Talk:Helmut Schmidt

Untitled
NOT vandalism. same text as is in german Wikipedia.

Jewish ancestry and identity
Could we have some more info on Helmut Schmidts jewish ancestory and how it played into his politics? Also is he Germanys first ethnically Jewish chancellor?


 * Could first someone try to verify this information or give a source for it? de:Helmut Schmidt and both official biographies linked from there don't say anything about this. Smells a bit like a troll, but I'm not sure. -- till we &#9788; &#9789; | Talk 17:38, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Looked my self and found this http://www.das-parlament.de/2003/40_41/DaspolitischeBuch/006.html - a review of a book about Schmidt. There it is said that indeed his father was the illegitimate son of a jewish trader, but that Schmidt himself didn't know about this until later (it isn't specified what later is). I'd say this ancestory didn't play a role in Schmidts politics, it is not even sure if he knew about it then. I'm not sure how the category:Jews is organized, but I'm quite sure that Helmut Schmidt isn't placed there correctly, so I removed that category entry. -- till we &#9788; &#9789; | Talk 17:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Schmidt himself made that public in 1984, two years after he had left office. His biological grandfather gave Schmidts father Gustav to the Schmidt-family, who adopted the child. I don't think there was any influence on his politics as chancellor, and I certainly would not think of Schmidt as 'ethnically Jewish'. It's of course interesting when you look at his youth under the nazis. He always said he didn't like them, because they had forbidden the paintings of several artists he liked. That his father would have had serious problems, had his ancestory been revealed, was certainly a far stronger reason for him. Nevfennas 17:01, 5 May 2005 (UTC)


 * He's an ethnic Jew plain and simple, if you have Jewish backround, you are an ethnic Jew.


 * That's nonsense. Jewishness is not inherited genetically but culturally through indoctrination during one's upbringing. Maybe a look at Ethnicity will help. Mr Schmidt is not a Jew. He's just a heavy smoker. &#9798; CUSH &#9798; 18:38, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

A little clarity here. 1) Under traditional Jewish law, Helmut Schmidt is not Jewish, because his mother was not. For the same reason, neither was his father. 2) Under the Nuremberg laws of 1935, which defined "who is a Jew" for Nazi racial purposes, Schmidt would have been counted as a quasi-Jew and therefore not inexorably subject to disenfranchisement and deportation. However, he would have remained at considerable risk, and almost certainly not elegible for service as an officer in the Wehrmacht. Under the circumstances, he would have had to have been insane to reveal anything.

The Nazi laws established three categories of "Mischlinge" or people of mixed origin. Gender was irrelevant. The "worst," of course, was someone who had three Jewish grandparents and one Gentile grandparent. That person was flat-out "Jewish." The next "worst" was a "Mischling of the First Degree," meaning someone with two Jewish grandparents. In the least disadvantageous category belonged somone like Schmidt, who was a "Mischling of the First Degree," meaning someone who had one Jewish grandparent. Nonetheless it was hardly a desireable or "safe" situation for him.

It is worth noting the cynicism undergirding these laws in the first place. The authorities could "aryanize" people for whatever reason. Furthermore, exclusions were written into the laws for Hitler and all of the top Nazi brass. Therefore, if perchance the rumors surrounding Hitler's alleged Jewish grandfather somehow turned out to be true, Hitler himself would have remained beyond reproach, at least from an official standpoint. (Whether in fact Hitler's father, Alois (Schicklgruber) Hitler was in fact half-Jewish has never been conclusively proven.)

bamjd3d 0938 PST 21 June 2005


 * So did he "come out" about being Jewish before, after or during his chancellorary.


 * Just how stupid are u people?? He's a non-practicing lutheran, and has been all his life. His ancestry doesn't make him jewish, christian, muslim or anything; these are religions, not races! religion isn't in your f***ing blood! -- 82.198.201.170 (talk) 16:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

After all many Nazis had Jewish blood and got their Blood Certificate through corruption and friendship with Nazi leaders. Even Hitler accepted to give a Blood Certificate to Field Marshall Erhard Milch, whose father was Jew, as he was a good friend of Hermann Göring. So even in the worst times there are exceptions. It would be a very intersting movie: "Erhard Milch, the Jewish Nazi General"--81.36.211.93 (talk) 07:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Schmidt already knew in the 1930s about his Jewish grandfather. He falsified documents about his ancestry being not pure "arien", so he won't get any troubles (See: "Auf eine Zigarette mit Helmut Schmidt" by Giovanni di Lorenzo and Helmut Schmidt) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.111.207.1 (talk) 15:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

nukes
Although it might be true that he was against nuclear weapons in his early political days, it was Schmidt who made possible the permanent posting of cruise missiles in Germany in the 70s! Remarquable also are his appearances in Bohemian Grove about which has even written a few words in his biography.

Source?
User:212.185.62.98 inserted the following claim, about Schmidt's Jewish ancestry:
 * Only under pressure did Helmut Schmidt publicly admit the fact in 1984, after journalists had learned of it from his friend Valéry Giscard d'Estaing.

Do we have a source for this? The anonymous user has inserted dubious claims elsewhere. --- Charles Stewart 19:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Under pressure? I doubt it.  I've seen a number of interviews in which he VERY candidly talks about his Jewish ancestry, and the lengths with which he went to conceal it (by falsifying documents, etc).  I'll find the sources and post them here later.  I think he revealed it after he left office because it would no longer present any political problems for him.  He had been publicly excoriated by Menachem Begin for his role in the war; as I recall, Begin's language came across as harsh, undiplomatic, and downright mean.  But it begins to make sense if Begin knew - as he may well have - what most of the public didn't know at the time. If Begin did know about Schmidt's origins, it is understandable that he found that hard to take.  How members of the German, Israeli, and international public might have put together his partly Jewish origins and his wartime roles MAY have been why he never publicly revealed the matter until after he had retired.  Then again, it may just not have been an important factor in his thinking until he got older.  I will try to find out more about it.  David Cannon (talk) 10:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Source: Hand aufs Herz Helmut Schmidt im Gespräch mit Sandra Maischberger ISBN 3430179645

It's discussed inside the book which is mostly an interview with Schmidt. I don't know if there is an english translation, I doubt most of it would be interesting for people outside Germany). Nevfennas 22:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Karl Popper?
Schmidt is listed in the Karl Popper infobox as having been "influenced" by Popper. Is there anything to this? A Geek Tragedy 20:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Climate change skeptics category
I've included Helmut Schmidt to the global warming skeptics category because he is a textbook example of the mainstream skeptical opinions. See e.g.. He says that the hysteria should stop, the climate has always been changing, and the reasons behind various climate changes haven't been properly researched so far. It's how Wikipedia defines skeptics and his opinions are virtually identical to those of Michael Crichton and other skeptics. --Lumidek 06:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry - no. It is possible to think that the debate is hysterical - and at the same time agree that climate is changing by greenhouse gases. You should notice that he continues on arguing that Nuclear power is the only way to "protect the climate" (klima-shutz). --Kim D. Petersen 01:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Helmut Schmidt is a skeptic

English http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2011/03/helmut-schmidt-calls-for-ipcc-inquiry German http://www.mpg.de/print/990353 Get over it Kim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.188.63 (talk) 03:43, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Musician
Maybe it could be added that, as described in the German article, Schmidt is a fine pianist, with professional recordings to his credit. (e.g. Johann Sebastian Bach: Concerto for 4 Pianos and Strings in A minor, BWV 1065. Hamburg Philharmonic, Christoph Eschenbach, Justus Frantz, Gerhard Oppitz and Helmut Schmidt. Deutsche Grammophon 415 655-2. See also ). L&#39;omo del batocio 05:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Did I miss something?
The award of the Schleyer Prize is 2013 on this page and 2012 on the page of the Prize. Perhaps someone can find out what is the correct year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.15.29.124 (talk) 04:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

As of 2008, he is the oldest German Chancellor alive. Did I miss something? Which of them died this year? --85.181.238.167 (talk) 15:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

ONO one! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Max Mux (talk • contribs) 10:31, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I have removed 'as of 2008', which wrongly implied that he became the oldest living German Chancellor this year, when in fact he has been the oldest living for years. F W Nietzsche (talk) 05:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

He is the oldest chancellor alive since the death of Willy Brandt on 08th October 1992. And since 06th October 2009 he even is the oldest former Federal Minister alive since the death of Werner Maihofer.YOG&#39;TZE (talk) 22:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)YOG'TZE

I removed the statements mentioned above from the article. Although I only now understand the point of him being oldest minister, this is a trivial fact that, if it should be mentioned at all, should not be in the lead. Gunnar Hendrich (talk) 23:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Understood, but this fact is not totally unimportant as it's remarkable he's the oldest chancelor ever and the current oldest minister alive. If you want to remove this from the lead, please place it somewhere else in the article but from my POV, it could remain in the lead as it is important enough. YOG&#39;TZE (talk) 02:00, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

"Last surviving person to have been solely Chancellor of West Germany"
This needs to be phrased differently. Helmut Schmidt was Federal Chancellor or Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany. There was no office "Chancellor of West Germany" (definitely not with a capital "C"). I do not see what is supposed to be unnecessarily ambiguous about "Federal Republic of Germany before re-unification"; anything less ambiguous in this context risks being POV. --Boson (talk) 00:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with Chancellor of West Germany at all. You don't have any problem with "U.S. President" (with a capital P) instead of "President of the United States of America" either, don't you?--84.138.18.134 (talk) 23:04, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Bad example. The German Reunification didn’t create a new state. The former GDR just joined the Federal Republic of Germany. There is no difference in the Office of Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany and Chancellor of West Germany. Merkel has the same Office he had, so he isn't the last Chancellor. It is comparable to States joining the U.S (like Alaska and Hawaii did in 1959).

It is also not true that he never accepted a medal. He did reject them later, as it is against hanseatic tradition and forbidden for a (former) member of the Senate of Hamburg to accept orders or medals. But during WW2 he received and accepted an Iron Cross (see German Wiki Article of Schmidt or "Jonathan Carr, Helmut Schmidt. Econ, Düsseldorf/Wien 1985, S. 29. Zwei Bilder von 1942 belegen zudem das Eiserne Kreuz: Vgl. Hartmut Soell: Helmut Schmidt: 1918–1969. Vernunft und Leidenschaft. DVA, München 2004, zwischen S. 272–273. Jonathan Carr: Helmut Schmidt. Econ, Düsseldorf/Wien 1985, zwischen S. 136–137" and http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverdienstkreuz#Hamburg). --46.59.166.110 (talk) 01:47, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Accolade refs
Unfind ref to "Naples Prize of [sic.] Journalism / Neapel-Preis des Journalismus. Deleted. Sca (talk)
 * Having trouble finding refs to other 'accolades' – such as Spanish journalism prize Godo. Perhaps this section should be curtailed, leaving only the more notable awards. Sca (talk) 18:15, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:43, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

The various government members
I removed a massive unreferenced section. It didn't seem particularly relevant in any case, but if someone cares to create a spinoff list of something to incorporate the information I removed, fine. For attribution purposes, this is the edit I made. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:49, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Good decision. Will make seperate articles for the cabinets at a later point. Zwerg Nase (talk) 19:54, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Early Life, Military Service, "Jewish", and College Education
OK. There is a brief section on his military service. No mention if ever wounded, or ranks achieved. Should be if information is available. It does not directly state - but is inferred some college attendance occurred before Military service- should add some specifics. How much there is on talk page as to Jewish seems ridiculous to me. He served in the German Army. If there was a question on Jewish anchestory then, he would have been stuck as a factory worker, and not in the military with weapon access. Wfoj3 (talk)!
 * His grandfather was Jewish, a fact kept from the authorities, which allowed him to serve in the army. Otherwise, it would not have been the factory he'd been heading to... Zwerg Nase (talk) 16:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Germany has no real eqivalence to the American college. Schmidt made his Abitur in 1937 and served afterwards in the RAD and then the Wehrmacht. After the regular conscription time of 2 years, WW2 had already started. After the war, he could study directly at the University.--Beliar (talk) 16:23, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

British or American English?
Denfense/Defence still appears in both forms on this page. Could we please decide which English form should be used. As Schmidt was a European, I would suggest British English is a better choice.IsarSteve (talk) 08:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Schmidt's seat in the Bundestag
He obviously had one, so which one was it? Was he elected from a constituency or on a state list? Lockesdonkey (talk) 18:10, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at the German page: Schmidt was elected in 53 and 65 via state list. In 57 and 61 he won the constituency Hamburg VIII, in all other years he won the constituency Hamburg-Bergedorf. BR Ulrich Nillurcheier (talk) 20:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't speak German, so it would've been rather difficult for me to find that out. Would you be willing to provide the sources that say that so this information may be added to the page? I am also attempting to assemble a succession linkage of articles on Bundestag seats held by the Chancellor (since the establishment of the Federal Republic); for comparison see Sedgefield (UK Parliament constituency) (for an example of a former head of government seat) and Papineau (electoral district) (for an example of a present head of government seat. Thank you! Lockesdonkey (talk) 21:30, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see the German wiki entry references another German wiki entry which references [this].
 * None of this makes too much sense without a deeper understanding of the voting system.  As far as I can see, there is no idiot proof guide to the German electoral system on English language wikipedia.   Which is a pity.   If anyone has the necessary time and insights to spend the holiday creating one, that would be a seriously useful thing to do.   And thank you "Im Vorhaus" (or maybe Hoffnung/Hope).
 * (If anyone with a sufficient appetite for the screamingly ....um ... bizarre were moved to add a second idiot proof guide, to the "single list" voting system they operated in East Germany UNTIL 1990, that would be seriously interesting/useful too, though self-evidently that has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion on Helmut Schmidt.  Still, it's just possible that with a high profile entry such as this one, the request might get noticed by ... someone.)   Regards Charles01 (talk) 10:01, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * This archive seems to be a better source: http://webarchiv.bundestag.de/cgi/show.php?fileToLoad=627&id=12 I will add the info as soon as possible. Yes, the German voting system is a bit tricky Nillurcheier (talk) 17:10, 23 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I will also provide sources once I start/finish my workovers of Schmidt's and Kohl's articles in January. Also, it's "im Voraus", not "im Vorhaus" (which would be in the front house). Merry christmas! Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:26, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Place of birth
Helmut Schmidt was born in Hamburg in 1918. At the time of his birth, Germany's official name was the German Reich (commonly referred to as the Weimar Republic by posterity). Given the political upheaval and emergence of several 'German' polities (Kaiserreich, Weimar, Third Reich, East, West etc.) across the twentieth century, and in the interest of historical fact, accuracy, and avoiding confusion, it would be prudent to have an underlying link directing to the German Reich/Weimar Republic page on his place of birth. In other words, the Germany he died in was not constitutionally, territorially or politically the Germany he was born in.

Some have argued that this is wrong - that historical 'time periods' should not feature in this respect. However, as a riposte to their refusal to reach consensus, I point to the Wikipedia page for Adolf Hitler. This details his place of death as 'Nazi Germany', however, this was never the official name of Germany. In fact, during the Nazi period, Germany continued to use the same official name as the Weimar Republic, the 'German Reich'. There is, therefore, inconsistency across Wikipedia's articles.

As a point of comparison, the articles of numerous historical and contemporary personalities on Wikipedia detail their places of birth as states that are no longer in existence today. This, I believe, is right and historically accurate. It enriches the general information about the person and provides the reader with convenient historical context. 195.147.250.224 (talk) 18:11, 18 June 2017 (UTC)


 * This has been explained to you ad nauseam, for example on your talk page by Geraldo Perez, who wrote
 * "For most biographical articles and per conventions at WP:OVERLINKING, major geographical locations are left unlinked as most readers don't need the common country names defined in any way. People reading bio articles of normal living people will not be interested in an article describing an era of their country at the time of their birth. Linking to something not obviously related to the term linked is also discouraged per WP:EGG as the article that comes up when clicked will be a surprise and not be what is expected."
 * "Birthplace" is about geography, not about the historical era. Nobody was "born in the Weimar Republic"; they were born in Germany (the country) during the political era known unofficially as the Weimar Republic, much like a person can be born in the United Kingdom during the Premiership of Theresa May or born in France during the Fifth Republic. Germany the country is indeed very much in existence today and is the same country (both according to German constitutional law and international law) and cannot be compared to "states that are no longer in existence today." Political and constitutional changes don't mean that a country ceases to exist. For example, France has experienced numerous very significant changes in constitution and form of government since the French revolution and until the postwar era, but that doesn't mean that France the country from before the Fifth Republic no longer exists. --Tataral (talk) 18:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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Drafted for Wehrmacht service in 1937 ?
Schmidt was born in 1918. His class was called up later, but not in 1937. This year, the youngest draftees were born in 1916 (see: Reichsgesetzblatt, part I, p. 606: Anordnung über die Aushebung zur Erfüllung der aktiven Dienstpflicht im Jahr 1937 vom 29. Mai 1937). So, it seems that Schmidt has volunteered for Wehrmacht. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 14:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * 18-year-old were in fact not drafted before the war (in 1937). --129.187.244.19 (talk) 06:19, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:53, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Verteidigungsminister Helmut Schmidt.jpg

Nearly 4,000 words commented out
A huge chunk of this article has been commented out. The text is all in one block, under the heading "chancellorship".

This commented-out block is nearly 4,000 words long, so it is a substantial chunk of the article. The unhidden part is currently 7034 words, so basically one third of the article is commented out.

My burrowing found that some of it was commented-out in this 11 November 2015 edit by @Zwerg Nase with the edit summary whole section is still a mess, subheaders are horrible. Keep blocked out until major work on the section.

This is not a good situation. If there are problems with the section, they should be tagged or removed. But I can see no case for leaving he text in this limbo situation where it is not visible to readers, or to editors unless the o looking for it.

So I propose to uncomment these sections, and restore the text. I do this without having formed any view on the merits of the text, just a desire for the article to develop in the normal way by having the text visible.

Any objections? Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I see that the hidden text text has been uncommented in this edit by User:CheesedToMeetYou.  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I do not even remember having done this. Still think that section is not very good though... Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:34, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Similar to what suggested, I uncommented because I saw very little changes in the ~6 years the text was not visible and I believe visible text will lead to a higher chance of improvement. I changed the subtitles slightly in an attempt to improve them, though I have no opinion on whether the information/format should stay in the article, moved to this talk page for potential improvements, or otherwise changed/moved. CheesedToMeetYou (talk) 21:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Predecessor: I think we should list Brandt, not Scheel
I think Walter Scheel should not be mentioned there; he was Foreign secretary and only acting as Bundeskanzler, but never elected. But [https://www.bundestag.de/gg according to the Grundgesetz, Art. 63], the Bundeskanzler has to be elected by the Bundestag which Scheel was not. Accordingly, Schmidt is considered the 5th Bundeskanzler (see here on the website of the Bundestag and there is no portrait of Scheel in the Galerie der Bundeskanzler. Moreover, naming two predecessors is confusing, there can be only one. --Qcomp (talk) 20:28, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2023
On 13 October 1981, Schmidt was fitted with a cardiac pacemaker.

I suggest adding there: ''In August 2002 he suffered a heart attack and subsequently underwent bypass surgery. ''



I suggest a second edit for Honours and awards: Since November 2016 Hamburg Airport has been christened after Schmidt. Tolmount (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ using this citation. Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 22:49, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2023
 On 27 August 2002, he suffered a heart attack and subsequently underwent bypass surgery.

This sentence about him having the heart attack was added because of an edit request of mine. It originally just said In August 2002, it was changed afterwards to 27 August, which is incorrect. The linked article in Der Spiegel was published on the 27th, a Tuesday. But the article says that Schmidt suffered the heart attack past Saturday, ergo the 24th. If we're doing exact dates it was on the 24th. Tolmount (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅  Wandering  Morpheme   22:23, 29 October 2023 (UTC)