Talk:Hellenic Police

Image of Greek police car needs to be added
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnadi/14387219/in/set-758388/

Whatever happened to the Ομάδα Σ?
I remember a number of years ago there was a special police unit which had custom modified performance cars (such as Porche, Ford Cosworth, Alpha Romeo, etc.). The unit was created to deal with high speed chases, etc. I was hoping to read about it here and didn't find anything. Then I checked the official website and there's no mentioned there anywhere. Was the unit disbanded? -- Kimon talk 02:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Stink has it they entered the cars in illegal races and eventually crashed them.

Iospress
I see that the specific anarchist network is used as a source in this article, supporting a link between the police and the G. Down. By a quick check iospress is the main defender of indymedia in Greece [][]. Such sources should be avoided since they don't meet wp:rs criteria.Alexikoua (talk) 14:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Iospress Alex is not a different newspaper, is the name of a section of Eleytherotypia for 20 years of the 35 years of editorial life of the newspaper, even if in some times it existed as included co-editon. I'd like to point out that articles of newspapers are are allways signed... and the core of Press Freedom is pluralism, in the same pages of Eleytherotypia where also articles advocating for regulation or deletion of the law over University Asylum, even more, for more than two decades politicians that voted for regulation of the university asylum (law under wich Indymedia functions) had the printed "forum" to make their case heard...

35 years Alexikoua... are equivalent to our modern history with all its glory and faults, it's not a "delete button".

Further more, i'd also like to point out, that there is no other printed document except IOSpress that points out that the alledged KYP document -fake proof of collaboration of Michaloliakos and Pleyris with KYP- is actually fake! (Even golden Dawn itself has failed to keep the court of law decision that calls that paper a fake, online, infact it's link is broken). Is that perhaps advocating for Golden Dawn by IOSpress? Also please keep in mind, the section is called "ALLEGATIONS of ties with Golden Dawn" not "TIES with Golden Dawn"... as such is supposed to be a lists with printed-public allegations, making available the printed (links) proof of the variable historic moments... I'd like for instance to see a link of A1 newspaper (even if partisan) in all cases, so the reader can have an even more global view of the occurences... msymeonakis (talk) 09:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Hallo again Alexikoua, once again IOS press is not a different magazine-newspaper, ios-press is eleytherotypia newspaper, if you want however you can delete the indymedia links since you think they're unsupported (I think those where supposed to support as second source Golden Dawns being attacked while police didn't protect her).
 * Of course i don't have any problem whatsoever to add in the controversy "the Syriza photo op", but i think you can find much better sources than digital-press, this was all over mainstream media... P.S. I'm adding the correction "plaincloth police" instead of police. : )  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msymeonakis (talk • contribs) 09:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Bare in mind that under greek law, and it had not been changed prior to Xenios Zeys operations, nor it did after, asylum seekers can apply for asylum even if they have allready entered the country, legaly or illegaly. Said that, without the formentioned law being changed, the one that braking the law is the country itself... consequently, on the basis of this contradiction, the European Court decised on it (in Law it is called "Precedent") and the arrested was deemed 12.000 euro compensation. So lets do the math... how many where arrested during Xenios Zeys operations? (of course i can find the EU court decision). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msymeonakis (talk • contribs) 09:20, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * About the Syriza controversy, sources like Athensvoice and Vima, are quite good and as far I know objective and neutral. I would prefer to use them in an article like this, instead of iospress, which is in the border of rs. Agree about the plaincloth addition.Alexikoua (talk) 11:34, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I didn't say anything about neither Athens Voice nor Vima... i wrote only about some journal you added called "digital press" that you linked the immigration controversy... but since you mentioned it, Athens Voice is not a Political Newspaper is recreational one, plus it is free-press... so i got in the trouble to find you some more links to help your case... please feel free to check them. (Again i repeat Ios-press are pages of newspaper Eleytherotypia and cannot be regarded as different)

http://www.alphatv.gr/Newsroom/Alpha-News/Society/%CE%95%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B7-%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%BC%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7-%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82-%CF%86%CF%89%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%B9%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B9.aspx http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_07/11/2012_468890

you say... "The Coalition of the Radical Left, disagreed with the measures taken by the State authorities and the police against illegal imigration.[16]" (this is the link digital-press), there are many prestigious sources on Xenios Dias, it had been on the first pages of all Greek Mainstream Press, i think you should base you case on a better source... However i also provide you with the NSK traduction of the European Court Of Human Rights decision as mentioned before on this talk page... The IBRAHIMI case was on July 2012, you will find in it also other law precedents that covers pro-XeniosDias periods... So... Also the European Court of Human Rights disagrees with it... let me also mention that even UN disagrees with it, since greek handling of immigrants/asylum seekers is against the agreements signed by Greece itself in the UN...
 * On the immigration front now...

I'm afraid that the root of the problem with immigrants/asylum seekers in Greece is far more deeper than a political party disagreement (Europe since mid 90's offered volumes and volumes of studies for Greece (plus money!!!) to help itself...) but of course Greece failed even to read the Memorandum...). Greek goverment's incompetence, plus greek people's incompetence or unwillingness or lack of know-how in pressing its decision makers towards a change in their immigration/asylum policy i'm not sure it can be hidden under the rug of any Coalition-Shcoalition of the left. Please also ad the European decison on the "Disagreement" :)

here,site for PDF download. NSK = (Legal Council of the Greek State, translation of the minister for foreign affairs of decisions of the European Court of Human Rights) http://www.nsk.gov.gr/webnsk/search_edad.jsp download the "MAHMUNDI IBRAHIMI κλπ. 5" PDF

here direct PDF download. or to download the PDF MAHMUNDI IBRAHIMI vs. Greece download link http://www.nsk.gov.gr/webnsk/pdf.jsp?fileid=30637556

The same decision can be found in French at the European Court of Human Rights page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msymeonakis (talk • contribs) 10:15, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

It looks like the Greek (far) right is trying to sway (i.e. censor) Wikipedia by claiming well-regarded journalist and academic sources are "biased" against it. It's a classic trick they have been employing for decades now; everything that doesn't agree with Greek ethnocentrism is "anti-hellenic" and "anarcho-communist propaganda". Recently, Nikolaos Dendias was threatening to sue the BBC and the Guardian for publicizing incidents in which the Police tortured detainees. Mind you, torture and abuse are a recurring pattern with the Greek police. And as for its ties with Golden Dawn, they're well-known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.183.95 (talk) 05:58, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Greek Parliament resolution 1863/89 (National Army & Democratic Army Of Greece)

 * I hardly get how can it be my POV a law unanimously voted by the greek parliament... even tho I did vote to those elections...

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_civil_war#Post-war_division_and_reconciliation) Post war divisions and reconciliation In 1989, the coalition government between Nea Dimokratia and the Coalition of Left and Progress (SYNASPISMOS) - in which the KKE was for a period the major force - suggested a law that was passed unanimously by the Greek Parliament, formally recognizing the 1946-1949 war as a civil war and not merely as a communist insurgency ("Συμμοριτοπόλεμος") ( Ν. 1863/89 (ΦΕΚ 204Α΄) ).[58][59][60] Under the terms of this law, the war of 1946-1949 was recognized as a Greek Civil War between the National Army and the Democratic Army of Greece, for the first time in Greek postwar history. Under the aforementioned law, the term "communist bandits" (Κομμουνιστοσυμμορίτες, ΚΣ), wherever it had occurred in Greek law, was replaced by the term "Fighters of the DSE".[61]

please restore the names of the parties involved in the Greek Civil War, as unanimously voted in the Greek Parliament (1989)
 * Also thank you for pointing out the fact that the DEKEMBRIANA was just a fase of the greek civil war... however if you had followed the link provided, you'd notice it led to GEN. SCOBIE ultimatum citing the armed forces "National Army" (according to Greek Law Ν. 1863/89 (ΦΕΚ 204Α)) forces (linked it because half of them where city police and Gendermerie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ScobiUltimatum.png ), a composition totally different to today's greek army composition (Greek Citizens over the age of 18).

P.S.: Is the eleytherotypia case resolved?? msymeonakis (talk) 09:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The article states exactly that the Dem. Army was lead by the Communist Party [][][][][], I don't see why this should be removed but indeed its essential to the context. On the other hand there was no Army in Greece under the name simple name 'National Army', it would be more appropriate to briefly state that this was the army of the (legitimite that time) government.

I agree with you about the labelling of 'communist bandits', i.e. it's not part of this article.

I'm ok with eleftherytipia, but specifically iospress is on the border of wp:rs criteria. But if haven't something of more desent value its ok to have it still here.Alexikoua (talk) 20:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Also note in the Sacred Band wiki page... Ieros Loxos and 3 mountain Briagade was feared that if disbanded would "become individual recruts in a possibly EAM-dominated people's army (!)... That's the reason i abide with the Law Ν. 1863/89 when talking about the civil war. Plus it was a civil war... chances are that in the same family tree people of different parties where killed, making it unfair to legitimise on or the other. (also note that other civil wars that followed WWII where backed times and again by USA, UK and the RUSSIA, under this light i think legitimacy sound bit odd)...
 * That's exactly the reason! Both Greek D. Army and Greek Civil war have all the correlated information... and this is why, being here just as reference sound like charakterizing... think it the other way around for a moment (and plz keep in mind that ther is an opposite oppinion)... for example "between the imperialists and the greek D. army" (how does it sound?)... this is exactly what Law Ν. 1863/89, solves, it also solves other generalisations... for example not everybody who wanted to fight the germans was communist... still the outlets were not that much and readily available (K.Mitsotakis: "The Antistasi was mainly organised by the communists" mega chanel interview ican't easily find it for you...) (Kathimerini ...this i could easily find... "The KKE did call all parties to form a unified resistance against the germans and none of the existent political parties was willing).

msymeonakis (talk) 11:43, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * PS. do you have other issues with th eGolde Dawn Allegations, or we remove the dispute?

Copyvio section removed
I have removed the "Abuse of Tourists" section as it contains WP:Close paraphrasing and WP:Copyvios from the BBC website. In addtion the section is far too detailed and needs trimming per WP:UNDUE. If the incidents are so notable to be detailed to such degree they have to get their own articles but they cannot be accommodated in the present article at the current high level of detail. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  11:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:Close paraphrasing example from the article: Compare to the BBC website: Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις   11:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I've edited the section to remove copyvio material and summarize. Is that better?

{{quotation|

Abuse of Tourists
In July of 2012, Christian Ukwuorji, a US citizen, visited Greece. Police in Athens asked him for ID. Although he showed them his passport, he was arrested. At the station, Ukwuorji was beaten and woke up at a hospital with a concussion. He was released without being charged with any offenses. The US Embassy requested an investigation, but as of January 2013, there has been no response. The US Department of State updated its site with the following warning, "The U.S. Embassy has confirmed reports of U.S. African-American citizens detained by police authorities conducting sweeps for illegal immigrants in Athens".

Joel Stirling, 29, a Kiwi traveller reports that he was being handcuffed, beaten and robbed by Greek police in Crete, on 3rd of November, 2012.

Hyun Young Jung of South Korea was backpacking in Greece when he was stopped by police asking him for ID. After asking police for their verification of them being real police, he was beaten and arrested. He was taken to a local police station where he was again beaten twice. Jung was released a few hours later with no charges. He also alleged police used racially charged language. Afterwards, Jung went to the Korean Embassy for assistance. The incident became a full-scale diplomatic incident with the Korean Ambassador requesting meetings with Greek officials to request disciplinary measures for the police officers. }}

Transcendence (talk) 20:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. It is acceptable now. I have reinserted your edit. Best regards. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  20:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 15 January 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 05:39, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

– Wikipedia article should use titles that are "most commonly used in English-language sources" per WP:COMMONNAME. I used Google search to determinate the most commonly used names in sources: I think that those results are enough evidence that "Greek" versions are more common in English than "Helenic" ones. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hellenic Police → Greek Police
 * Hellenic Army → Greek Army
 * "Greek Police" vs "Hellenic Police":
 * Plain Google search: 340,000 results for "greek police" and 38,300 results for "Hellenic Police" (approximately 9:1)
 * Google news search: 5,240 results for "greek police" and 279 results for "Hellenic Police" (approximately 19:1)
 * Google books search: 7,270 results for "greek police" and 534 results for "Hellenic Police" (approximately 14:1)
 * "Greek Army" vs "Hellenic Army":
 * Plain Google search: 447,000 results for "greek army" and 172,000 results for "Hellenic army" (approximately 2.6:1)
 * Google news search: 941 results for "greek army" and 83 results for "Hellenic army" (approximately 11:1)
 * Google books search: 131,000 results for "greek army" and 6,950 results for "Hellenic army" (approximately 19:1)


 * Support Clearly the common name, Hellenic is a slightly obscure term in English these days. PatGallacher (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support modern English. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:54, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Another case where Google hits don't tell the whole story. The official English name for both is with "Hellenic", and "Greek army" and "Greek police" can equally be descriptive, which is especially evident when one bothers to check the actual hits in books: "army" and "police" are usually uncapitalized. "Greek army" is hence used to refer to any Greek military force from the Trojan War to present time, while "Greek police" can equally refer to the pre-1984 City Police and Gendarmerie. Constantine  ✍  07:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose Per Constantine. Just a few quotes under "Greek Army" from the news search:


 * These hits are obviously misleading. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 07:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * These hits are obviously misleading. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 07:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Support - seriously? The demonym for Greece is Greek. Red Slash 17:55, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: and for the US, "American". Perhaps we should change the U.S. Army to American Army, then? Or the People's Liberation Army to Chinese Army? If there is a specific official form, it should be preferred, especially if it aids disambiguation. Constantine  ✍  22:26, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, we're supposed to use common names at Wikipedia, not official ones. And U.S. is just as precise, more natural, just as recognizable, and more concise than American when used in regard to the army. "Greek" is more recognizable, natural, and concise than "Hellenic", and easily as precise. I can't see how a case could be made for one name being more consistent than the other. Regardless, the equivalent to U.S. Army would be Greece Army. Red Slash 04:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sadly, no, this is another erroneous argument. The adjectival form of "United States" is, you guessed it, "United States". So this "Greece Army" is, like the "España Army" below, complete nonsense. And I note that still no-one has even tried to refute the fact that the above usage as gleaned by Google hits is erroneous. It is simply assumed by those who support the move that because "Greek" is indeed more common than "Hellenic", this should automatically carry over to all state institutions of modern Greece. This is clearly not that clear-cut, as my examples re the US and China bear out. Constantine   ✍  08:14, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for conceding what the WP:COMMONNAME is. I think that's cinches it. If you don't like the "España Army" example because of the noun/adjective distinction, try "Español Army", and the Spain point still stands, though I make a better one in my response to you below (Nippon/Nipponese vs. Japan/Japanese). PS: I for one would have no objection to moving U.S. Army to United States Army; I'm surprised it would be at the abbreviated form.  Oh, wait, . "American Army" would be invalid under WP:AT because it's ambiguous ("American" has more than one meaning; see ongoing RM about this at Talk:American. And "American Army" isn't the translated name of the entity; you're comparing apples and oranges. Even more so with "Chinese Army"; nothing like that is the name of that entity. The name of the entity in question in this RM is Ελληνική Αστυνομία, i.e. [Greek word for "Greek"] [Greek word for Police].  In conventional, modern English we translate this as "Greek Police". The name of the army of the PRC does not take the form [Chinese for "Chinese"] [Chinese for "Army"] in any Chinese language, or anything similar ("Army of China", etc.); its name really does translate as People's Liberation Army.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:30, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. "Hellenic" is used in anthropology/archaeology to refer to ancient Greece. Dr. K's examples are poor, because the first provides the ancient context of Xerxes, and the second doesn't just say "Greek army" but "ancient Greek army". If our other articles on modern Greek institutions go with Hellenic, however, this one should, too. The Greece-centric notion that all things Greek should be referred to as Hellenic in English because the endonym for Greece in Greek is Hellas, it not even slightly persuasive. We don't refer to the Deutsche Police or España Army.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:31, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Please keep you jabs out of this discussion. Terms like Greece-centric notion are insulting, presumptive, and void of AGF toward your fellow editors. You didn't accept my arguments, that's fine. But you don't have to paint them as "Greece-centric" just for the sake of insulting your fellow editors. I hope I don't have to be insulted to be able to discuss things with you. Δρ.Κ. λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.5ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  04:31, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * And "We don't refer to the Deutsche Police or España Army" is a red herring argument. No one advocates naming the present article into Ελλάς Police either. "Hellenic" is an English term, unlike "Deutsche"  or "España"... Constantine   ✍  08:06, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Dr.K./Δρ.Κ λόγος, I'm not using jabs or insults of any kind. "Greek-centric" means "centered on Greece, Greeks, the Greek language, or concerns relating thereto". That's an accurate description of the view that things relating to Greece use words (in English) derived from Greek-language Hellas on the basis that Greeks themselves prefer this term. If this were a discussion about Germans wanting everything about Germany to use Deutsche in English too, that would be a German-centric concern (i.e. a concern centered on Germany, the German language, Germans, and their preferences).  NB: I actually know Germans who insist that we should stop saying "German" and "Germany" (and that the Spanish should stop using Alemán), and everyone use "Deutsche" and "Deutschland", since that's the real/official name of the language and country. So Cplakidas/Constantine, it is not a red herring fallacy at all, but a comparison chosen carefully (though not carefully enough; see a bit later). Your own counter however, is a straw man fallacy; no one said anything about transliterating vs. not transliterating, so the "Ελλάς" argument is a complete non sequitur.  I do agree that Hellenic is an English word, and concede the point that the Deutsche comparison wasn't very apt after all; I was focused more on the situational than linguistic similarity when I chose it.  A better example would be expecting our articles about Japan and the Japanese to use Nippon and Nipponese to better match the native name of the country; these are in fact words in English. It would actually make  sense to do that than to do what's been proposed here, because "Nipponese" has no confusing alternative meaning, unlike "Hellenic" which commonly, probably  commonly, refers to ancient Greek culture in English, not modern. Another example would be expecting us to change articles about Ireland to refer to "Erin" (from Irish-language Éireann); Erin is in fact an English-language name for Ireland, simply not the common one. I can give you dozens more such examples if you like. This is a WP:COMMONNAME issue.  I see subjective reasons for opposing the move, but none based in WP:Article titles policy. (See RM notice: "Please base arguments on article title policy".)  To the extent the opposes address policy at all, they are making a WP:OFFICIALNAME argument, which doesn't overcome WP:COMMONNAME.  PS: The fact that the only opposition to the move as of this writing is from Greeks demonstrates that "Greek-centric", in the neutral, natural sense of this description, is an accurate assessment of the oppose rationale.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per arguments given by Constantine & Dr.k.Alexikoua (talk) 08:03, 18 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I arrived with a bias toward supporting a move with sentiments like those of User:SMcCandlish above. However, running a Google Books ngram shows that use of the capitalised "Police" favours "Hellenic" since 1984 (the "Hellenic Police" were established in 1984) though this does not hold true for the army.  I realise that these results have questionable accuracy.  — <span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"> AjaxSmack   01:48, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose – Per the argument given by Constantine. I see no reason for a change per WP:TITLECHANGES, and "Greek" has the potential to cause confusion. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:14, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
I think this one can be argued both ways, and that provided we have redirects in place (as we do currently) that from the point of view of reader experience (our bottom line) either is perfectly acceptable. Other thoughts on this? Andrewa (talk) 19:32, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


 * No problem with me. As you point out, that is the present situation. From where I stand, usage is not clear-cut on the specific terms, the whole "Greek" vs "Hellenic" debate in wider usage is moot since we are dealing with specific titles or brands if you want. On such issues I always prefer the official translations on any term as long as there is no ambiguity, disputed claim or any other truly compelling reason to do otherwise. If the Greek state and its institutions prefer "Hellenic", issue their official documents in this form, then that's it. Constantine  ✍  20:33, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The point at which I was hinting is that while both sides seem rather passionate about the issue, the arguments don't support this passion. There are arguments on both sides, but none of them are show-stoppers, despite being presented as such. Someday I hope somebody will write a PhD on this online phenomenon, and the Wikipedia page histories will provide some good material I think. If I had 40 lifetimes I would probably get around to it myself. Andrewa (talk) 07:21, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

== Hellenic vs Greek ==

Out of interest, why is this article called Hellenic with Greek only redirecting? The reason I ask is I always assumed Hellenic to be the pan-national adjective applying to all things Greek, so in this case Hellenic would include anything Cypriot. Collectively Greece and Cyprus are frequently referred to as the Hellenic states. yes Greek police can in no way be misleading. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 16:56, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Please ignore the above observation, I am new to the article and completely missed the above discussion. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 16:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

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Christmas
Merry Christmas from Canada. 2605:B100:131:51A4:1D16:5BA0:1D10:A05 (talk) 23:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

DIAS?
The article uses the term (is it an acronym?) "DIAS" a few times, but I can't find anywhere that gives a clear idea of what it means. I notice that it's always part of the phrase "motorcycle police unit DIAS officers". Is that supposed to man that DIAS is synonomous with "motorcycle police unit", or that it's a specific type of motorcycle police unit, or that the officer has both the "motorcycle police unit" and "DIAS" attributes, but the two attributes are unrelated/independent (like the phrase "senior motorcycle-police-unit officer")? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.181.12.36 (talk) 19:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)