Talk:Helena Paparizou/Archive 2

παοκ
Η αγαπημένη της ομάδα είναι η παοκάρα —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.254.7.217 (talk) 21:04, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but her favorite soccer team is not very encyclopedic and you did not provide a source. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 21:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Images
Methinks you are running out of policy in english wiki--Kalogeropoulos (talk) 14:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What is that supposed to mean? Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It means you are using too much copyrighted material against policy you are creating. That means you are committing suicide. Understood? And ofcourse I 've to warn you about violations on Commons, Understood?--Kalogeropoulos (talk) 20:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is the picture of Paparizou in Kiev taken out? It was determined a long time ago that there is no fair use image available at the time as it was a once in a lifetime event.  A mod even cleared that I believe back then.  I am putting it back in. Greekboy (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Issues
Firstly, Opa Opa went to number 5 on the Swedish charts, not 1, and it was only big success amongst the Greek immigrants in Sweden. Also, Antique never sold any multi-platinum albums and their sales were generally very low, thus their break-up. I'm taking that information out and revising it. Finally, Paparizou was not chosen to represent Greece in ESC 2005 because of her popularity, that's matter of opinion. The truth is that the 1st choice for that year was Sakis Rouvas (2004 representative), followed by Anna Vissi and Despina Vandi. All of these singers were ruled out because they were considered too high budget for ERT at the time, thus they came down to 2 lesser-known acts: Annette Artani and Elena Paparizou. Her popularity rose after the ESC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRstar2008 (talk • contribs) 07:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know about that, maybe you should check out Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest 2005 because the information there is all sourced. Also, Opa Opa single went plat in greece, gold in Sweden, and Alli Mia Fora went gold. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 12:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of information from the sections Antique & Eurovision that are unsourced. Also, a lot of past commentary that described future projects were never updated and the writing sounds sloppy (saying "she will" "is going to be" when the event date has already occured. Also, "Paparizou's artistic talents and eagerness to excel" sounds more like opinion, and probably advertising. The phrase has never been verified, unless you say something like according to her parents...Paparizou has not been critically acclaimed specifically for her vocal or dance abilities and talking about her talent level is a matter of opinion. Please do not advertise your own opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRstar2008 (talk • contribs) 07:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If you read Greece in the ESC 2005 it says mostly the same things I was saying about her not being their first choice and that the other acts were too expensive or had otherwise other commitments. Therefore she was not chosen because of her popularity, she was barely even known. The ESC escalated her career to an extent. By the way if you read sources on Paparizou's site bio and MAD TV, Alli Mia Fora was their first album to go gold in Greece, Die For You (song) their only platinum. They all state that Opa Opa was gold in Sweden and Dinata Dinata was uncertified. Where are you getting this information from, these articles don't even have sources.! GRstar2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.137.234.249 (talk) 09:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was talking about your Rouvas and Artani references for Greece ESC 05, that is not sourced. And please keep convos together. Here is not the place to talk about Antique's certifications. I'm not getting these sources from anywhere, other people edit you know. Random ip addresses comes on and change so much stuff that you can't keep up with them, but need to try because they don't know the guidelines and such, so every edit needs to be reviewed. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Vocal abilities
Shouldn't there be some information about her vocal range and abilities in the first introduction paragraph? I see it very often in other singers and I think Paparizou has a great voice. If someone knows about that stuff, it would be great I think to be added.Jimmakos (talk) 00:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

greek?
how is she greek if she is born in sweden? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.128.252 (talk) 21:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Because her family is from Greece. Where your born has nothing to do with your ethnicity unless that is where your family can be traced back to. Passports and all that stuff are only nationality, you do not magically have "Swedish" blood and heritage just because you are born there. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ofc she's Swedish, if you're born and raised, as specified in the article you're Swedish, not a ethnic Swede but still Swedish, at the least she is Greek-Swedish/Swedish-Greek chandler • 15:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, nationality wise she is both Greek and Swedish, but not ethnically. Please refer to the archive where it was discussed and agreed upon how we would refer to her. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ethnicity has NOTHING to do with it, read MOS:BIO Opening paragraph, number 3. "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.", which it isnt, it is instead the nationality which should be shown. chandler • 17:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You need to establish consensus to make the change. As of now, you are just saying here is a source, consensus from before can change, but fail to show any consensus for your change to write that she is Greek-Swede in the opening. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The MOS:BIO clearly state that it isnt ethnicity but nationality that should be shown. It is clear that she's Swedish (and Greek) by the fact that she's born in Sweden, this has also been backed up by sources. "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national" as I understand it she hold dual nationality, therefore both should be listed. chandler • 17:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * She would for example without Swedish be the only one in Category:Greek-Swedes not showing both nationalities (excluding sporting people who only can have one), in that category she seems to be the only one (except footballer players) who were born in Sweden. And looking around on various articles about people with dual nationality I've only found [born nationality]-[other nationality], as seems to be the way she's be the majority of sources use it as well. chandler • 17:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

So as explained already, she is Swedish, this is clear from that fact that she's born in Sweden, and raised there. MOS:BIO cleary states as cited above that it is nationality not ethnicity that should be listed. If she a person holds dual nationality, include both (this has been a long standing precedent all over wikipedia). She would be the only person in Category:Greek-Swedes not to include both nationalities (except sports people, as explained), so stop the POV-pushing that she's not Swedish there are plenty of references backing up that she's Swedish (most sources state Swedish-Greek or Greek-Swedish etc). chandler • 20:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * MOS:BIO also states In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. That would be Greece. She is also a Greek citizen. Just because she would be the only person in a category not to include both nationalities means nothing. Remember Other stuff exists. Just because it exists that way, doesn't mean it is right in this case. The only one POV-pushing is you. You are changing a consensus on your own. Yes, it can be changed, but you are doing so on your own, with out any new consensus. There is a long archive on this issue, and I suggest reading it all the way through. The way the current intro is worded, it is obvious that she is also a Swedish national. And one can confirm that by reading the next couple of sentences in her bio. Besides, even if ethnicity is the issue here like you say, MOS:BIO also states Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Paparizou's Greek ethnicity IS relevant to her notability. So that argument really doesn't work. Greekboy (talk) 21:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You really misunderstand MOS:BIO there, she was and IS a Swedish national, that includes "when she became notable", a person does not have to have one nationality only. And her ethnicity has NOTHING to do with her notability, she's a singer, since when has that anything to do with ethnicity?... And if "it's obvious that she's a Swedish national" why won't you accept its inclusion (there are multiple sources), so that would be you pushing the POV that she's only Greek. While other things may exist, there is also a wikiwide consensus and precedent that people of dual nationality usually make it clear that they hold both nationalities. chandler • 21:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Greek ethnicity has ALOT to do with her notability. From the moment that international media (even Swedish) refer to her as "Greek Singer.....", it does. She is most notable for winning ESC for Greece as a Greek singer. Besides, its not like Greek is linked to Greek Citizenship. It is rather linked to Greeks which implies ethnicity, which as pointed out, is relevant. So the current wording works out. Greekboy (talk) 21:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, the lead is about nationality, not ethnicity, so it should perhaps link Greek–Swede, and no, Swedish media doesn't refer to her as a Greek singer, "Swede Elena Paparizou" and "Greek Swede Paparizou.", "Swedish-Greek singer Helena Paparizou", "svenskgrekiska sångerskan Elena Paparizou" (Swedish-Greek singer...), "Den svensk-grekiska sångerskan" (The Swedish-Greek singer). That she competed for Greece does not make her ethnicity something to do with her notability (see for example Arash who competed for Azerbaijan this year), there have been numerous people competing for other countries in the ESC, its not a competition locked by ethnicity or even nationality. chandler • 21:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As stated in MOS:BIO, the lead CAN also be about ethnicity if it is relevant to the persons notability. So its not clear-cut that it is ONLY about nationality. I have also seen other Swedish articles refer to her as Greek only. So finding a handful calling her Greek-Swedish doesn't change the fact that she is notable for her Greek ethnicity. Unfortunately after a reformat of my PC, I do not have my translator to translate Swedish articles anymore. It should also be noted that during the 2006 European Championships in Athletics held in Gothenburg, Sweden, she was also referred to as "Greek singer", while the caption on the bottom of the Screen read "Greece" during her performance. (By SVT too.) The Arash comparison does nothing for the argument by the way. He does not have his whole career in Azerbaijan. Greekboy (talk) 21:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You've not shown anything on why her ethnicity has anything to do with her notability. And by referring to people as "Greek" it does not automatically mean "ethnic Greek" but it can mean that a Greek as in a Greek national. The Arash comparison shows that because he competed for Azerbaijan doesn't make him "notable Azerbaijani". And yes references that show that she IS Swedish (does not really need anything other than birth city for that one) gives a reason to include both nationalities. chandler • 21:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Arash comparison doesn't work because although he participated for Azerbaijan and has some ties there, his career is not in Azerbaijan. He just participated for them. By comparison, almost all of Paparizou's career is in Greece. Where she also lives and works. Winning the Eurovision song contest as a Greek singer, while also being the official ambassador of tourism for Greece makes her Greek ethnicity notable. Not to mention the fact that the majority of her career is in Greece as a Greek singer. Just as you can find articles stating Greek-swede, I can find articles stating Greek singer: "Eurovision win for Greek singer " as just one example.... Greekboy (talk) 22:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, her almost all her career has not been in Greece, she even started in Sweden (and from the looks of it she's lived much longer in Sweden than in Greece), but that doesn't even have an impact... Again being a ambassador for Greece does not make her ethnicity notable somehow, it certainly doesn't make her ethnicity more notable than her nationalities... I'm gonna req a third opinion. chandler • 22:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Being the ambassador does. She had to promote herself as a Greek (Ethnically) promoting Greece. And YES, the majority of her solo-career (and most notable time period) is based in Greece. (Where she has lived permanently since 2001. Her solo-career, which she is most notable for, started in 2003. But thats besides the point) Greekboy (talk) 22:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * She was part of Antique which was formed in Sweden, so its not like her entire career is in Greece, even if Antique was aimed mostly at a Greek audience. I don't generally consider people who are nationals as being part of the same group as ethnics. It's in your blood, you can't just move there and assume an ancestry in the culture. I'm torn and a little too involved, so I'll leave the third opinion to someone outside of the topic. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is why I said "Solo-career", which is what she is most notable for anyway.Greekboy (talk) 09:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * To say that Elena is a "greek singer" is probably not a true claim. a Greek-Swedish or Swedish-Greek singer would be mutch more appropriate. And, yes where you are born has everything to do with your nationality. If it should be truly accurate it should state "Is a Swedish singer of greek descent". To say that she is not swedish in any case is wrong.--Judo112 (talk) 16:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also to state that most of her career has been in greece is also wrong, considering that even Antique did their first album in Sweden. And that the two band members met in Sweden... etc etc etc... I think we have a stron nationalistic view here from the greek side unfortunatly.--Judo112 (talk) 17:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it should say she is actually Greek. So she was born and raised in Sweden, but ethnically she never was nor will she ever be a Swede. Plus the fact she never hanged out with Swedish kids and she represented Greece, not Sweden, at the Eurovision. Sorry, but she will never be Swedish. For this matter, Johny Oduya has more right to be called a Swede, despite the fact that he is not white. Unlike in Paparizou's case, Oduya's mother happen to be Swedish (who unfortunatelly slept with a Kenyan man). to Judo112: I am definitely not Greek, but I dont want her to be classified a sa Swede, because she is not. Norum (talk) 14:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, this conversation again. By the way, Greek-Swede sounds ridiculous. She's a Swedish-Greek singer. Not important enough for me to bother changing it... but come on. And the Arash comparison IS relevant. Arash has ROOTS in Azerbaijan (3rd generation) and his fanbase in Azerbaijan and neighbouring countries is bigger than his fanbase in Sweden!!! Many people have tried to change his wikipedia page to "Azeri singer" but the Iranians and occasionally Swedes put a stop to that. And Norum... of course Johnny Oduya is Swedish. Your comments expose your racism though. So according to you a black person adopted by Greek parents is not Greek? That just says it all... And welcome to wikipedia where we go by nationality and not ethnicity. Elena remains a Swedish-Greek singer. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Lilyserbia, Oduya has more right than Paprizou to be classified as a Swede, just for the fact that he is actually a half Swede. On the other hand, Paparizou was born here, but she is not a Swede because her parents are Greeks. I would not say my remarks were racist at all. The fact is that Sweden is a historically white country, as are all the european countries. Norum (talk) 11:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Get off wikipedia and go back to Stormfront. I know your type. Here we categorise by nationality and not ethnicity and if you seriously can't tell the difference I cannot help you. White is relative. It's a label. What do you consider the sami to be? Or other tribes with mongoloid features who migrated to Europe thousands of years ago? If we only count thousands of years back romani and jews are also native to Europe. How far back do we go? Back to when everyone was in Africa? Like I said. Do you consider someone raised in Greece by Greek parents to be Greek, even though they're black? If your answer to that is no then you are a racist (or at least a racialist). Ethnicity is a cultural definition and this person would be Greek. --Lilyserbia (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, we go by nationality, so she is a Swedish-Greek singer. I don't believe however that a black baby adopted by Greek parents would be Greek in terms of ethnicity. Ethnicity cultural make-up, so a black baby's ethnicity would be where it came from in most cases. It would however, be Greek nationality wise. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 04:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ... What would they be then?

Ethnic group: "Those human groups that entertain a subjective belief in their common descent because of similarities of physical type or of customs or both, or because of memories of colonization and migration; this belief must be important for group formation; furthermore it does not matter whether an objective blood relationship exists." Read that last line very carefully. Older black Americans are not Igbo, Yuroba, Bambara or Efik. Because of slavery they've created their own ethnicity - "African-Americans" - which has nothing to do with recent West African immigrants and their offspring. African-Americans vary greatly in appearance (so don't be ignorant). Plenty even look white, but African-American is an ethnic group and therefore not dependent on looks. The important thing is that they all identify with each other.

Adoption has been referred to by sceptics as the "stealing of an ethnicity." Because someone born and raised abroad with no contact with Western Africa or its culture, is NOT one of the West African ethnicities. They can't communicate and have nothing in common (except looks) so they don't identify with each other. If someone adopted from Mali is raised in Greek to Greek parents how exactly is this person not ethnically (aka culturally) Greek? This is subtle racism and you don't seem to realise it. Mario Balotelli is Italian to most sensible people and he gets extremely pissed off when people call him Ghanian (which isn't actually an ethnicity to begin with). --Lilyserbia (talk) 16:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion
A WP:Third opinion was requested at the project page and I am here to provide it. I have had no previous contact with the authors and have not previously edited this article, so am sufficiently neutral to comment.

I had a good look at MOS:BIO and at the previous talk page archives where this issue is discussed. I've had a look at a number of the sources listed in the article and on the talk archives. I think this is made tricky because the editors involved seem to be aligned along nationalist lines, arguing in favour of their country instead of considering the policies and guidelines from a neutral point of view, which is the whole point of collaborating together on wikipedia.

It would normally be easy for me to direct parties in the direction of WP:Reliable sources that could allow us to settle the dispute, but they seem to be split on this issue. Two useful sources to note are All Music and her homepage biography. All Music is a great source for musician pages, and describes her (to paraphrase) as a Greek singer born in Sweden to Greek parents. Her homepage itself doesn't mention her nationality, just stating "Paparizou was born and raised in Gutenberg, Sweden by Greek parents". I think this is important to register - her own biography does not make a claim to any nationality. It is clear that in the various interviews and on the biography there are marketing considerations that decide what nationality she "is" at any moment, so relying on one specific set is not going to allow progress.

Given this ambiguous nature, I think the two viable options that can allow the editors here to reach consensus is to maintain the current lead, which was the previous consensus solution and makes clear she has Greek origins but was born in Sweden, as per the All Music source, or we follow the biography and state the facts, that she was born to Greek parents in Sweden. MOS:BIO doesn't say we must give the nationality of an article subject, just should. In a case such as this it could well be better to show the reader the facts and allow them to make their own decision. That's in keeping with the usual "show, don't tell" ethos of articles. I'm not quite sure which I favour, but would be interested in your opinions. Bigger digger (talk) 16:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

No nationality mentioned,suggestion
Hi, seriously now, wouldnt it be best if we just didnt have the "Is a Greek singer born and raised in sweden" part and just let everyone reading the article decide for themselves. The nationality doesnt necessarily need to be stated in the start of the article, and especially as the question seem to be a hot topic which seem to be anywhere near a concensus.--Judo112 (talk) 17:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Have now changed it to a neutral version. Which i hope everyone can respect until a concensus has been reached, if even then.--Judo112 (talk) 17:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nationality is always mentioned and it seemed a little lacking without it. I put back "Greek-Swede"; the reader will get all the description he needs by reading the early life section. I have also talked it over with Greekboy, and he should be ok with this. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is important to mention it. Just because it's causing a bit of a dispute amongst editors doesn't mean it should be removed entirely. However, I thank Grk1011/Stephen for changing his stance, but I worry that other editors will come along and be moved to edit Greek/Swedish when there is nothing to support it in the sources. I think just mentioning her family origins and place of birth might be a suitable solution that also doesn't stir the nationalist blood in any editors who come along and might otherwise be tempted to edit it. I'm therefore suggesting the lead reads:
 * What do you both think? Bigger digger (talk) 21:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Changes
I cleaned up this article a lot and tried to add some verifiable info and refs, some for the Antique section which were desperately needed and a few in the 2005 section I got from the GR in ESC 05 article. I corrected some of the spelling and the links and I tried to fix this article's biggest problem = the 06 section. There was a lot of stuff there that was in future tense even though the stuff had already happened or was not materialized. The mambo! stuff needs to be cleaned up. Most of the stuff about the release didn't even happen. I also tried taking out a lot of the redundant stuff as well as the repetitive statements. This article's issue is that it talks about something and moves on to something else and then talks about the first thing again, usually making the same statement. Things need to be kept together and not always necessarily just in chronological order. Most of the article before the 2007 section is quite poorly written.

I also merged the 2006 and 2007 sections because both Iparhi Logos and The Game extend into this year. I also got rid of the Greek/English studio albums section and put them together because that is not a common format on wiki and she is not that notable as an english singer nor does she have so many albums that they need to be split. I also put in the free image of her in 2005 because there's no point of keeping the old one if a free one is available.

The personal life section is a little bit redundant and needs sourcing (languages and fashion sense) and mentioning where it was heard from will not do. I also think that this article is a little bit too long considering its topic... considering the girl has four albums and not much else to talk about. The page is about 50kb; The MJ article (FA class) is like 125; That's for a person who has released a significant amount of albums/films/projects/tours over 40 years and been critically acclaimed. Her article doesn't even have a section for artistry, image, or critical reception and its still so long just because of the repetitive mambo! / the game of love section as well as "Elena vs Helena" is so redundant; 4 paragraphs just to say that her real name is Elena. GreekStar12 (talk) 03:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of the changes seem fine with me and were def needed. It seems odd to me though that Bonnier was searching for a group to sing Greek folk songs thought. The Greek diaspora is not that big in Sweden so its odd that they would not only be looking for Greek singers, but something so particular as described. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, i'm not really a fan and i do not know for sure, but I'll tell you that the article doesn't say that Bonnier was looking for Greek singers. I would assume it were some Greek local "producers" who eventually got them formed and signed to Bonnier. And actually the Greek diaspora is pretty big in Sweden, relatively speaking, 20,000 Greeks out of 8 mil. people. Especially since most of these Greeks are located in the same area in Sweden, I would think that they were trying to get them to perform locally for Greeks and maybe get some radio airplay around Stockholm. They probably wanted both sexes so that they would be able to sing more repetoire, as zeimbekiko is often perceived as "too masculin" for female voices and a lot of the Greek folk songs by women contain lyrics that aren't suitable for a man. antique wasn't formed to sell any platinum albums but rather to cater to the Greek diaspora there as a small project that would make some people some money because nothing else like that was really available to the Greeks there. ie if there's only one grocery store in 100 miles and you don't like the service, you're gonna shop there. That's why going gold was a huge and unexpected success for them. GreekStar12 (talk) 21:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well this seems to be your point of view on the matter. Does the source say that exactly? We don't need to mention why they were signed, only that they were. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not really my point of view, I'm just trying to give you an idea of why they would want a Greek duo. It makes more sense than a random label wanting to promote Greek music to Swedes. Anyway, I'm not sure of how much Greek you can read, but the source basically says what's in the article. "A few producers looking for a boy and a girl to sing covers of Greek hits found themselves meeting with Elena" and it goes on to say that she recommended Panagiotidis to form the group with her and the rest is history. The statement is not about why they were signed but why they formed, right?GreekStar12 (talk) 02:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC) 02:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Singles
I was hoping to sort out some issues with Greek singles lately and I was wondering about her amount of number-one singles. From what I understand However, I think we need to sort out which chart we call the Greek Airplay Chart, since there are two. There is the GAC for Greek and international hits, and there is the Greek chart for Greek-language-only songs (top 40 i think), so when we credit a song as going #1, it is important to distinguish. The latter is the one used as a primary reference in Greece, just like the Greek albums chart is more important for a Greek album than the Greek and Internation albums chart. Also, in the case of CD singles, going #1 on the singles chart does not necessarily constitute a hit, since there are not very many single releases in Greece. Oh and btw, Panagiotidis released a CD single sometime between 2003-04 called "Dyo Vrohes" which peaked at #1 on the singles chart. So, with that being said, I don't think that I recall either "Anapandites Kliseis" or "Gigolo" or "Porta Gia Ton Ourano" hitting #1 (perhaps I m wrong about Gigolo), although I think that they made the top 5.
 * "I Kardia Sou Petra", "To Fili tis Zois", "Mazi Sou", and "Teardrops" are sourced as number-one hits; "Porta Gia Ton Ourano" claims but is not sourced, same with "Gigolo".
 * I'm pretty sure "My Number One" and "Mambo!" would have gone #1 on airplay too, as they remain her biggest hits.

So as it stands, it seems that "Anapandites Kliseis" (doubtedly), "My Number One", "Mambo!", "Gigolo" (maybe), "Teardrops", "Mazi Sou", "To Fili Tis Zois", "Porta Gia Ton Ourano" (maybe), and "I Kardia Sou Petra" reached number 1 on either the Greek/Greek International charts. BTW, we should start referencing them as that not to create confusion. If we go by album, hits (radio impact, but not nec. #1) from
 * Protereotita: "Anapandites Kliseis", "Katse Kala", later "My Number One", "To Fos Sti Psyhi", and "Mambo!"
 * Iparhi Logos: "Iparhi Logos", "Gigolo", and "An Ihes Erthi Pio Noris", later "Mazi Sou", "Min Fevgeis"
 * The Game of Love: "Teardrops"
 * Vrisko To Logo Na Zo: "To Fili Tis Zois", "Porta Gia Ton Ourano", "I Kardia Sou Petra", "Pirotehnimata", and now "Tha Mai Allios" right? In some of the Greek album/single pages i see very specific numbers and i m not sure where they r coming from, esp. for recent releases, lol.GreekStar12 (talk) 12:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, although this is unrelated, is her 2nd english studio album now cancelled or delayed due to the new Greek album? GreekStar12 (talk) 12:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, I hate that there aren't many sources for the placings and I object to using the term "hit" because it is pov, what makes a song a "hit"? Is the Billboard Greek chart still not accessible? And Elena's English album is pushed back it seems from what I'm hearing from Paparizou Forum, probably late 2010? There is also some discussion today about a possible OST. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

semi-protection
I put a semi-protection tag on this article so that IP users cannot edit it because IP user 79 is getting on my nerves and we have to revert his edits at least five times a day recently. I tried talking nicely to them but they just won't listen and are editing the Vissi article too. I hope I put the right tag on, though. All of these random editors have been making stupid changes recently as well as adding non-free images to the article. Two of them were deleted today but I think a tag should be placed on the platinum pic b/c there is no date/source info. This article really does not need to deal with this right now. GreekStar12 (talk) 16:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * An administrator has to grant a request for protection after you propose it here, so the page isn't protected as of yet. You might as well get every Elena and Anna Vissi page protected while you are at it lol. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Length
OK so this article is starting to get a little long and redundant. A lot of the information about album releases, etc can be moved to the album pages. Considering the subject's years in activity and notability, we should really attempt to get it to max 40 kb, its 49 now, so a little more trimming is necessary. Keep events in logical order and not chronological. GreekStar12 (talk) 02:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, well i shortened it and took out all the stuff that isn't needed/factual/can be put on another page. it might still need a little more, but now we basically need to take our sources and put them into the article. It's at a much better length now.GreekStar12 (talk) 13:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Alpha TV ranking
Before removing this again, know that IFPI executives were present on the show and they claimed to use the official ifpi list. What they actually used is another story and we are not here to speculate. The way that it is written it is not saying that Paparizou has the 14th highest sales or is the 14th most successful singer indefinitely, it is just saying that this organization/network ranks her at this number based on this specific criteria. Unfortunately, due to thresholds being lowered so much over the years, as seen with her ranking that would otherwise seem too high, this does not provide an accurate ranking for actual success/sales but it is accurate in its criteria which was strictly based on the most gold and platinum certifications earned (like if giro apo t'oneiro is actually certified 11x platinum officially by ifpi due to lowered thresholds and newspaper sales then im pretty sure paparizou would be close to #1 lol, which pragmatically would be ridiculous but under this criteria would be accurate.) they also announced amounts of certifications as proof. this kind of source is fair game and is notable because alpha is a notable network and not something completely random/relevant. as far as the article of best selling albums in greece, i had no doubt that the information there was correct and should definitely be placed on any existing album pages, however the reason why it didn't warrant an article is because there is no source saying that the way ifpi declares its most successful album is based on unit sales and not actual copies. luckily, they are not like riaa who ranks best-selling albums/artists on unit sales/discs awarded (which is misleading), ex they rank garth brooks as the number 1 solo artist based on certifications but that doesn't mean that he has sold more than say michael jackson or whoever or that springsteen's live album is actually the best-selling live album of all time because it was a 4 disc set lol. in this case it is clearly stated that it is about certifications and unfortunately some people are going to misunderstand that but that's not really our problem. same thing with opinion pieces like rolling stone's 500 greatest albums or singers lists, it doesn't mean its actually true or set in stone, but a notable organization identifies it as such. also, when reverting edits, please be less careless not to revert other useful edits, as were the sales back to the unsourced 200,000. GreekStar12 (talk) 00:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It was determined in the past though consensus that this show is not considered a reliable source as it contradicts other reliable sources (including from IFPI directly) during past episodes. (The discussion is on some talk page. I will search for it.) The criteria for compiling various "lists" on the show have also been brought to question in the past. Although the past consensus stemmed mostly from questionable album sale numbers, we can not be selective with sources and only pick the "good" out of them unfortunately. It was also determined in the past that the show is not affiliated with IFPI in anyway, except claims made by the show (questionable at that) saying that they use IFPI charts as a source. Which exact IFPI executive was there that day? If it is determined that a mention of the ranking is notable enough to be kept in the article, then it needs to be reworded to reflect that fact that it is not affiliated with IFPI, or official in any way. Regarding album sales from newspapers (specifically last Paparizou album), it is a whole complicated situation that needs to be addressed in the near future on Wikipedia. (I wish we could talk via private correspondence so I could explain the issue in detail) According to direct communication with IFPI (via email), there are two types of newspaper releases in Greece. One of them IFPI counts sales for, the other they do not. Bottom line is that the 11x Platinum claimed for Paparizou is not by IFPI, but from her record label and the newspaper.Greekboy (talk) 05:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know who else was in the discussion, but as far as I know none of the four of us have actual knowledge to determine the show's credibility, affiliation, or sources apart from just speculation and that's not what we are here to do. And I don't actually remember the names of people but they were affiliated with ifpi. additionally many of the guests were some of the most respected music industry executives who speak frequently of topics relating to the industry. Additionally, quite a few of the artists showed up on the show and if their placing or # of certifications was wrong I don't think they would go on set and sit there and pretend everything is fine b/c it is their image they r trying to protect. You should realize that no matter what the organization most lists/rankings are bullshit and never completely accurate, just as i described above for rolling stone and Recording Industry Association of America. We are just here to report what is widely accepted and not speculate and go undercover, which is original research. Like ie VTLNZ was widely reported as reaching gold status in one week and the gold disc was also awarded in under two weeks. I read a blog entry by a guy who was in doubt that the album actually went gold in one week, so he called ifpi. they told him that it takes a couple of weeks for them to calculate shipments (which is why most albums dont debut on the chart until after 2/3 weeks after release) and said that they had not yet confirmed the sales of VTLNZ, even though the disc had already been awarded! So if even a physical certification is unreliable what does that mean for everything else? we cannot go around speculating and trying to disprove everything that's potential bullshit, especially in Greece where organizations have no order, we have to just publish what other major organizations publish, unless there is a significant controversy about it that can be proven by another notable source. The only way you can contradict it is by giving an equally notable source that disproves it. but in this case u probably wont find that since alpha is one of the most notable networks, but even then it is still allowed to be included because that is just that networks ranking based on their criteria. like if i said that for me X was the greatest singer ever, you couldn't just cancel that out, you'd have to include another ranking alongside it to prove another point of view. like u could potentially have something like "Rolling Stone ranks X as the greatest singer of all time. Spinner ranks X #1 on their worst singers of all time." 2 complete opposites, but still allowed to be put in. This is also eligible for non-opinion related publications: ie michael jackson's w.w. sales for years have widely been reported as 800 million, but some other notable publications have estimated it to 400 million, and both are published in his article. Additionally they proved most of their rankings by providing amounts of certifications. The reason why it is fully eligible to be in the article is b/c it is not set in stone saying indefinitely that paparizou is the 14 best selling female artist of all time. I think what we should do though is beside the reference provide an additional note describing that, as said on the show, in greece sales numbers are not available for most artists and ifpi can only account the gold and platinums an artist receives and also mention the thresholds lowering over the years, making it easier to receive a certification, which would give people a greater understanding for why she ranked so high.
 * Again, I didn't read you whole response word for word, as it seems like word play. Anyway, burden of proof lies with the editor wishing to add the information. It is your job to prove that the source is reliable and should be added to wikipedia. It is not our job to disprove it. (even if we have in the past). I have seen the exact episode now, and there was no one there from IFPI just for the record. But anyway, I think the current wording works. Don't know about others though. Greekboy (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, i was only joking about GATO and i never thought it was officially going to be certified 11x plat. ever since singles began being sold digitally riaa certifies those as single sales, but in some instances the single had sold a certain amount digitally and also enough to be certified physically, so they awarded both. maybe they'll do s/t similar with the newspaper. i no the album page has no source for this, but from what it said, minus the newspaper shipment GATO should have sold about 15K, not quite 11x plat material lol and btw, still no chart positions? GreekStar12 (talk) 21:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not what they are doing. Like I said there are two types of releases. To sum up the situation (too long to post here), one type of release is not monitored by IFPI, while the other type is. It has to do with how the album is released with/by the newspaper and label. And lol, nope still no charting positions. IFPI is still redoing their charting systems. Hopefully they will finish it this year....Greekboy (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Greek? (Part 2)
I would like to re-open an old debate (which I was not present for at closing) that is now in the archives. It was determined a few month ago to change the previous consensus of the opening paragraph from "...is a Greek singer born and raised in Sweden..." to "...is a is a Greek-Swedish singer....". Taking a further look at this subject and at guidelines located at Manual_of_Style_%28biographies%29, it states that normally the country which the person is a citizen of at the time of notability, or ethnicity if relevant to the persons notability should be mentioned. But it is very questionable if Paparizou even hold Swedish citizenship to begin with, and obviously her Greek ethnicity is part of her notability.

Taking a closer look at the details: It is known (via electoral roles and the fact that she held a government job as well as the way Greek nationality law works) that Paparizou hold Greek citizenship. You can view the electoral roles here by inputting Paparizou's personal information (Επώνυμο: ΠΑΠΑΡΙΖΟΥ, Όνομα: ΕΛΕΝΗ, Όνομα Πατέρα: ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ, Όνομα Μητέρας: ΕΥΦΡΟΣΥΝΗ, Έτος Γέννησης: 1982) and then pressing "Αναζήτηση". Viewing this information, confirms her Greek citizenship as only Greek citizens can vote in Greece. According to Swedish nationality law, you are not granted automatic Swedish citizenship at birth unless your parents are Swedish citizens. You may by naturalized later on though. Dual-citizenship was not allowed prior to 2001, unless you acquired the other citizenship automatically at birth. Papaizou's parents couldn't have been Swedish citizens, as they would have to give up their Greek citizenship, which means Paparizou wouldn't have Greek citizenship. So it seems Paparizou may not have have Swedish citizenship to being with.

Because of this (complication) situation, I propose to change the sentence in the lead paragraph back to "...is a Greek singer born and raised in Sweden..." as it covers all the bases and properly complies with WP:NAMES guidelines. Greekboy (talk) 17:01, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

"Officially" that was the case, but there are many instances where people were granted dual citizenship before 2001. It isn't entirely unlikely that she gained citizenship later either to be able to have voting rights. As for the first point. She became famous in Sweden (unlike Kalomoira who became famous first in Greece even though she was raised overseas). So you could argue that she became "relevant" first in Sweden. So since we don't know whether or not she has Swedish citizenship I say we stick to the current definition. --Lilyserbia (talk) 03:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact is, we can not seem to verify if she actually has Swedish citizenship, rather than just assuming. Swedish nationality law leaves doubts of that. That alone doesn't make the current version right. You are just assuming that she has Swedish citizenship, and are adding that to the lead. The proper way to go to cover this complicated situation is "...is a Greek singer born and raised in Sweden...". That covers her Greek citizenship and her upbringing in Sweden clearly, while more information about her upbringing can clearly be read further down. Unless there are sources provided saying that she is in fact a Swedish citizen, it is original research to say she is without proof. Greekboy (talk) 12:58, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * And you can't prove that she doesn't have Swedish citizenship. That being said though I don't think it matters. I think the -Swedish should be put in there because she's lived the vast majority of her life in Sweden and it's where she became famous. I find that very relevant. Citizenship at the end of the day is just a legality. Cornelis Vreeswijk was never a Swedish citizen but no Swede would deny he was Swedish. --Lilyserbia (talk) 23:28, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You must prove that she has it. There is no need to prove that she doesn't have citizenship because you have failed to prove that she does. The burden of proof lies with those who make the claims, not those who refute them. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:38, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you just chose to ignore my post. Merry Christmas. --Lilyserbia (talk) 23:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest I just read the first sentence before replying. I think Greekboy's wording works well since without knowing whether she is a Swedish citizen or not, we cannot say she is Swedish. Because Sweden was a big part of her childhood, it is said that she was born and raised there. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 01:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure it's not entirely wrong to refer to her as a Swedish-Greek, but Wikipedia has it's own set of guidelines, and referring to her as a Swedish-Greek on this encyclopedia goes against the definition on WP:MOS. "Greek singer born and raised in Sweden" is crystal clear and works against the ambiguities raised here. As for Cornelis Vreeswijk, your logic is flawed because I'm assuming that you are offering an example of a widely known or influential figure of Swedish history, whereas this is not the case here. According to WP:MOS(Bio), nationality should be defined as "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable." The key term here is "citizen", but we cannot prove that Paparizou holds citizenship as there are serious doubts put fourth. Furthermore the page for Cornelis Vreeswijk has more or less the format we are going for with Paparizou; He is not referred to as Swedish on his page. Imperatore (talk) 09:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)


 * This is irrelevant but what government job? ambassador of ministry of tourism? i don't think that's actually a government job and i've never heard it referred as such and also there is no reference in the article about the depth/position of work she has there. I'm pretty sure it was only celebrity endorsement which is not government affiliated, i mean she wasnt a minister. Any government job would take too much time from her life to be as active in music as she is and I doubt that they would hire with a high school education and no prior experience...just saying, let's get some sources on this. Anyway, I disagree and I see Lilyserbia's point. I think the citizenship issue is being taken way too seriously and in the end is just a legality. I believe that you are misunderstanding the scope of the sentence in the wiki guidelines. It says citizen at the time of notability because that is usually the case as most people do not become notable in a country that they do not legally live in, but i think that most importantly it focuses on where they have become notable as an act. Paparizou became notable in Sweden. if it were not for Sweden she would have no career. BTW the time that Antique appeared in Sweden nobody knew them in Greece. They were not known in Greece until the national final in 2001. All of their first Swedish releases were not released in Greece until after that. The point is that Paparizou became notable in Sweden. Period. She was additionally born there. She has only (permanently) lived in Greece for a total of six years (which if she did not have Greek parents, in most cases is not even long enough for naturalization in Greek nationality law). I know that some of you have argued putting in Greece because that's where she became notable as a solo act, but in wikipedia guidelines it's about where the artist became notable overall. all solo artists that began in a band use their bands origin/establishment year for their pages, not their solo years, ie Beyonce Knowles. That's why we have 1999 as her startdate and Stockholm as her origin. BTW I know this doesn't really apply here b/c paparizou is most notable in Greece, but I've noticed very flawed logic in Greece: they call someone who is famous with no real association to Greece Greek just because they have one parent or w.e. even though Greece has in no way been a part of their career, while on the other hand you can be a second generation immigrant born and raised in Greece and they will still call you wherever it is that your family originally came from. Parents etc should not matter (unless there actually is citizenship through jus sanguinis); I hear people in Canada calling themselves Greek because their grandparents came from there lol, they are simply Canadians with Greek origin who have no relation to Greece apart from perhaps taking advantage of their eligibility to citizenship, which isn't even that big of a deal b/c in most countries if you live there long enough you will become naturalized. Like for example, I'm going to bring up a situation that received some media attention in Greece: Naila from Next Top Model who I believe was born (not sure, but for the sake of this conversation, let's assume so) and raised in Greece but does not have citizenship. If someone born and raised in Greece but with no citizenship began their career/notability there, would their potential wiki page not say "X is a Greek X"? I think all of these factors make a point to calling her Greek-Swedish. Also, the Cornelius page says Swedish-Dutch, but I wouldn't use that as a point of reference either way since it is not a high quality article. I think "Greek singer born and raised in Sweden" is just a way to weasle out of making a definitive statement and doesn't comply with MOS more than anything else. Ok, so it works for the article, but what about the bigger picture? What about her song/album articles? They are more or less supposed to follow this format: ""X" is a song by country of origin genre (unless the artist has way too many genres) specific occupation name of artist. So what are we going to write? "'An Isouna Agapi' is a song by Greek singer born and raised in Sweden Elena Paparizou"??? Ideally, it should look more like "'An Isouna Agapi' is a song by Greek-Swedish pop/laiko singer Elena Paparizou, written by Giorgos Sabanis and Niki Papatheohari for her fifth studio album Giro Apo T' Oneiro and released on 24 February 2010 as the album's second single." GreekStar12 (talk) 21:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to be honest. I did not read this all, but rather skimmed it as it seems like a giant rant. Just to answer the last part you would say "singer Elena Paparizou". If anyone wants more information, that is what wiki-links are for. Also you are not supposed to mention genre anyway. (Like you suggestion: pop/laiko singer Elena Paparizou) Also the Greek citizenship has been proven as per voting records. The Swedish citizenship has not. And the Swedish citizenship law leaves questions on if she even holds it. And as you know: "Burden of proofs lies with the editor wishing to add the information". Plain and simple. Greekboy (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * OK obviously you did not read it b/c you completely missed the point. I never said she didn't have Greek citizenship, I just said there needs to be a source in the article about the "government job" as I was reminded about it. Burden of proof has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. What do we need to prove? That she began her career in Sweden? Despite MOS mentions both place of notability and citizenship, I'm pretty sure in this complicated situation place of notability would come out on top regardless of citizenship, and I gave a very good example of that above. Why bother commenting on s/t you didn't read? Point is she became notable in Sweden, notability has to be where they first became notable, not as a solo act. And I'm in WP:Songs. In most cases you are supposed to include genres if the artist's genre is limited, as Beyonce is always referred to as R&B and Spears as pop, this is only omitted when you have someone like Prince whose genre you could never describe in 1-2 words. And nationality/country of origin is ALWAYS supposed to be mentioned on the song articles, doing it your way is just trying to weasle out of it and doesn't comply with the project's rules. I don't know why you bothered commenting about this because you two have made it clear in the past that you have minimal to no interest in the Greek song articles so of course this issue wouldn't interest you. Anyway I think I'm the only one who has actually ever created a decent song article that actually complies with WP:Songs. GreekStar12 (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I was honest with you from the first sentence. I did not read it all, but rather skimmed it. So I don't know why you would even bring that up not once, not twice, but three times. I did not have the energy (and others too, not just me for the record) to sit here and read what seemed like a long rant that is very obvious from the first few sentences. It jumps from Paparizou, to Beyonce, to Canadians, to Next top model, to etc., all without paragraphs too. :p I am a member of WP:Songs. I fail to see what your personal attacks on writing style have to do with anything. Perhaps we should all bow down to you for being the "only one who has actually ever created a decent song article that actually complies with WP:Songs" in your opinion....with questionable sources and sensational synthesis at that. And do I need to remind you about your "Greek superstar Sakis Rouvas" pages? So I would be careful pointing fingers concerning writing style, when you have a fair share of problems yourself. As the old saying goes, ''Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".


 * Anyway, MOS is pretty clear on the subject of the lead. Regarding song pages, according to the FA models listed on the project's page, not including genre or nationality is perfectly acceptable. A vast majority of the examples do not list a genre for the artist itself, but rather just the song, which the article is about. Here are some examples: "Rich Girl", "What You Waiting For?", "Something", "Hey Jude". Notice that the last two are both Beatles songs, one just says "by The Beatles", the other says "by the English rock band The Beatles". So obviously both forms are acceptable.Greekboy (talk) 05:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Length
Some people need to work on their summarizing skills. This article is already way too long and we are getting warnings about it. Especially the 2003-05 section, considering that all of the events can be covered by 1)the album article and 2)Greece in ESC 2005. There was already unimportant info on there before the expansion. I dont have a problem with posting info thats not top importance when there is no other place it can fit in to, but its really redundant in this case. I still dont think anything even in the summarized version is that important, but for those who do it can easily all be put into one sentence instead of one for each piece of info, which is undue weight. It just shouldnt contain descriptions of very specific events.

Some of the things included dont even come close to notability, ie the plane w flight # 001, what the plane did upon landing, go helena go greece slogan, ert studio party, appearing on posters and ads and then again mentioning the song played in the commercial, the fans greeting her - that happens for every returning artist, and the fact that she was a bookie favourite - who cares, she won, that says enough, stats dont belong here. In either case, even without this info the section is too long and needs to move it to its corresponding articles. I used the example of the 2003-05 section of the Michael Jackson article; one would expect that to be huge, but it only contains a couple of sentences summarizing the overall events as a detailed version exists in the trial article. If that can be done for those occurances, which were 100,000x more significant and memorable than anything here, I dont see why this section needs to be so long. GreekStar12 (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I was reading over the Eurovision years section and found that the organization is a little awkward. It mentions her Eurovision win when talking about the album, but then explains it much later. The time jump seemed weird and for someone who did not know much about Eurovision the lack of obvious chronological order in this case is confusing. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Albums sales
Please, stop telling lies and misunderstanding about Elena's album sales. It is known by official IFPI certified sales she has reached more than 200k, as follows:


 * Protereotita 87,000
 * Iparhi Logos 40,000
 * The Game Of Love 40,000
 * Vrisko to logo na zo 30,000
 * Giro apo t'oneiro 12,000


 * TOTAL sales: 209,000

WHY people here is obsessed writting only 170k?? We don't want to exaggerate the sales, nor to understimate them, but just official and correct information, please.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080424025543/www.musiconline.gr/php/articles.php?lng=gr&pg=29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.43.200.179 (talk) 10:02, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed text
Per WP:COATRACK: *The show premiered to a strong ratings share initially, but showed a consistent decline from week to week, while being critically panned for its low production and entertainment value.
 * While in years previous to this a supposed rivalry between Anna Vissi and Despina Vandi received heavy media attention and competition as to which artist would ultimately come out on top, Paparizou essentially replaced the two musicians as the top contemporary female artist in their absences during the latter half of the decade. In reviewing her comeback album, Apagorevmeno (2008) after three years since her last release, Haris Simvoulidis of Avopolis said that Vissi gave the impression of trying to catch up to her contemporaries, Paparizou and Peggy Zina, who were the most culturally relevant female acts of that era. However, by the end of the decade her popularity was in decline as was most of the laïko-pop scene and image-based singers, partially due to hardships faced by the Greek music industry including piracy, the financial crisis, and changing musical tastes.

Baffle gab1978 (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

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