Talk:Helsingør

The Surgeon's Mate
Elsinore is mentioned in Patrick O'Brian's novel "The Surgeon's Mate." In the novel, book seven in the extensive Aubrey/Maturin series, the two protaganists comment on Elsinore castle as they drift past via a Royal Navy sloop. 24.130.167.132 01:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Please sign your comments. It's done by typing four tilde in a row. abelson 11:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

We might add a section called "In fiction", and include some major references to Elsinore in novels, plays, films etc. Hamlet would be an obvious first entry to that section. abelson 11:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I added the O'Brian note. And just tried to do the signature but this is my first time adding to Wilkipedia and I am pretty ignorant of the procedure. My initials are PS

Requested move (2007)

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

NO CONSENSUS to move, per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 10:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Elsinore → Helsingør — Let's call the place by its proper usual modern Danish spelling. Matter about other places called Elsinore can be cut-and-pasted back to Elsinore, which thereby would be changed from a redirect to a disambig. Anthony Appleyard 21:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in opposition to the move

 * 1) Oppose - this is the standard English name - see the port website for example. -- Beardo 08:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose - If we started this, we'd be naming the 'Rome' article 'Roma' and 'Armenia' to 'Hayastan'. InfernoXV 17:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move? (1)
If I had known earlier about the above survey, I would have supported the move. The only reference to the Elsinore that I have seen, was a comment in a guide book that Helsingør was 'possibly the inspiration for Shakespeare's Elsinore'. I am not convinced that Elsinore is the 'standard' english name for the city. Astronaut 09:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd have supported it as well. No reason why this name should continue to stick just because Shakespeare invented a fictional town with a similar sounding name. All his other "Danish" names are nonsense as well. Valentinian T / C 11:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * E.g. his 'Fortinbras' (supposed king of Norway) is French for "strong-arm" and nothing that a king of Norway would ever be called. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Nordic Council uses the name Elsinor: http://www.norden.org/en/news-and-events/news/new-oresund-bridge/ 83.145.204.207 (talk) 12:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The name "Elsinore" is used in the speakers on the Öresundståg. "Next stop: Copenhagen Central Station. This train continues to Elsinore" or something similar. As far as I know, the message is only in English when København H is the next station: otherwise, it is either only in Danish or only in Swedish. (83.250.236.39 (talk) 09:18, 2 March 2011 (UTC))

Elsinore vs Helsingør
Yes, and because of that the Danish name has never caught on. It is most famous for Hamlet, and is referred to as Elsinore in that play.
 * I would like to argue that "Elsinore" is the english name of this town. Due to it's famous castle, Kronborg, and the former Øresund-payment. (All ships that passed through the most narrow part of Øresund had to pay a kind of tax to the danish crown for several hundereds of years before Shakespeare wrote "Hamlet". This tax was to be payed in this town, on the Sealand side of Øresund.) Due to these facts I find it established that the town had different names in different languages. Sheakspeare knew this when he wrote "Hamlet". I hereby do suggest a change of the name of this article to Elsinore which is it's english name. "Copenhagen" is not redirected to "København", the danish name of it's capital. So why shall we differ in this article ? 83.249.41.242 (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have reverted an undiscussed move to Elsinore. Lets discuss this properly. The difference from Copenhagen/København is that København city has been widely known of for centuries and long-used foreign forms develop and stay in use. Helsingør is rarely in the news and of little concern usually, and 'Elsinore' is known of only in one play by one playwright. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:50, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * '''Elsinore and change Helsingør to Elsinore in all other articles"'

http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Elsinore%2CHelsingor%2CHelsingør&year_start=1800&year_end=2012&corpus=0&smoothing=3

This Ngram shows that Elsinore is by far the most common, Helsingor is rarely used and Helsingør is almost nonexistent. OttomanJackson (talk) 22:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

An earlier attempt to move it from Elsinore to Helsingør also failed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OttomanJackson (talk • contribs) 22:57, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


 * In the old attempt much is based on what some people thinks. The basic question here is

What is this town known as  in English ?. This is a general matter about the English language. Should we use local names before English ones ? This comes naturally down to how established an English name is, but deals with all types of geographical issues. IF this town mainly is known as "Elsinore" in English, then we are obliged to use "Elsinore". For the inhabitants of the town, they ought to see it as a (positive) recognition, their town is well-known or famous. But it's NOT up to local residents do make decitions about an other language. I think some non-native English speakers believes this Wikipedia to be some kind of "World Wide" Wikipedia in every possible sence. I would urge all such people to think again. And there is indeed a Danish Wikipedia, which is quite good on Danish topics. Boeing720 (talk) 17:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Move? (2)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 09:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Helsingør → Elsinore –
 * This page has been back and forth between these two spellings recently. Let's discuss this properly. The difference from Copenhagen/København is that København city has been widely known of for centuries and long-used foreign forms develop and stay in use. Helsingør is rarely in the news and of little concern usually, and 'Elsinore' is known of only in one play by one playwright. Newspaper uses of 'Elsinore' for the modern town are journalese; I get the impression that good books and serious articles and maps call it Helsingør nowadays. Google search just now showed about 8,480,000 results for Helsingor OR Helsingør, and about 15,000,000 results for Elsinore; but most of the Elsinore results are for other places called Elsinore, including many for Lake Elsinore in California. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:30, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment shouldn't this be moved back to Elsinore, since that is the result of the previous requested move in 2007, which has never been overridden by a new consensus discussion, before this discussion is even opened? 70.24.251.208 (talk) 11:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree and hope that it is considered when closing this. —  AjaxSmack   22:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Disambiguate Elsinore per AnthonyAppleyard's multiple uses. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 *  Best leave as is  [strike through, less sure] - seriously what else can be done, we can't reverse the lede:
 * - Helsingør, often known in English-speaking countries by Shakespeare's spelling Elsinore
 * - Elsinore, often known in English-speaking countries by the modern name Helsingør (!)
 * In ictu oculi (talk) 11:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This is an easy one. Elsinore, Danish Helsingør,.... Kauffner (talk) 06:06, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The disambig page is Elsinore (disambiguation). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * My copy of the Times Atlas of the World (which may be taken as authoritative) calls the place merely Helsingør. Looking up Elsinore in its end index shows "Elsinore see Helsingør" and 2 places in the USA. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * My copy uses Dimashq, Sŏul and Dubayy instead of Damascus, Seoul, and Dubai. Should Wikipedia do the same?  Times is an authoritative atlas but encyclopedias have different styles than atlases and Wikipedia uses English.  —  AjaxSmack   22:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Would tend to agree with AjaxSmack on this point, atlases are often influenced by road maps and don't follow the style of prose texts. Doesn't mean that Elsinore is more common than the town if the castle and port are taken out of search results, but maybe they shouldn't be taken out "consistent with related articles" In ictu oculi (talk) 00:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep at Helsingør with a hatnote to Elsinore (disambiguation) and mention of Shakespeare's spelling. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:05, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep at Elsinore per WP:UE (use English) even though I was not convinced until I saw widespread local English usage of "Elsinore". Note that the official tourism website, the Port of Elsinore, and the Kronborg castle website all use "Elsinore".  —  AjaxSmack   22:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Was surprised by the port being "Port of Elsinore", the Castle of Elsinore and tourism site I can understand, there's a bit of Hamlet-inspired tourist income there. Despite that Lonely Planet, Rough Guide, etc etc go with Helsingor. I looked at GB for the port and there are various treaties etc around 1835, and then in Competition and Regulation in Shipping and Shipping Related IndustriesAntapassis, Rosaeg, Athanassiou - 2009 p147 "In 1992 the Commission received a complaint by the Danish shipping line, Mercandia, against the Danish Ministry for Transport concerning the refusal to grant access to the port of Elsinore [Helsingør, (DK)]." which suggests that in shipping usage the 1830s usage has stuck. All kinds of official documents do describe the port as Port of Elsinore. On the other hand, taking these out reduces the uses of Elsinore for the modern town. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:13, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep at Helsingør, oppose move to Elsinore (though with hatnote saying Elsinore redirects here). Elsinore seems to be an outdated form (like "Leghorn" for Livorno or "Trebizond" for Trabzon) that in this particular case would be used mostly in contexts of tourism promotion. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 00:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Columbia, Britannica, and Jyllands-Posten. Googling suggests that Elsinore (band) and Lake Elsinore are the topics most readers are seeking, not the Danish city. Kauffner (talk) 06:06, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, sadly - keep at Helsingør, apologies for vacillation and the piecemeal way of responding to this, foreced to question initial understanding after seeing AjaxSmack's evidence on the port. But, it seems like the port is stuck in time GBooks suggests that "Port of Elsinore [Corporation]" having a legal name in English is locked into all kinds of maritime agreements and contracts. When it comes to the town, it's WWII histories, EU texts, guidebooks like Frommers, and GBooks ["elsinore is" denmark -shakespeare -hamlet] produces almost nothing prior to 1900. The town has moved from the Copenhagen set into the Leghorn set as P. T. Aufrette notes. This isn't a crystal ball thing, the change, sadly in some respects, happened after WWII. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Kauffner and In ictu oculi. Deor (talk) 05:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Helsingør is the name which is known today. "Elsinore" might be a(n) historical name but it's far less popular. I personally hadn't even heard of "Elsinore" even though I know where Helsingør is. J I P  &#124; Talk 19:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I think we're moving towards using local place names. Elsinore carries associations of the play rather than an actual modern Danish town.  Interestingly, this trend may not be confined to English, see the Spanish wikipedia entry for Canterbury. PatGallacher (talk) 11:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Same reasons as JIP and others.  The place is known in English as Helsingør except when making reference to Shakespeare.  As such the name Elsinore belongs with Leghorn and suchlike.  Sussexonian (talk) 08:06, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Coordinates
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—Nicci2 (talk) 23:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The coordinates in the article appear to be correct, and you haven't explained in what way you think they're erroneous. If you think there is an error, please give a clear explanation of how they are wrong or how they should be changed. Deor (talk) 13:22, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:51, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
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