Talk:Hell (DC Comics)

limbo
should there be a part of this article about the DC limbo? I mean first of all limbo is supposed to be a part of hell, and to be a comic character not used could be considered hell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.108.194 (talk) 01:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Interesting point. Limbo is depicted in Kid Eternity, where Dream has banished Beelzebub (who, now in human form, takes Judas Iscariot as his lover) after Lucifer's abandonment of Hell.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 19:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

DC Comics / Vertigo versions separate?
Where is it stated anywhere that there are two separate versions of Hell in play here? Sandman and its related books take place within the DC Universe. Etrigan appears in Sandman's version of Hell. Sandman's narrative makes it clear that the DC Comics Hell is ever-changing, so all of the events depicted in Hell actually fit together because of the place's very nature. I think the burden of proof here is on showing that there are two versions. Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 14:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The Vertigo Kid Eternity clearly features the DCU Hell.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 12:02, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The two versions are well documented, hence the two separate sections, and all the references. You are always welcome to do your own research on the matter. Some helpful reading for you both link 1, and link 2. --Xero (talk) 16:56, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That doesn't say what you are saying, however. You seem to be making a gross overgeneralization.  I've read The Sandman for example, and it never left the DC Universe, as one can see at Dream's wake with the presence of Wesley Dodds, Clark Kent, Martian Manhunter, Batman, and Darkseid, among others.  --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 00:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So far, none of Xero's citations have said what he has said, that the Vertigo concept of Hell separated from the DC line. All his citations say is that DC created a mature readers line called Vertigo which restricted crossovers.  None of the citations say that two concepts of Hell emerged from that editorial separation.  DC Universe characters continued to make guest appearances in DCU-based Vertigo titles and vice versa, although, with the exceptions of Crisis on Infinite Earths and Invasion! (which had explicit crossovers with Swamp Thing (#44-46 (not to mention #47-50 mentioning it still occuring) and #80-81, respectively)) after it became a mature readers title, no DCU crossover told readers to readers to read Vertigo Comics.  In fact, most of the DCU-based Vertigo characters make cameos in Infinite Crisis #6.  I have removed Xero's claims about diverging concepts of Hell until he can find WP:RS that actually make such a statement.  The Neil Gaiman quote is not terribly relevant, and its usage to that effect here is a violation of WP:OR.  Without WP:RS specifically citing that DC and Vertigo have separate concepts of Hell, I cannot allow Xero's edits to remain in place.  Wikipedia policy does not allow for the sorts of interpretations that Xero is making, valid or not.  --Scottandrewhutchins (talk)


 * Regressively editing an article remove that proof is a rather interesting tactic. Next time, read the article. --Xero (talk) 09:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It is a violation of Wikipedia policy to cite sources that do not say what they claim that you say. I checked your links.  they are not used in a valid manner as per Wikipeida policy.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 14:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You asked for proof of a separation between DC Comics and Vertigo, proof was provided, since you insist on being disruptive, I will just have to get a third party to mediate and decide the issue. A discussion topic has been created here WikiProject Comics - Hell (DC Comics) --Xero (talk) 16:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Your supposed proofs fail under Wikipedia guidelines. Your Neil Gaiman quote is not properly cited, nor does it say anything regarding Hell.  In fact, it says that even though his books became further removed in continuity from the mainstream DC Universe, they were still set there.  Your use of this quote fails under WP:NOR.


 * You claim that Jack Kirby introduced the concept of Hell. As far as I can tell (I do not have access to Detective Comics #482-485 or Wonder Woman #280 or 282), the first story to actually state that Etrigan is from Hell came when Alan Moore cited his promotion to a Rhyming Demon in his guest appearance in Swamp Thing.  It certainly was not stated or shown in the Kirby series.  Therefore, your claim fails under WP:NOR and WP:Manual of style (writing about fiction).  Claiming that Kirby created the concept of Hell based on what later writers of his character said is known as writing from an in-universe perspective, and is inappropriate for Wikipedia.


 * You claim that Karen Berger editorially-mandated a separation between DC and Vertigo Comics continuities. None of the three sources that you cite actually says this, and your first, being an archive of a discussion board, fails under WP:RS.  Your use of the others to support a claim that they do not actually make is again a violation of WP:NOR and WP:Verifiability.  As Wikipedia is a tertiary source, your sources must be reliable sources, and they must actually claim what you say they claim.  If they involve an interpretation of those sources, as yours do, they constitute original research and are not appropriate for Wikipedia.


 * Simply because you either do not understand or do not agree with Wikipedia's rules does not make my edits "disruptive." All I am doing is keeping the article in line with Wikipedia's standards as a tertiary source. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

World's Finest Comics #269
Where does this issue fit into all this? According to comicbookdb.com, the Captain Marvel, Jr. story in World's Finest Comics #269 features Asmodeus, Satan, and Beelzebub. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 19:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Constantine?
Constantine is half-demon? I'm confused. I know he has demon blood...but this was mainly because the demon said 'Let me do a transfusion or I kill some babies' and John, at least at that point, didn't want that to happen. Lots42 (talk) 10:02, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

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Fixing References in Hell (DC Comics)
Can someone please help me merge the three References (#83, 84 & 85) in The Second Triumvirate section into divisions of The Demon (vol. 3) #5-7 (November 1990-January 1991) (Reference #38)? And, at the same time, could someone please tell me what it is that I did wrong in doing this merger? I've tried to do it in every way possible based on past References and somehow I can't do it at all. And I'd like to have it done NOW, as in immediately, because it's driving me crazy not being able to do this! Thank you. (By the way, the listing of the Second Triumvirate of Hell is taken from "Triumvirate of Hell", one of the listings in the website The Unofficial Guide to the DC Universe. If anyone wishes to fix or adjust it, please do so.) Malcolmlucascollins (talk) 03:47, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

UPDATE: It's still not right and I still can't get it right!. Can someone please merge References #83, #84 and #85 into divisions of Reference #38? And please do it a.s.a.p.! This is the right way to do this and so far it hasn't been done correctly. Please, someone help! I'm going to keep checking this article out whenever I can and I hope it'll be done right soon.Malcolmlucascollins (talk) 23:41, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

UPDATE 2: I'd also like to have the Reference used for "Cerberus the Hellhound" to be merged with "Charon" in the section "Minor Gentry" of Vertigo, please. Again, I tried to do it myself based on past References and somehow all I did was screw it up.Malcolmlucascollins (talk) 03:14, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

UPDATE 3: Thank you, whoever you are, for helping me out with this! There's just two little things wrong with it:


 * The two characters in the subsection "Minor Gentry" of the Vertigo section "Lesser Demons"-Cerberus the Hellhound and Charon-still need to be merged as Reference #94 a b.
 * In the "Reign in Hell" section, References #16 and #18 need to be merged into Reference #16 a b.

Further help with these is most appreciated!Malcolmlucascollins (talk) 18:13, 15 July 2018 (UTC)