Talk:Hemshin people/Archive 2

Edit war
Omer asked me to help you find a solution to the editorial conflict over this page. To my shame I am really ignorant in the history of Hemshins. It is good since I do not have my own biad there, but it also bad as you would have to explain to me the background facts that might be pretty obvious to elsebody. You can ask me to get lost and find another mediator if you feel like this.

Am I right that the main point of the conflict is whether in the lead we can state in the lead as a fact that Hameshins is a diverse group of people (like Dagestani, I presume) rather than a single ethnic group (as e.g. Chechens)?

If so does Omer's sources support the assertion? Are there any reliable sources that are of different opinion? Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Alex, thank you very much for your prompt response.
 * Let me start off by saying that the major problem we have here on this page is that we are unable to have discussion.  A quick glance at the talk page, at least under the title “editing  the lead section”  will  give you hints  about what I exactly mean. I do, however, believe that once we start discussing we can actually reach an agreement. I see your presence here as a nice opportunity.


 * The "Hemshinli" are rather unique in the sense that there does not seem to be any other group of people who have similar characteristics. Therefore I do not think that Dagestani or Chechens are appropriate examples. Herebelow I try to give an “informal” introduction to this rather interesting group of peoples, for you to get a feeling about what this article is all about.  All what I say below is sourced by the references of the article.


 * Hemshin is a small region in northeast of Turkey, mountanious, remote and still not very easily accessible. In the daily life and language “ Hemshin-li” means simply "from Hemshin" and this form of designation is used in tens of thousands of occasions in Turkey in relation with towns, villages, regions and even city districts  (say istanbul-lu etc) (like newyork-er). The people who still have ongoing ties to Hemshin form the main group of Hemshinli. They are Turkish speaking, muslim and  have no selfunderstanding of being a specific ethnicity.


 * Our case becomes complicated because in addition to the "Hemshin-li" in this sense, there are two other sets of people who call themselves also  Hemshin-li (or variants of this word in different languages) although they have no ongoing link to Hemshin and even no memory of any connection thereto in their family history…They obviously are the descendants of people who at some point(s) in history have migrated from Hemshin. The Hopa- Hemshinli are the ones  located  in several villages in Hopa,  about 50 km  east  of Hemshin (still in Turkey ). They are muslims as well but speak in addition to Turkish a language which is recently found to be a archaic form of Armenian influenced by Turkish and "Laz". The third group lives beyond Turkish boundaries in the Caucasus and are of Christian faith..they speak also a language similar to the language of Hopa Hemshinli.


 * Those groups are becoming aware of each others existence only recently and through their intellectuals…


 * It is difficult when the cultural make up and histories of these peoples and the common link (being from hemshin) are tried to be analyzed. As expressed by the researchers in the field, the problem is that the history of  Hemshin region and the people who throughout the history had been its residents, are full of unknowns….There are a number of theories related to many elements of the  analysis. Starting from the name Hemshin…over whether Hemşin-li means really only the standart "new  york-er" thing or whether it is designation of a ethnicity…if so what ethnicity, who migrated to Hemshin throughout the history and who migrated from it and why and how, etc.  Actually a  late  2007 book published with the name "The Hemshin" (basically  a compilation of the inputs of various authors on various aspects of the Hemshinli) introduces itself as "groundbreaking" and the "first scholarly work" over the "enigmatic" Hemshinli.


 * In the wikipedia article over Hemshinli my contributions so far try to reflect the present status of the research related to the facts of the history and present situation  (my contributions are limited to the sections "history" and "groups" in addition to "lead"). You can see there some more details regarding the history of the Hemshinli. Please note that the entry is still under development, and there are parts that still needs to be fixed as well as additional information that may need to be inserted. Naturally the lead section will need to be developed in accordance with the development of the article.Omer182 (talk) 11:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Alex, thanks for your interest

The main point of the conflict is not that "diverse group of people" point. It is that Omer182 has taken "ownership" of this article in order to POV war his opinion – an opinion that is not supported by any sources. He has, through a process of reverting or removing anything that he has not personally written and by actively distorting sources and altering text written by other editors, created an article that is not only extremely misleading but is almost unreadable.

Omer182's edits appear to have the end goal of muddying the waters mostly in order to create the impression that the Hemshini are not Armenian in origin, and that claims of their Armenian and Christian origin are disputed and unproven.

He initially went about this by trying to POV fork the article. He argued on this page for removing two of the three recognized Hemshinli groups from the article and moving them to separate entries: the Christian Armenian-speaking "northern Hemshinli" and the Muslim Armenian-speaking eastern or "Hopa Hemshinli". This was presumably because the Armenian origin of those two groups would be obvious to everyone. That initial attempt failed, and he has subsequently been engaged in rewriting the article to suit his POV and editing out any other editors' contributions. Any editor adding new material will find, often within hours, that Omer182 has reverted the article to a previous version, that version invariably being Omer182's version. Omer182 has persistently removed fully referenced material from the article. He does not discuss beforehand his edits (most of which are reverts) to remove referenced material, and he does not justify their removal when asked. On a number of occasions he has said that he will, quote, "consider the additional information suggested" after removing the material from the actual article - an example of him behaving as if he owned the article.

The methodology of Omer182's edits is to discredit or marginalise mainstream academic opinions about the Hemshin peoples. He does this by using four primary methods.

Method 1 - He will use weasel-words in his text

Omer182's edits makes extensive use of known weasel words such as "is claimed", "there are views", "it is generally accepted", "recent studies claim", "some deduce", etc. He will characterize an accepted fact as one that is merely "claimed". In some cases he is using them to raise a false question about a statement's truth – for example, after stating that some Turkish historians say the Hemshinli are ethnically Turkish he writes "many other historians deduce that those were Armenians", when actually all sources, except for a few extremist Turkish ones that can be dismissed as propaganda, agree they were Armenians. His content is full of the passive voice, making the whole article appear deliberately vague and imprecise. If you check back to this edit, [], I pointed out a lot of the weasel words – that resulted in Omer having to rewrite a lot of his material, and resort to method 4 for even more in his edits.

Method 2 - He will exclude all material that strongly disagrees with his POV. For example, in one of his earlier edits [], about the term "Hamshen" he claimed in the articles lead section that "in historical documents this term is absent". In the talk page I pointed out his error, explaining that Hamshen, or variants of it, actually is the name used in the oldest historical documents. I then cited an account by Purchas from 1614 as an example, and later added a quote from it into the article. Omer182 then removed that cited quote without explanation. After I reinserted it again, he again removed it without explanation, then, several weeks later, he reinserted a garbled and almost unreadable (see his method 4) passage that included a messed-up version of the same quote. Here are the two versions, the first is easily the most encyclopaedic; concise, to the point, and giving a reason for its presence in the article.

Method 3 - He will deliberately falsify or cherry-pick source material in order to manipulate the source to suit his POV. For example, in the current edit he writes "Hemşince and Armenian are generally mutually not intelligeble" citing Simonian’s "The Hemshin", p257. That wording would give a reader the impression that Armenian and Hemşince are not related. However, in the actual source, the sentence that precedes the one he quotes states Hemşince "is generally treated as a dialect of western Armenian", and the actual sentence that contains the words "generally not mutually intelligeble" (btw, note Omer's moving of the word "not") ends by saying that Hemşince is "one of the most divergent and interesting varieties of Armenian". As another example, for his lead section statement "A recent proposal is to use the word Hemshin itself to designate these peoples" in this edit [] he again provided as a reference the book "The Hemshin". Actually the book makes no such claim and the reference was taken from content I had added and that Omer182 had quickly deleted. Method 4 - He uses sentence stuffing: making accepted facts appear vague or uncertain by disguising them within overly convoluted and unreadable sentences. This last method is now his most widely used one. Here are examples:

BTW,regarding Omer's last sentence in the above paragraph. That Kırzıoğlu person is described as a "pseudo-historian" by R. Bennighaus, and by W. Feurstein as "never before has a single person in Turkey falsified history so massively"!

Meowy 23:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks you both for the long elaborate entries I certainly now more about Hameshins than before. I think disputes about the editorial behavior do not belong to article talk pages. Many edits of Omer you have mentioned do not look problematic to me. Maybe a user RFC is a correct forum for such disputes. I was under impression that we have one or many editorial disputes over the article. Maybe we could go one by one starting from the lead section? Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please say which of the edits I have cited you consider unproblematic and explain why they are unproblematic to you. It is not possible to dispute constructively (in the normal Wikipedia meaning of the word) anything with Omer, he simply ignores and reverts, ignores and reverts. Meowy 02:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it would be best to stick with the original versions and work from there. Kırzıoğlu's assumption shouldn't even be mentioned in the article. By the way, what's his full name? Is he a historian or what? It isn't mentioned.
 * Alex, what do you mean by not problematic? Just compare the originals to his revisions. They aren't very well written, make use of weasel words, and cut out bits for no reason. Hakob (talk) 07:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's Fahrettin Kırzıoğlu. Born in Kars in 1917, and was (I think) heavily influenced by the history of the place and (also I think) tried to make that interest acceptable by Turkifying it where possible. He was a teacher, wrote stuff on Kars and Ani, and became, late in life, a professor at Erzurum University. I wasn't aware of his work regarding the Hemshinli until I read the Simonian book. He was an historian, of sorts, an old-school Turkish-style one. Alas, he died a couple of years ago, kind of regret never making a point of meeting him. Last year the GHF demolished (along with a lot of other things) the little street in the old part of Kars that was named after him (was he born there?). Meowy 02:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Whether Omer's edits are problematic or not should be decided by the community or a consensus, I certainly find them problematic and until the concerns raised by Meowy are addressed than the long standing version should remain, that was stable for months prior to Omer's unilateral and controversial changes.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 00:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have just undid the undiscussed wholesale edits that was just implemented on 00:13, 4 July 2008, by Eupator   who apperaed for the first on this page through this action.Omer182 (talk) 12:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I want to briefly comment on the above discussions:
 * I understand Alex's point that the focus here should be on the article from now on. I will thus not answer the allegations about my edits raised by Meowy, as doing so would take too much space here and would probably not serve the main purpose of discussing the article. However, for the record, I want to strongly state that a significant portion of his claims are based on his assumptions about my intents and consequent misunderstanding (or distortion?) and  mispresentation  of my edits . In case future discussions should touch those  allegations,  I reserve my right to come back and expose those distortions and mispresentations.
 * A suggestion has been raised proposing that we go back to the original version and start from there again. In our case the "original" version would be the one dated June 8 (11:47), as it is a version which was gradually built over several months, section by section and in a step by step manner, following a "first propose then implement" procedure, as encouraged by Wikipedia. As I recall, the version dated 8 june 2008 includes the lead section of version dated 21 nov 07, the history section  of version  dated 14 jan 08 and the groups section of versiton  dated 13 April 08. In the period from their inclusion  to 8 june 08 no edits were made on those sections except for unargumented, undiscussed wholesale revert attacks on the entire article. After this date Meowy's wholesale edits took place where entire passages  were replaced overnight (the "originals" as presented in the left hand column in Meowy's argument hereabove are thus not the originals but are actually  those which were produced by Meowy during this procedure). Meowy's actions and my own corresponding edits  have yielded the version of 22 June 2008 (22:06) which is quite different from the "original" 8 june version in length, level of detail, number of inline citations etc.
 * Alex, hoping that we may create a meaningful discussion athmosphere with your help, I want to raise a question regarding your suggestion that we start with the lead section. To my understanding the lead section is supposed to provide a summary of the entry, highlighting the important points. In this regard, would it not be more useful to first consider the presently most important  two sections, namely the history and the groups sections, and see whether we have a disagreement there except for style questions . I am ofcourse, ok with starting with the lead section if that  seems more appropriate to do so.Omer182 (talk) 09:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A summary translation of the above: "Omer says he will revert undiscussed edits done by others, Omer says he will not answer questions about his own edits, Omer says that every editor must have Omer's prior approval before any material is added into the article, Omer requires that his own contributions already in the article must always remain untouched by other editors because only Omer is permitted to change them". Meowy 17:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, Omer's assertion that the materials I called in the above tables "original versions" are not original versions is incorrect. There was no mention of the Hetu'm of Corycos/Purchas account in the article until I added that material. That material was then removed without discussion by Omer, removed by him again when I reinserted it, then it eventually reappeared as the garbled "Omer182's rewritten version". Same for the Shapu Amatuni migration / prince Hamam material - that material was not there until I put it there, it was repeatedly removed by Omer, then after a while it reappeared as the garbled "Omer182's rewritten version". Omer never bothered explaining his repeated removal of all that referenced material, nor did he ever bother discussing beforehand his rewritten versions. Meowy 17:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's examine the first half of the current lead section, and what is wrong with it. Meowy 19:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree that Omer is showing signs of WP:OWN. Omer as you can see many of us are willing to listen and consider your changes, but pushing them thru edit warring is not gonna get you anywhere. Please discuss the changes, get a consensus and then make changes. At the present you announce that your going to drastically change half of the article and proceed in changing it right away. Those type of changes are almost always going to get reverted and the last one wasn't an exception. VartanM (talk) 08:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Vartan
 * If you had the chance to read thru the discussion which you have archived on 5 july you would have seen that  IT IS NOT ME who makes wholesale reverts and changes without discussion. You have reverted to a version created by user who had made a wholesale edit without any discussion. I have to revert it . I hope you now see the situation and  that you are sincere in your statements and so help me in preventing such attacks on the article…especially as there is a possibility of a meaningful discussion on the agenda.


 * BTW, the link for the archive you have formed points to Talk:Shusha, can you fix it? Omer182 (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Alex, this is a quick update on the discussion:


 * I was (and still am) in the hope of having a meaningful discussion. However a new user (Eupator) has implemented a wholesale edit with no discussion what so ever, followed by my revert. Vartan then reverted back to Eupator's version probably thinking that it was the standing version, which forces me to implement a revert as well. It seems we are heading towards further confusion instead of a disciplined discussion.
 * I have raised a question regarding the discussion, namely would it be better to start with the history section as opposed to the lead section.


 * Meowy has recently set up comparison tables for his and my versions of the lead section. To make sure that we can keep a disciplined discussion, I will wait for your response regarding the above question. If you see fit to go ahead with the lead and start it with Meowy's comparison idea, I will comment on his remarks. Omer182 (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no version. I haven't made a single edit. I just reverted your edits to a version before you made these changes which reuslted in this mess, should be very clear.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 00:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please indicate with version (date and time) you are reverting back to (It is not clear to me). What is clear is that you are undermining several months of edits and discussions (even the dispute tag placed in October 2007  is removed) by acting like that. So please understand that you are the one creating the "mess" and please stop doing so.Omer182 (talk) 17:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Omer - it is your response to my many points that is awaited. I expect you to respond here to the points I have made regarding the problems with the current lead section, addressing each of the concerns I have raised in the "what is wrong with it" section of the above table, as well as saying what (if anything) you think is wrong with my alternative version. I've added a table cell for your response (look for the "Please write your comments below here, Omer" message in the table code) or you can reply as a normal posting. BTW, I fixed the archive link. Meowy 14:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As a response from Alex is still missing, I have entered my comments to Meowy's criticism of my version in the related table. For presentation purposes I have numbered his/her statements and answered on the column dedicated for my response using corresponding numbers. Omer182 (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have now filled in the table related to what is wrong with Meowy's version. For tractability purposes, I have aligned parts of the version with my corresponding concerns. Omer182 (talk) 17:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And I have responded to your comment's. 3rd-party comments are also needed. Meowy 23:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

New proposal for lead section
Meowy and I  have informed each other about our opinions. Meowy’s final entries give me the impression that in some points we are simply speaking past each other and in some other points we do indeed have different opinions/approaches. Nevertheless we now at least  know  more  about each other’s position. In light of what I have observed, I think that in some points we may actually reach a consensus. Therefore I would like to refrain from furthering this cycle of detailed  responses  and rather try  to  propose  a   modified wording which may provide ,at least in some points,    consensus: I will propose the modifications taking the current version as the basis,  taking the criticism  to it in consideration and  also keeping  an eye on Meowy’s “praises” on his/her  version. First I wish to offer explanations  regarding the modifications envisioned, and then  propose the complete  alternative   text right after the explanations:

“ It takes 86 words to introducing  the  location of Hemshin”  issue:

The sentence “Hemshin is located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region” could be shifted to the top and be integrated into the first sentence.

“ The lead is too lengthy ” issue:

Designation of the peoples who have two mother tounges, and are referred to by others with several additional designations, in 4 different alphabets does take some space. ( BTW we have neglected one of the main alphabets; namely the arabic letters used in Ottoman era and I don’t propose at this time to add that as well).

I believe the difference in nature of those designations (please refer to my more detailed elaborations in the above table regarding these differences) is important and I would like to point this out in the lead section. I do not believe it is essential to include the Khemshils and Russian and Laz but do not necessariliy object to their inclusion and keep them in the text as I feel this is  Meowy’s preference.

Having the above in mind, maybe  Meowy can come  up with a shorter formulation.

“The Hemshin” issue:

Upon Meowy’s indication, I now see  that the term “the Hemshin” is used in yet another publication: “Trekking in Turkey” on page 126, ”...is home to the Hemshin, a turkish speaking tribe...”.

Therefore I do accept now that the 2007 book “The Hemshin” is not the only case where this term comes up. I still believe that this term is used only in publications and also that  it is used only  in limited occasions. Therefore this term should not be mingled with names like Hemshinli/ Homshentsi.If Meowy thinks that this term must be mentioned in the lead section but he/she  also agrees to my wish to differenciate it; the following proposal may be considered:

“The term “The Hemshin” is used also in some publications to refer to Hemshinli (hereto inline citations “The Hemshin” and “Trekking in Turkey”)”.

Armenian/christian issue…and “Migration from Osakan”:

I agree with the reasoning of Meowy. His/her reformulation is also acceptable with very slight changes as follows: “Most sources agree that prior to Ottoman era majority of the residents of Hemshin were Christian and members of the Armenian Apostolic Church.”. I also agree to locate this statement earlier in the text. I further agree to  take out the migration from Osakan out of the article.

Ethnicity issue:

I see we have an ongoing difference there.I have on my part no objection to delete my sentence at the end of the lead section related to “ethnicity” if that could help finding an agreement. With this assumption, I have deleted that sentence in the proposed version.

Ottoman era /islamicization/migratons issues:

I see that my last proposal  does not fully satisfy Meowy but feel that at least part of his/her concerns are adressed. I will stick to that for the time being. This point obviously needs more discussion which we can have right after clearing the other points.

Proposal:

Having the above in mind my proposal for the lead section is as follows: (The statements in bold italics are those that I would be indifferent between inclusion and exclusion from the section)

The Hemshin Peoples are a number of diverse groups of people who in the past history or present have been affiliated with the Hemşin area [2][3][4] which is located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region. They are called (and call themselves) as Hemshinli (Turkish: Hemşinli), Hamshenis, Homshentsi (Armenian: Համշենի) meaning resident of Hemshin (historically Hamshen) in the relevant language. [5] . 'Further designations are Khemshils, (Russian: Амшенцы; Laz: Sumexi (სუმეხი)). [6] The term “The Hemshin” is used also in some publications to refer to Hemshinli (hereto in line citations “The Hemshin” and “Trekking in Turkey”)' In 15th century, Hemshin was annexed by the Ottoman Empire. During the Ottoman period, two most important developments are migrations and Islamization. ”[8] Most sources agree that prior to Ottoman era majority of the residents of Hemshin were Christian and members of the Armenian Apostolic Church. The details and the accompanying circumstances for the migrations and the Islamization process during the Ottoman era are not clearly known and documented. [13]

As a result of those developments, distinctive communities with the same generic name have also appeared in the vicinity of Hopa, Turkey as well as in the Caucasus. Those three communities are almost oblivious to one another's existence.[9] The Hemshinli of Hemshin proper (also designated occasionally as western Hemshinli in publications) are Turkish-speaking Sunni Muslims who mostly live in the counties (ilçe) of Çamlihemşin and Hemşin in Turkey's Rize Province. The Hopa Hemshinli (also designated occasionally as eastern Hemshinli in publications) are Sunni Muslims and mostly live in the Hopa and Borçka counties of Turkey's Artvin Province. In addition to Turkish, they speak a dialect of western Armenian they call "Homshetsma" or "Hemşince" in Turkish.[10] Homshentsik (also designated occasionally as Northern Homshentsik in publications) are Christians who live in Abkhazia and in Russia's Krasnodar Krai. They speak Homshetsma as well [11]. There are also some Muslim Hemshinli living in Georgia and Krasnodar[citation needed] and some Hemshinli elements amongst the Meskhetian Turks. [12] Omer182 (talk) 23:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I haven't yet had the time to make a properly considered reply to the above. Meowy 01:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hemshin in Turkey
Just to give you a little background, I am a Turkish American whose family comes from Hemsin proper, specifically from the village of Tecina/Akyamac and go back their often, given my grandmother still lives there and the fact that my parents made every effort to ensure we had strong ties to our roots and where they grew up.

I do prescribe to the fact the Hemsinli population is a mix of the original ethnic Armenians that lived there and the Turks who migrated to the area.

I do however strongly object to the following language:

"The Kemalist "Turkey for the Turks" ideology, writes Neal Ascherson, "offered no security for minorities" with "the tiny Hemşinli group having especially compelling reasons to keep its head down" because "its members are the descendants of Armenians". [54] In order to avoid accusations of "separatism" the Hemshinli are discreet and unprovocative about their own identity, taking a full but unobtrusive part in Turkish society."

The Hemsinli people are extremely patriotic. And when I mean patriotic, I mean patriotic of their Turkish nationality and heritage. They consider their Turkish identity as a source of pride. When they send their sons off to to do their army service, the celebrate this in a huge way because their sons are performing the same duties they had, and their grandfathers had, and so on. If any of the people living in our villages were to read this, they would be deeply offended. Very clearly this language was written by a scholar with their own view of events, but it unfair to attribute these feeling of ill-will upon the Hemsinli people, especially since it couldn't be farther from the truth. I would delete this paragraph in its entirity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.110.238.152 (talk) 13:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The quote is from a credible and serious source, it can't be removed just because you or some vested-interest group doesn't like what it says. And the fate of the film-maker that is mentioned in the article and who did not "keep his head down" shows the quote has truth. The point the quote is making is not what the Hemshinli think of being Turkish, or how "Turkish" their self-identity is, it is about how the Turkish state would behave towards the Hemshinli if their distinct ethnic identity was expressed more strongly.
 * Although it is, unfortunately, becoming increasingly common for them to do so, academics should not pander to the beliefs, or self-interests, or dilusions, of specfic ethnic, political, or religious groups. Neither should Wikipedia articles - to do otherwise could see, for example, the page on George Bush edited to remove anything the Republican Party doesn't hold to be true, or the page on Hilter rewritten because neo-Nazis might be offended by its content, and so on for countless articles. Meowy 01:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * the ip number user is absolutey right that the negative propaganda about Turkey should be removed.ı don't see any credible argument put forward by meowy.Wikipedia is not the place for propaganda wars. That paragraph will be removed.Cihsai (talk) 21:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Cihsai, I advise you to change your editing attitudes, they are not in sympathy with accepted behaviour on Wikipedia. Meowy 15:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverted to prior version before Omer's edits, he was unable to reach a consensus. VartanM (talk) 03:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Vartan,
 * I am sure you know more about the development of this entry than your unjustified move suggests.
 * History of the article as well as the history of the talk page, including the section which you have archieved, show clearly that my edits are in line with the wikipedia policies.
 * If you could not understand the development, tell me  so that I can give you, once again,  a summary of the development.
 * For the record, a brief description of  where we stand  is as follows:
 * lead section: user meowy raised some concerns on the current version and a detailed discussion is taking place..I have proposed a new wording which may meet both our approvals...a response from meowy is yet to come (See Meowy’s response to my proposal on 18 July 2008).
 * history and groups sections:  The current versions  are the result of a development through which objections regarding use of weasel words and lack of inline citations were adressed... specific  arguments against the current versions or meaningful proposals for further development are as of today not put forward.
 * Those three sections are the ones I have dealt with since I started contributing.
 * If you have anything to contribute, do so in proper manner. Do not attempt to nullify months of editing and discussion with artificial pretexts.
 * BTW, note that this section of the discussion page is devoted (by another user) to the section of the article about the “ Hemshin in Turkey”  (which I had not yet touched, but will probably start contributing to the discussion). By putting your comments related to my earlier  edits  in this part of the talk page, you have also actually disrupted the ongoing discussion related to this section. Note that this amounts to “messing up” of the talk page.Omer182 (talk) 22:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Once again, not one user supports the version of the article you created. You do not own the article and have not established consensus for any of the controversial changes you added without receiving support. I reverted yet again to a version free of your modifications. Instead of contnuing edit warring with multiple users, I suggested before that you initiate an RFC to see if anyone within the wiki community supports your version. See: Requests for comment--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 23:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Eupator,
 * This is the third time you have engaged in such a wholesale revert, which takes the entry back to a much earlier version (to a version prior to 9 October 2007). It is interesting that you have not written a single word so far in the talk page related to the content of the entry.


 * As you know, the basic principles of Wikipedia are to engage in good-faith discussions before major edits and presenting information based on reliable sources. This is the place for discussion. Given that you are eager to revert the article to a much earlier version, removing the fully referenced lead, history and groups sections, I invite you to join the discussion by answering the below:


 * 1- What exactly do you find incorrect related to the lead section? Do you have anything to add in addition to what Meowy has raised in our discussion? What do you think of the proposal I have raised in response to feedback from Meowy?


 * 2- What exactly do you find incorrect related to the (fully referenced) history section you have removed. Be specific! Tell the contributors which statements need to be modified (and why)?


 * 3-Same questions for the groups section…
 * Note that if you deny answering these questions in reasonable manner, it either means that you try to avoid discussion, or that you simply are not interested in the subject and do not have sufficient knowledge to share. In either case refrain from blind reverts.Omer182 (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Because I am travelling, I will probably not be able to contribute anything more to this discussion for about a month. Sorry. Meowy 19:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Namsos, please read my entries above adressed to Vartan (3 August 2008) and Eupator (4 August 2008).Omer182 (talk) 08:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Peoples!
Are the Hemshin PeopleS? I think they are ethnic group and the article's nane have to be changed! Jingby (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The definition of what is an ethnic group is debatable - and there are several distinct subgroups amongst the Hemshinli which have their own self-defining name, so 'peoples' is an acurate term I think. 'Hemshin' has been discussed - I think it is suitable because it is language neutral - used by none of the sub-groups, but used in academic literature. Meowy 17:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Mediation Request
I have just filed a mediation request for this entry which you can reach here. Please note that the involved parties need to approve within 7 days if they want to pursue this path. Omer182 (talk) 15:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Image nominated for deletion
No notice was placed here that has been nominated for deletion. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  22:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

About the Protect
Khoikhoi,

I want to clarify some issues regarding the development of the Hemshin Peoples article, which you have recently placed under full protection.

Before going into the details, let me first state that I find it unfourtunate  that you have actually protected the version which was implemented by means of unjustified wholesale reverts (taking  the entry back to its version almost a year ago, with no discussions or justifications), rather than the version which was actually developed through a completely Wikipedia edit policies complient process (as I detail below). Such a protection punishes edit policies encouraged by wikipedia while rewarding those actually discouraged by it.

Here is a brief overview of the development phases of this entry in the last year (All of the below will be verified if one has a brief look at the talk page and its archive).


 * Before engaging in any edits I stated my opinion that there is a need for major revision on 11 August 2007 (almost a year ago!).  Please see the section "Major Revision Proposed" on the archieve for the talk page.  My reason for proposing revision was my opinion that the entry did not stand NPOV as it was.  After waiting for app. 20 days, with no response from the contributors, I put a reminder that I was waiting  for a response on 2 September 2007. Eventually, with no confrontation and actually some vague agreement on my  proposal, I put a dispute tag (9 October 2007). Then, I started the procedure for section by section editing  which comprised of first posting the proposal for the edits regarding the relevant section and waiting  for  discussion for a reasonable amount of time. My first proposal was posted on 28 October 2007 in the discussion page. All my edits have been implemented following the procedure outlined above.


 * I have edited three sections of the article (lead section, history section and groups sections) in this manner.


 * After a brief period of blind revert attacks (which were also exposed to admin Alex Bakharev), detailed discussions started to take place  between me and  user Meowy on 10 June 2008. During these discussions, I have also tried to involve admin Alex Bakharevi hoping that we can have a disciplined and productive discussion with his presence. Even though he has dissappeared after a brief involment, a (more or less meaningful) discussion has started to take shape and  it is an ongoing one to this day…Meowy’s  temporal absence has temporarily halted the discussions, for  the time being.


 * The current state of the discussion can be summarized as follows (Recall that my edits are confined to lead, history and groups sections):
 * 1)Meowy has placed a number of fact tags and weasel word warnings in the history and groups sections. To satisfy his/her request, I have implemented various content and wording changes in these sections and posted a fully referenced text. I feel that Meowy is still not comforable with the text, never the less he/she has not raised any specific objections to the history and groups sections.


 * 2) Our discussion with Meowy then focused on the lead section more recently (starting on 4 July 2008), whereby we provided detailed feedback about each others versions for it (See table comparisons on talk page)


 * 3) I have then raised a proposal on the talk page which might meet both our approval (see my entry on talk page dated 10 July 2008, under the heading "new proposal for lead section").  User Meowy has not yet commented on the proposal, also indicating later on that he/she will not be able to do so for a while   since he/she will be absent for a month (See Meowy's statements on talk page on 18 July and 4 August 2008).


 * Starting on 3 August 2008, several users, one after the other, have started to engage in wholesale reverts, taking the entry back to its version prior to 9 October 2007, undermined several months of discussion, and editing . They removed therewith also fully referenced information. None of these users (except for VartanM), has been involved in the discussions mentioned above and they do not have any contributions to the entry (except their recent – repeated-  wholesale reverts ). They basically kept wholesale reverting the article with no specific reasons.


 * I have invited them for discussion several times (see for example my entries on the talk page dated 3,4 and 7 August 2008). They completely  avoided discussion.


 * Since I could not get a single word relating to the content of the article from them, I was forced to undo their unjustified reverts

Given this situation, I hope you agree with my statement at the beginning, namely that you have actually protected the entry under a version which was implemented by means of wholesale reverts, rather than the version which was actually developed through a completely Wikipedia edit policies complient process. Such a protection punishes edit policies encouraged by wikipedia while rewarding those actually discouraged by it. Consequently, I kindly request that you remove the protection or, if you believe protection is necessary, keep the version dated 9 August 2008 (15.52), which I think is the legitimate one, as the protected version.Omer182 (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The point abut protecting a page is not to take sides - so taking the page back to a version before any of the current edits by any of the contesting editors took place is the probably best option for now. I can't contribute any suggestions for content at the moment, but I still consider your final version to be confusing and almost unreadable. The current protected version is at least free from those defects, though obviously it omits much recently added information. I hope that you realise that unless you are willing to compromise somewhat and let other editors actually add material (as opposed to you immediately erasing their added material and then sometimes adding it again, rewritten to suit your POV) then there isn't going to be much hope that this entry will be unprotected anytime soon. Meowy 17:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "so taking the page back to a version before any of the current edits by any of the contesting editors took place" - It already is. The current version existed before any of the currently involved parties began editing the article, including you and Omer who now believes he owns the article. This is the point from which one needs to start working. The only legitimate point Omer has made is that when he first began implementing his unacceptable changes he faced no opposition, of course that doesn't justify it.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 17:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The page has now been unprotected by the admin who had protected it earlier. The users who had repeatedly reverted the entry in a wholesale manner had not put forward any arguments for their reverts. They also refused to take part in a mediation. I have now put the entry back to its gradually evolved, fully referenced version. I now hope that we will be able to have a meaningful discussion and editing process in the future.Omer182 (talk) 08:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What you call a "gradually evolved, fully referenced version" is actually mostly just your personal version of what you want the content of this entry to be. Meaningful discussion and (more importantly) some sort of stable version for this entry is only going to be possible if you admit other editors into the process and stop trying to monopolise the editing and the content. Meowy 15:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ditto. He doesn't seem to get it. As I have said before, I'm willing to work with him on a sentence by sentence basis. But his rewrite of this article is unacceptable. --  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 23:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Back to proper discussion and editing... The lead section
I have been following this article for some time now and have observed the discussion between omer182 and meowy; the blind revert attacks / protection/unprotection and again blind reverts. I see now (and hope) that the reverting squad may have changed mind. Eupator's statement to discuss each sentence is also promising. I hope ı will myself take more part. The discussion between omer182 and meowy was interrupted on the lead section.I propose to get on with that section.Omer182 had proposed a new wording mid July. I favor that new proposal rather than the now standing one.I propose not to include the first alternative sentence in that proposal but to include the other two.Cihsai (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. If you prefer the new proposal it is ok with me. As I said before, I am indifferent between the inclusion or exclusion of the statements in italics.Omer182 (talk) 15:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So I see we have started again (sigh). Meowy 02:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Present situation...... Hemshin in Turkey
This section needs a reorganisation in various aspects. To start with ı want to come back to the editing and discussion early august regarding the first two paragraphs. The real subject of those two paragraphs seem to be the use of Hemşince (Homshetsi) in the cultural life of Turkey at present as well as the artists involved. So far no problem. But the wording is such that instead of supplying objective info about the topic, this section serves to criticise Turkey in a biased manner. Whether it is biased or not is actually of secondary importance…This article is not the arena for that. The facts related to the subject, namely use of Hemşince in cultural life at present are the following: Özcan Alper is a film director. His first impact was the short film Momi in Hemşince which was shown in the İstanbul Film Festival in 2001. His first long movie, "Sonbahar (Autumn) has won the prestigious Altın Koza Best Movie Prize in 2008. This work is also related to the Hopa Hemşin region and Hemşince is used. Pop singers Kazım Koyuncu (deceased 2007) and Gökhan Birben have used folksongs in Hemşince in their Works. ı propose to reword the first two paragraphs in line with the above and delete the stuff about the turkısh politicsCihsai (talk) 21:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the above, Cihsai. Your words clarify your purpose here, it is good to get that out into the open at the start. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 21:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks to you also Meowy, for your appreciation. I must confess that ı don't quite see how ı deserved it; but always nice to receive "thanks" and suport Cihsai (talk) 22:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Before we enter into content let me observe Meowy, that you have inserted the wording in question without first proposing it and therefore without giving the possibility of discussion. You see that ı am not happy with the wording. Back and forth reverting is rather ugly...can you please delete your own entry and discuss it first?? alternatively you could agree provisionally with my proposal, which is surely also in your opinion not wrong but incomplete..we could discuss what you consider incomplete and perhaps reach a mutual understanding....Please consider those suggestions Cihsai (talk) 20:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC) For whatever it is worth: the wording in question is new (in netto terms), is put there without prior discussion and is controversial. I see that wikpedia policies do not bindingly require prior discussion (but encourage it ) and consequently allow also deletions and reverts (within limits i hope) Let us try to ease the path to a editing without unilateral deletions and reverts.Having all the above in mind, my proposal to you was and is to use the following wording''': ″Hemşince″ in turkish cultural life Hemşince (Homshetsi) was first used in a motion picture in the short film Momi (Grandma) by Özcan Alper which was shown in the İstanbul Film Festival in 2001. Alper's first long movie ”Sonbahar″ (Autumn) has won the prestigious Altın Koza Best Movie Prize in 2008. This work is also related to the Hopa Hemşin region and Hemşince is used.Pop singers Kazım Koyuncu (deceased 2007) and Gökhan Birben have used folksongs in Hemşince in their Works '''These are uptodate plain facts and there can be no controversy. Obviously you consider this to be incomplete. Your wording includes further the elements that the ”Kemalist” Turkey is depressing the Hemshinli in general and has created diffuculties to the film director in particular. You are by all means entilted to learn why I would object to such statements. I believe I had eloborated on that but it has obviously not satisfed you. I am willing to discuss it further with you and maybe we can come to an understandig. During that discussion, it would be nice to have a wording in the article which is not objected to. So please reconsider this proposal. Cihsai (talk) 23:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC) From your various contributions ı understand that you are to a certain degree aware of the situation in Turkey and have been to there and have also read something on Hemşin. Consequently ı am sure you know that the two paragraphs at the start of the section “Hemshinli in Turkey” does not communicate a true set of info to users who would read this section. Nevertheless, let me assume that you beleive these paragaraphs reflect a true picture and state my objections. To start with, I take the first paragaraph. -The referenced book is not a specific work on Hemshin or Hemshinli or the more or less greater region where the Hemshinli live. -On the contrary it covers the total periphery of the Blacksea, touching historical episodes as distant as Herodotus. (i.e coverage of a great geography ,milliones of people and thousands of years and that within 275 pages) -The author allocates merely several sentences to Hemshinli (which he calls a tiny group of 20000 people) and therein states that they are descendants of Armenians and that this is reason enough to to keep heads down. No argumentation, analysis or even reference provided. -The Author is a journalist without any specific interest in the area let alone the Hemshinli. See here. Therefore this publication can not be considered to be a reliable source for this particular entry which gives detailed info about the Hemşinli.The opinion of an author, who is not even an expert, can not be reflected as the factual truth  Cihsai (talk) 00:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC) Even when you don’t use such expressions in the future,which i strongly hope, it is a pity if you really think like that. Such a mindset makes it nearly hopeless to have a fruitful discussion. Nevertheless ı will try to do my best: Please notice that in my argumentation on 20 Oct. ı have not declared that Mr. Neal Ascherson is uncredible as a person or that his works cannot be used as sources in general.. ı have explained why we should not use this book and the opinion of the author expressed therein (statements you want to include into the article) in this specific WP Article. You have not produced any counterargument to my specific explanations. Cihsai (talk) 22:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * YOu have misunderstood my words a bit. I was happy that you were not hiding your purpose but were up front about it - However, I was not happy about your purpose. The impact that the film Momi made is important to this article. The fate of the director should remain in the article because it indicates the limits the Turkish state wanted placed (at the time of the film's release) on the public expression of Hemshinli ethnicity. To say that to do this "serves to criticise Turkey in a biased manner" has as much sense as the attitudes of those who accused Alper of committing a terrorist act by merely making a non-political film. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 02:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I see now that we have a difference...i hope we can clear it by discussion.
 * I don't need to propose adding material when that material is well sourced, has proper citations, and is on-topic. And the material has been on the page for many months. It is you who have to come up with valid reasons to remove the material, and then get consensus that those reasons are valid. Saying it "serves to criticise Turkey in a biased manner" is not a valid reason, it is just your opinion. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 22:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Proposing wording before adding may not be a must but it is civil and helpful for reasonable editing. You have seen that ı disagree the material to be " on-topic " ...so it does not make sense for you to justify your wording once again with what is on debate. The citations you mention are also problematic ..ı will come to that if and when we can create a discussion enviroment....I still hope that you are somewhat different than the reverting squad who seem to have been reactivated just now and kindly ask you to reconsider my offer : let us first discuss before putting material into the article. I repeat that the wording ı have suggested can not be evaluated to be wrong (as they are mere plain facts) Let it stay and lets discuss what you consider is missing there Cihsai (talk) 10:11, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Cihsai, the material you are objecting to has been in the article for some 6 months. I'm not going to restrospectively propose its insertion because it is valid content: it contains facts that are on-topic (they are about the Hemshinli) and that are supported by references. Are you disgreeing with those facts? I don't think so. Are you saying the references are invalid? Again I don't think so. Are you saying that the material gives undue weight to one viewpoint? If you were, and gave examples to back up your claim, then that would be a proper reason. But just saying it "serves to criticise Turkey in a biased manner" isn't a reason. Neither is saying it is not "on-topic" without explaining why. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 17:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Meowy, let us first clarify the past development: You have inserted the wording,which i object to,on 18-21 June; not earlier. It was put without prior discussion. Thereafter there were several total reverts ; so your material vanished as well at intervals; somehow as  “collateral damage”.  At an interval, where the article was on its uptodate version, on 17 July, your added material was objected to by a ip user (who identified himself to be an Hemshinli American). I myself agreed with him and deleted the wording in question on 19 july. You reverted on 20 july, finding my deletion not to be in line with wikipedia policies. Hereafter was again a period of revert attacks by a group of users and Omer182’s reinstatements; ending up in a protection of the article suiting the purpose of the attacks, i.e your material was again “collateral damage”. The protection was lifted on 8 september. I have placed a proposal on 22 september and, receiving no objections but thanks from you (which I obviously misinterpreted), have edited the article accordingly. This edit lived a couple of hours until being reverted by yourself.
 * That section of the article exists to describe the Hemshinli in Turkey and their current status. I did not invent those quotes, they are from credible, scholarly works, and they deal with the subject of that section of the article. It is important to say that the director of the first movie made using the Hemshin dialect was accused of committing a terrorist offense just for making that film. It shows that incidents have happened proving that what the quotes are saying exists in reality. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 20:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Meowy, you obviously have not agreed to my proposal about the "method", namely that we first put what is not controversial and carry on the discussion of the controversial part.You wish to stick to the controversial wording which you have inserted without discussion. Your last comment indicates that your main purpose is not to provide info on cultural activities of the Hopa Hemşinli/use of Hemşince but to establish that Turkey is depressing its people.
 * You are attempting to do some whitewashing. That quote is backed up by (and in turn backs up) the Rudiger Benninghaus source (which you also want removed). The chapter in "The Hemshin" by Benninghaus gives a lot more info about the limits the Turkish state has put on the public expression of Hemshinli identity and about the propaganda produced to rewrite their origins, so it is pointless to try and get the Ascherton quote removed - it is in agreement with everything Benninghaus writes. And several sentences written by Neil Ascherson have more credibility than the combined writings of 1000 Turkish "professor doctors". If you feel that that section of the article is too negative then why not add more content, but don't expect properly referenced material to be removed just because you don't like what it is telling. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 16:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Meowy, your statement [And several sentences written by Neil Ascherson have more credibility than the combined writings of 1000 Turkish "professor doctors”] is insulting and seems to reflect deplorable hatred against a nation. Your statement [You are attempting to do some whitewashing] is unpolite besides being wrong . You should refrain from using such agressive language.


 * You did declare Ascherson to be not credible, you said his words were not "the factual truth" and that his book "can not be considered to be a reliable source". So I commented on how, in the real world, the public perception of his writings would compare to the perception of writings produced by academics in Turkey, who seem to regularly prostitute themselves and their profession. However, this is not the place to discuss the standards of many Turkish academics. The facts are that the source exists, its author is credible and well-respected, and the essential truth of the quote is confirmed by the follow-on information about the fate of the film maker. There is additional material in the chapter by Rudiger Benninghaus in the book "The Hemshin" which would confirm that truth even more. I did not use that aditional information because I did not want that part of the article to become too long or concentrate too much on those negative aspects of the Turkish state's attitudes to minorities. But I could expand the article to include some of that additional information. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy  16:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

your thinking about Turks,Turkey,turkish institutions are of no interest to me.I have to take you as a discussion partner because this is wikipedia. Try to behave accordingly. To close the discussion on the quotation from Ascherson one last remark: I am positive that you are actually capable of understanding what you read. i cannot explain how you could reduce my  statement: “Therefore this publication can not be considered to be a reliable source for this particular entry which gives detailed info about the Hemşinli.The opinion of an author, who is not even an expert, can not be reflected as the factual truth” to a mere “ascherson is uncredible” You have not produced any specific counterargument to my specific arguments. You kept on repeating that the statements of Asherson are confirmed by the other reference (Benninghaus) and vice versa. So now ı present my comments on that part of the circle, namely the second paragraph of your controversial entry:

For convenience i quote the controversial part here: '“As a result, Alper was accused in the Court for State Security of producing material intended to destroy the unity of the state, under article 8 of Turkey's anti-terror law. This law was repealed in 2003 after EU pressure, and Alper's trial did not go ahead.″'The reference given is a article of Benninghaus.In that article Benninghaus reports that a trial was opened against Alper.He bases that info on personal communication with Alper.

- The existance of a courtcase cannot be proven depending on personal communication; therefore Benninghaus'es report cannot be reflected as factual truth in Wikipedia (even if Benninghaus would be a wonderful person). - Benninghaus does not give details about the charges and evidence.(If that courtcase was opened without any trace except for personal info).So it is a mere opinion /speculation of the author as to why that trial was opened. This opinion cannot be presented as factual truth in wikipedia. - Filing a courtcase is not a ultimate step, what matters is the verdict. Pending such verdict one cannot draw conclusions except for political analysis. This article is not the place for it. - The trial (if filed) did not proceed becuse the related law was changed. - Benninghaus correctly states that this is “Due to the requirements of membership in the European community” You have translated it to “after EU pressure″. Why and how a country changes its laws, whether the laws are good or bad, are not to be discussed in this wikipedia article. Just for your personal education the following: It is Turkey who wants to join EU. This because Turkey acknowledges that EU standarts (also in democracy and humanrights) are superior to those prevailing in Turkey. Consequently Turkey has changed a great deal of legislation and is in process of further changes. - We are writing now end of 2008. We do not know for sure whether there was a court case, if yes on what grounds and what would be the result. But we do know that Alper has continued to be fruitful and has won a prestigous prize. It would be beneficial for clarification if you would adress those points individually. Cihsai (talk) 00:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * If you want to continue wasting your time, be my guest. However, your attempts at whitewashing will still not succeed - the information stays, and I now intend to expand on it. You have a serious misunderstanding about the use of sources, and about the way books are written. You also have a serious underestimation of my understanding of Turkish society. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy  02:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Meowy, the odds od two spa's on such an obscure article as this are slim to none. A checkuser is in order.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 15:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think they are probably different people but connected in a real world way. I knew Omer182 wasn't a normal editor once he began using (or rather misusing) Simonian's "The Hemshin", it is an expensive and hard to find book that only a specialist library is likely to have, such as a university dealing with middle-eastern subjects or a university actually in Turkey. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 17:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Eupator, is destruction all you are capable of? You don't suffice with disrupting the article with your destructive reverts, you also add nonsense inbetween a communication on content. You can share your phantasies with your buddies on your or their talk pages...so, keep away from this page until you have something to say on content...(Besides, don't delete warnings you receive to correct your attitude from your talk page) Cihsai (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)