agency refers to her as Swedish Greek, she has stated in interview that she has "two homecountries" and she is a citizen of both countries. I don't see why some people are so eager to hide this. /Slarre 21:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. Elena said she would like to do something for Swedish Eurovision, not necessarily represent.  She was interviewed in December (its on youtube)  and she said that she wants to do something like give the Swedish points or be a host in the national selection.  She also said that she was asked to be the Joker this year, but she said she would like to help the Swedish Eurovision in a different way (like the ways I told you).
 * 2. Elena rose to fame as a solo-act. Even as antique the songs may have been released there but in Greek, and then represented Greece in Eurovision.  Of course she started there, since she was still going to school. Elena rose to super-stardom as a solo act.  And your so called Athens News Agency article isnt even from there site, and does not provide any link or source of it other than adding a name.  Everyone so far has agreed to the compromise stated about except you. 21:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Her career as "Antique" was started in Sweden, but her solo-caeer was started in Greece. Elena became famous with her solo-career.  Anyway, what else should be added to the lead? To me it sounds right. "Elena Paparizou (Greek: Έλενα Παπαρίζου; born January 31, 1982) is a Greek singer born and raised in Sweden, best known....." Greekboy 23:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, she said that she would like to do something for Sweden in Eurovision but not represent it. She didn't definetely deny it but she doesn't have it in mind. We don't try to hide anything but make the whole thing coincide with reality. For example the kids of an Albanian in Greece, who will go back to live in their country will not be considered Greeks in Albania. They will be Albanians. It would be a different thing if Paparizou had no connection to Greece like Jennifer Aniston for example who was born in America, lived for few years in Greece and went back to USA. She is Greek-American. Paparizou is not Greek-Swedish anymore. Sthenel 23:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You still don't get it: Paparizou still holds Swedish  citizenship , apart from her very strong personal relations to Sweden. The introduction should state this or else it will be a violation of wp guidelines. It's not more difficult than that.


 * And besides, if that wasn't clear, the interview which I linked to was this (in Swedish), where she clearly states that she would "be very happy to compete for Sweden" ("jag skulle jättegärna tävla för Sverige") in the Eurovision. /Slarre 00:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Can I ask you a question Slarre? Have you been reading ANYTHING we have wrote so far?  Paparizou is biased when with Swedish media.  Anyway Eurovision isnt even the issue right now.  Second you have still to give a secure source saying she holds a Swedish citizenship.  According to Swedish nationality law just because you are born in Sweden does not mean you hold Swedish citizenship.  We do not know if the father or mother had Swedish citizenship at the time as they were both immigrants from Greece. The only "proof" you have shown is a Swedish site that shows where she had an apartment in Sweden. Doing a simple search on Google, you find that you actually do not have to be a citizen to have a Swedish Social Security number as the one provided there. The proof that Elena is a Greek citizen is that she held a government job being the Official Ambassador of Greek tourism.  In order to hold a Greek governemnt job you must be a Greek citezen (as in the case of mostly all other governemtns) Greekboy 01:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What is wrong with the line ''"Elena Paparizou (Greek: Έλενα Παπαρίζου; born January 31, 1982) is a Greek singer born and raised in Sweden, best known....."'? Greekboy 05:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

RfC Greek, Swedish, Swedish-Greek or Greek-Swedish
I suggest asking her, on her website, which citizenship/s she holds. And then in lead paragraph state "Paparizou holds XXXXX nationalit/ies/y." SmithBlue 05:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It dosnt work like that. There is no contact info on her website, and her record company and people running the official site are notorious in Greece for never answering you back.  Even if you call them. Note that the "Mailing" section on the site actually gets sent to Sony BMG. Greekboy 05:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Plus that would constitute original research. Big huge no-no. --Tkynerd 14:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So ask her to publish it. SmithBlue 01:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As I previously made clear, she is a primary source and so cannot be used. --Tkynerd 01:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect - section "Self-published sources in articles about themselves" says conditionally OK. SmithBlue 05:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, and one of the conditions is "not contentious," which obviously does not apply here. --Tkynerd 14:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Elena Paparizou and Sony BMG are busy people. They are not going to go and publish it on the web just because a couple of people on here have a problem.  Like I said before, Sony BMG Greece is very notorious in Greece for never answering emails or phone calls.  Elena's site is run by Sony BMG. Greekboy 07:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

What about electoral rolls? Are they published? SmithBlue 07:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC) First side to find her name on a published citizens electoral roll wins. (At least fo a while.)SmithBlue 01:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That of course is bull, because the fact that she exists on one doesn't mean she's not on the other. This isn't a contest; this is a project to write an encyclopedia, and that's not how encyclopedias are written. --Tkynerd 01:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What she is and what she considers herself is obvious. Indeed, she was the official Ambassador of Greek tourism. Saying that she was born and raised in Sweden in the opening paragraph, implies that she has a connection to the swedish culture. But the puspose of people who don't agree with us is to present her as a swedish and not a person who has a swedish education or something. We have talked so much about this and we're saying all the same again and again, same arguments, same examples etc It should stop. Everyone can read the discussion above, we don't have anything else to write so let's stop it. She has done so much for Greece, Eurovision for Greece (2 times), Ambassador of Greece, she became famous working in Greece, she is of greek origin, she speaks greek, she lives in Greece and she has the greek citizenship. If all these can be considered as equal to a supposed "swedish citizenship" then ok, Greek-Swedish or even Swedish if you want, is all right. Sthenel 14:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That really is some of the most flagrant POV pushing I have ever seen on Wikipedia, which takes in some territory. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to present the facts, not to present someone's views -- not even the views of the subject of an article. --Tkynerd 14:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Pushing? It's only an opinion and if you look at what I wrote at the end, it has nothing to do with pushing. Sthenel 16:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The part at the end is the pushing! --Tkynerd 20:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding electoral rolls: You can go to the "Μάθε που ψηφίζεις" (find out where you vote) webpage of the Greek ministry of the interior, public administration and decentralisation (Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης), and in the form enter Elena's personal details (Επώνυμο: ΠΑΠΑΡΙΖΟΥ, Όνομα: ΕΛΕΝΗ, Όνομα Πατέρα: ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ, Όνομα Μητέρας: ΕΥΦΡΟΣΥΝΗ, Έτος Γέννησης: 1982). Then press "Αναζήτηση". You will find that a person with these details is registered and votes somewhere in Karditsa. 147.102.1.1 19:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've hit a wall here. I really don't know what suggestion to give now. I came up with a compromise that everyone seemed to agree with, and then 1 user shoots it down and it's the same arguments again. Greekboy 18:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I know. :-( It's not just one user that shot it down, though. There are users on both sides who will not accept anything short of total victory. Personally, I think those users should be ignored and the compromise should go forward. I don't think true consensus is possible with those users. --Tkynerd 20:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I could see this coming, which is why I suggested a poll in the first place. The issue has not and cannot be resolved through discussion, for which I made a poll. It was not supposed to be a place to discuss the problem since it had already been done on a previous thread, nonetheless it turned into one. I still strongly stand firm that just 'Greek' be used as Elena Paparizou's nationality tag (her connection to Sweden is visibly noticeable in the opening paragraph ["born... in Borås, Sweden"]). I will we re-do another poll now, where we can all vote for the nationality tag we would like to see on this article.

Cypriot stud 15:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Poll: Nationality Tag
After much discussion and debating, I call it upon myself to re-create a poll whose outcome will decide what nationality tag will be used for Elena Paparizou in her Wikipedia article. The discussions we have had have resulted in no consensus and does not appear to be making any progression into the debate, thus I believe that voting in a poll is the last resort to solving the problem.

The four suggested tags are: 'Greek', 'Swedish', 'Greek-Swedish', and 'Swedish-Greek'. To vote, just put the nationality tag you believe should be used for this article and make it bold, for easy visibility, and state the reason why you think it should be used. Note: this is not another discussion thread, and I would kindly like to ask that you not debate the issue here. This thread is for voting only.

Cypriot stud 16:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think we can decide this issue "by the numbers." If we can't reach consensus through discussion, we should ask for outside help first. --Tkynerd 16:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Greek. The singer's fame and notability came to light in Greece, her ethnicity is Greek, her nationality is Greek, her citizenship is Greek, she considers herself Greek, she is considered Greek, and she lives in Greece. Her connection to Sweden is totally understood with my proposal (and explained in further detail in paragraphs below the introductory biographical note): "Elena Paparizou (born ..., in Borås, Sweden) is a Greek singer, best known..." and in her information box her birthplace will be (as it currently is) stated as Borås, Sweden. 'Swedish' has no place nor relevance to her nationality in the opening paragraph. 'Greek' is more important and relevant to her career and personality. 'Swedish-Greek' (or 'Greek-Swedish') is a bit awkward and unorthodox when it comes to Wikipedia's law on nationality. Not only that, it is not needed or desired when something more appropriate ('Greek') can be placed. Cypriot stud


 * This stupid poll has no validity whatsoever. / Fred-Chess 16:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If you don't think it has any validity, you need to explain why. Bare assertions don't carry any weight. --Tkynerd 16:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Tkynerd: Polling is evil ; also see Wikipedia works by building consensus. Consensus is an inherent part of a wiki process (Consensus). / Fred-Chess 20:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not that I disagree with that (see my comment above to CypriotStud); I'm just pointing out that particularly in a discussion this infected, simple assertions aren't productive. Also, while I agree with the reasoning at the "Polling is evil" page, I see that the page also notes exceptions. (I hope you don't mind that I moved your comment to maintain the integrity of this thread of discussion.) --Tkynerd 20:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Greek singer born and raised in Borås, Sweden. I think this gives the reader an accurate quick picture of her background. --Tkynerd 16:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But Paparizou was not raised in Borås. She was born there, and raised in Gothenburg, which is why I think "born ... in Borås, Sweden" is better. Cypriot stud 19:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that she was raised in Sweden, and not just born there, must be included one way or another. How about Greek singer born and raised in Sweden? --Tkynerd 19:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it should not be included in the introductory paragraph, which specifically exists so as nto to divulge too much information or go into a lot of depth, so this can be (and is currently) explained below the opening paragraph. Call me a pedantic, but '...born and raised in Sweden' is not a nationality, nor particularly suitable for a nationality tag on Wikipedia. Her birth place and nationality is all that is relevant for her opening paragraph (which is basically a very short, quick biography with the msot important details); where she was raised is preferable and much more suitable in the paragraph below. Cypriot stud 21:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the information "born and raised in Sweden" is important enough to be included in the lead. As it stands now, the lead contains very little information for a casual reader. JRSP 23:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's my feeling exactly. CypriotStud, you're wrong if you think the lead section should value brevity over providing an accurate picture of the subject. If I see "Greek singer born in Sweden," I think I'm reading about somebody who just happened to be born in Sweden, but who was raised in Greece. That's not the case here. The lead section does need to be reasonably brief (although Guide to layout says it should not be longer than four paragraphs; we've plenty of room), but it should not mislead the reader. --Tkynerd 00:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I am still voting for "Greek singer born and raised in Sweden". But interestingly enough, this weekend Elena was in Cannes, France for an award show for European Border Breaker Award.  She won the award as a Greek singer for her CD "Proteriotita:Euro Edition". She is the only Greek artist to receive this award they said.  The presenters called her Greek too. Also she said she dedicated the award to Greece.  Further more reporters asked her why she didn't accept to go to Eurovision for Sweden, and she said that she believes she can do something else for the Swedish Eurovision rather than sing. Greekboy 21:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Funny that some of us are trying so hard to box this woman in as strictly a Greek singer when she's just won the Border Breaker Award, innit? --Tkynerd 12:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * She won the award for selling copies of her Greek CD "Proteriotita:Euro Edition" as an export outside of Greece after eurovision (My Number One was a VERY BIG song after she won). Greekboy 18:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OK. What is going on now?  Are we still voting are what?  I say we unlock the article and change the intro to Greek singer born and raised in Sweden.Greekboy 01:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What do we need to do to get this unlocked? I would like to add some new things to it. Greekboy 01:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank God. Finally this mess has been sorted =]. Cypriot stud 16:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

"Forced to spell her name with an H"?
That assertion is not, at least, supported by the Aftonbladet article used as a reference. Here is a translation of that article into English:


 * ''Greece's entry in the Eurovision Song Contest this year is performed by a Swedish-Greek woman. But what is her name, really? Elena or Helena?
 * ''Her birth name is Elena Paparizou, and she used that name when she was a singer with the pop group Antique. But on her new album, and in connection with Eurovision, she has chosen to call herself Helena. However, the "H" is not pronounced, so regardless of what you write, it's "Elena" you should be yelling in front of your TV.
 * Emelie Rosenblad at her record company, Bonnier Amigo, says the name change came about because in some European countries, the name "Elena" is difficult to pronounce. "She's been called 'Chelena,' 'Jelena' and any number of variations on that."

The emphasis above is mine. --Tkynerd 00:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * She chose to be called Helena by her record company. She has made that clear in many many interviews, and that her name is still "Elena" and not "Helena". Also take a look at this article .  It says its Elena as she is called in Greece.  As it has been stated in the talk about the nationality, Elena's career is mostly in Greece, where she is called Elena, and that is written on her CDs. Greekboy 01:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing that she should be called Helena in the article; I am arguing that we have no basis for asserting that her record company forced her to use the spelling Helena. If there is such a source, we should use it instead; otherwise we should delete this statement from the article. The Aftonbladet article you linked to above says exactly the opposite of what you assert: Elena Paparizou, or Helena as she is now called in Greece, is everyone's favorite. --Tkynerd 01:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Are youtube links good for sources? Greekboy 15:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the only issue with YouTube links is that there may be copyright issues. It's my understanding that we're not supposed to even link to YouTube videos on Wikipedia (much less use them as sources) unless it is completely clear that their presence on YouTube doesn't violate anyone's copyright. Other than that, there's nothing wrong with using a video as a source. --Tkynerd 18:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * In connection with another edit, I noticed that this unsubstantiated statement about Paparizou being "forced to spell her name with an 'h'" was still in the article. I have edited it to reflect what the reference actually says (see my translation of the Swedish article above). --Tkynerd 18:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

CHARTS
Charts peaks change every week or they are permanent from the first week of the release???

Elena's Personal Life
"Tony and Elena have bought a house together in the Athens suburb of Glyfada." Tony who? Tony Blair? Tony Randall? Or perhaps the Tony-award? Could someone please illuminate who this Tony exactly is? --Robster1983 22:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added in his last name and more information about them. It was in there before, but someone took it out. Greekboy 12:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thnx for improving it, it makes a lot more sence now :-) Pity that someone took that information out, I can't see why anyone would do that (for it is not improving the article, in fact; au contraire). --Robster1983 17:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
What happened to the page?? Why is everything removed????--Chronisgr 12:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Origin
Her origin is Greek (In fact she is Pontic-Greek) as both her parents are Greeks.She is Greek/Swedish though by being born in Sweden but you guys wrote it completely the opposite. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 18:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? The opening says that basically: Elena Paparizou (Greek: Έλενα Παπαρίζου; born January 31, 1982) is a Greek singer, born and raised in Sweden.  Anyway, this specific subject has been discussed to death. See above talk. Greekboy (talk) 06:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)