Talk:Henri, Count of Paris (1933–2019)/Archive 1

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Edofedinburgh 11:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

unionists?
For the Orléanists, he is the heir of Louis-Philippe of France; for unionists, the heir of Henry V of France, and so of Charles X.

None of the definitions at Unionist seems applicable. ?? &mdash;Tamfang 06:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Son of Charles X?
While "Henri VII"'s claim is obviously ludicrous, there should still be some semblance of respectability about this article. The first paragraph states that he is recognised as the "son of Charles X". While Orleanist logic and claims are absurd, I think that even the most extreme Orleanist would not claim such a thing. It could of course be interpreted that he is the heir of Henri V who was the son of Charles X, but that is also false. Henri V was the grandson of Charles X. 41.133.47.252 (talk) 15:47, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "son of Charles X" is only a way to say that his claim of the Throne of France recognized in 1815, not the throne of his direct ancestor Louis-Philippe, founded in 1830, finished in 1848, definitly non-claimed in 1873 (by a previous count of Paris, Philippe d'Orléans +1896). Lord Fitzwarin (talk) 16:51, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps this is something that doesn't translate properly from French. Saying "son of Charles X" in standard English means that King Charles X is his father. Nothing else is really implied. 41.133.47.252 (talk) 10:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, apparently is was a typo, it was supposed to say "...and so of Charles X". Still not true, but at least it makes more sense. 41.133.47.252 (talk) 05:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Heir to Charles X ?
In lead "...he is the heir of Henry, Count of Chambord, and so of Charles X, King of France."

Is not "heir of Henry, Count of Chambord" enough? Why add "and so of Charles X"? In which case, why not... "Louis XIV", instead ? When linked to Chambord, the reader gets the whole connection.

--Frania W. (talk) 14:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I concur that we do not need to mention Charles X; Chambord is enough. Noel S McFerran (talk) 18:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Move to "Henri d'Orléans, count of Paris"
Paris Match calls him "Le comte de Paris, Henri d'Orléans", "Henri d'Orleans, Comte de Paris", or just plain "Henri d'Orléans. Translate that to English and I get "Henri d'Orléans, count of Paris". On his own Web site, he is "Le Prince Henri de France" and "Le Comte de Paris". In Royalty who wait, Opfell calls him "Henri, count of Paris." Given name only is royal style. So I think we should avoid that unless it is indisputably the common practice, but that is not the case here. Kauffner (talk) 13:19, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, but what happened to WP:UE? We have naming conventions for royals and you've given all French sources which show French usage. You really ought to have discussed this before making a controversial move. Seven Letters 14:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You're saying that even though he gets a surname in French, perhaps he is treated as a royal in English? That would be bizarre. Here is The Times of London. They call him "Henri d’Orleans". Kauffner (talk) 15:55, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I saw Louis Philippe III and then stopped reading. What's reliable at that point? Orléans was declared the titular designation of the house during the monarchy. That it would be the same form as a surname is a moot point. This man claims titles extralegally (and not illegally) and is socially recognized in various degrees. Seven Letters 15:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you are missing the point. "Prince Henri" is royal style, whereas "Henri d’Orleans" is not. Kauffner (talk) 16:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * So? We are talking about a royal here. Seven Letters 16:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree here this should be RM'd. I don't understand why we had a small 'c' for count when the title was given still in English. Small 'c' would be used if we were to give the title for some reason in French. - dwc lr (talk) 14:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In what language is he called "Prince Henri"? Only on his Web site, as near as I can tell. Kauffner (talk) 14:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This is the correct form according to WP:NCNT but there is a possibility for change I imagine. - dwc lr (talk) 14:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Prince Henri, Count of Paris, Duke of France → Henri d'Orleans

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Henri d'Orléans, Count of Paris by Future Perfect at Sunrise. Favonian (talk) 15:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Prince Henri, Count of Paris, Duke of France → Henri d'Orleans – This is a proposal to move the current pretender to the French throne to his WP:COMMONNAME as it is usually given in the WP:RS. This subject is of course hardly the only pretender who is currently given in a flowery form that might be appropriate for a wedding invite, but not so much for an encyclopedia. "Prince" does appear in various sources, but should nonetheless be dropped as a WP:HONORIFIC in the same way as other non-noble titles such as “president”, “general”, “Dr.”, etc. Given name only is royal style as thus represents a fringe POV. AFP, France's main news service, gives the subject as either Henri d'Orleans or as Henri d'Orleans, count of Paris. (Both of these examples are in English.) The Times of London calls him "Henri d'Orleans". (See the second result.) The French-language RS certainly gives him with a surname. His entry on French Wiki is Henri d'Orléans (1933-). Paris Match calls him "Le comte de Paris, Henri d'Orléans", "Henri d'Orleans, Comte de Paris", or just plain "Henri d'Orléans. TF1 News gives him as "Henri d'Orléans". In short, both French and English RS almost invariably give the subject with the surname "d'Orleans" and without a "duke of France." I consider Henri d'Orleans, count of Paris an acceptable form as well. Usage for "count of Paris" is mixed. My preference is to drop it given that he is not actually a count. Kauffner (talk) 03:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support fake titles of "Count of Paris" and "Duke of France" for countries without any remaining titles is misleading and wrong. You can claim to be King of Wessex but it's not factual. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 07:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per WP:NCNT based on common usage. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 07:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S.: he names himself "Count of Paris", but I'm doubtfull about "Duke of France" too. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 07:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose as he is commonly called Count of Paris.--Yopie (talk) 11:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:NCNT. I'd be open to dropping 'Duke of France' though as I am not sure how widespread its use is as he seems to just use 'Count of Paris' himself. - dwc lr (talk) 12:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: If you use d' rather than of, you may as well put the little mark on the é. —Tamfang (talk) 19:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Although I don't object to dropping the "Duke of France", "Count of Paris" is common, in accordance with NCROY. FactStraight (talk) 22:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Alternative: WP:NCNT supports the present title to his rival's article: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. The parallel here would be Henry, Count of Paris, the title by which our subject is known; note that Count of Paris is not a fake title - it was granted to Prince Philippe, Count of Paris by a reigning king.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * One made up name doesn't justify another. If you look at the sequence of counts of Paris, the title is apparently not hereditary. French Wiki calls the subject's title a "titre de courtoisie", which seems to be a polite way to say "fake." Kauffner (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don't talk nonsense. Louis Phillipe made up the title exactly as much as Queen Elizabeth does when granting Earldoms to her family.  A courtesy title is not fake.


 * As for the table: No title was hereditary, in the modern sense, in the eighth century - including the Crown of France; although the chart shows both in practice descended from father to son. That title was absorbed into the Crown when Hugh Capet succeeded; since then it has been granted three times, two of which became extinct. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Rename to Henri d'Orleans, Count of Paris. "Duke of France" appears to be a title he has given himself.  The title Count of Paris appears to ahve been granted to an ancestor by the last king.  Normally the title would have merged on his accession, but he never acceded to the French throne.  I have often heard the title used for the pretenders to the French throne.  I therefore see no reason for not using the same format as for a British peer, except for the ordinal.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support, but Henri d'Orléans would be better: really if you are accepting using French d’ instead of English of, you should accept French Orléans instead of “English” Orleans. (I’m aware Tamfang already said this, but I think I’m explaining further.) MTC (talk) 21:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support I tend to oppose using titles of nobility in relation to countries which have declared a republic. PatGallacher (talk) 01:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Understood. But just as a point of clarification, France is one of those republics which has not abolished hereditary titles and protects them in law against usurpation. Many titles belonged hereditarily to the Orléans branch of France's royal family (e.g. "Duc d'Orléans", "Prince de Joinville", "Duc de Guise", "Comte d'Eu") but it has never been tradition within the Capetian dynasty, on or off the throne, to confine use of titles to those legally bestowed. For example, prior to becoming King Philip V of Spain, that grandson of Louis XIV was known as the Duc d'Anjou in France, even though it was a titre de courtoisie, and it is a title that his branch of the House of Bourbon and his heir-male, Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou, are still known by today. In the French Republic, the heir-male of Charles X whom the French rejected as prospective king was nonetheless known as the Comte de Chambord''. FactStraight (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Unlike in Austria, you can call yourself whatever you like in France. But a titre de courtoisie has no legal standing. The "count of Paris", "duke of Anjou" and "comte de Chambord" titles all fall into this category. Kauffner (talk) 06:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So according to your logic we should rename the page Dr. Dre because it is not his legal name?


 * But anyway, France has, although abolished the nobility class, not abolished noble titles and recognize them and protects them in law. Unlike in Austria where the use of titles are forbidden as if they never existed to rewrite history, in France and internationally they still have social validity and historical relevance. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 07:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Everyone's got a title, you know. But its not Steven Jobs, Apple CEO or Bill Clinton, president of the United States. Kauffner (talk) 11:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Like in Austria -- or anywhere else -- you can call yourself whatever you like, as long as you don't get caught. You have made a false assumption about the right to "call yourself whatever you like in France". Since 1993, the French penal code Article 433-19, makes it a legal offense punishable by imprisonment and fine to alter your name on a legal document from that recorded on your official état civil (your legal name is usually recorded on it by your parents). For instance, it's illegal -- and French courts have been known to order violaters to desist from doing so -- to unilaterally add "de" in front of your surname, making it sound "noble". Even if you avoid using a made-up title on legal documents, if that title was legally inherited by another Frenchman, he may have you restrained from its use and recover damages. As for courtesy titles having no "legal standing" -- of course not, that's why they're called "courtesy titles"! But such titles have never been considered "fake" when used consistent with a nation's tradition -- but are considered fake when used contrary to that tradition. Since all of his ancestors for the last thousand years (including during the last 150 during which his family has been dethroned) have publicly borne territorial titles aside from or in addition to their legal names, this man's doing so falls within French tradition. Besides, a person's legal name is, I have been told repeatedly, an irrelevant criterion in the consideration of naming a Wikipedia biographical article. FactStraight (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose:He is commonly known as "Count of Paris" a title that is on his passport. Also, he is a pretender to the French throne, not the. 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Get rid of "Prince" and of "Duke of France". Keep "Count of Paris" (or "comte de Paris", whichever; no preference on capitalization). No objections to inserting "d'Orléans". Support Henri d'Orléans, count of Paris vel sim. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Support. He has named himself Duke of France, the relative credibility of his claim to the throne is disputed by pretty much everyone, there is no real reason to retain titles. Comte de Paris could be retained since he seems to have inherited that title legitimately, but per Fut.Perf., there's no reason keep Prince or Duke of France.. eldamorie (talk) 21:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I think there is a clear emerging consensus here for something of the type Henri d'Orléans, Count of Paris, which seems to accord with most argument listed both on the "support" and "oppose" side, so I'm going to implement this now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Can I point out that the photograph is the wrong way round. Medals, buttonhole and breast pocket are all on the left of the photo, when they should be on the right. I don't know how to fix it, so perhaps someone who does know could do so.46.208.179.114 (talk) 21:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Photo
Just to confirm (as per the above) that the photo is clearly reversed as the decorations are supposed to be on the left chest, i.e. to the right of the picture, and not the left of the picture as is the case.

A quick google image search displays correct duplicates of this image with the decorations on the left chest, where they should be.

I have no idea why the photo was reversed... And I would suggest correcting it.

This can be easily done on photoshop by opening the original image file, selecting the whole area of the image, and then dragging it to either side, thus 'flipping' the photo as if it were a book page and consequently reversing the image.

Save the file reupload it and that's it.

honors, decorations?
Can anyone identify the four decorations he's wearing in the photo? Can anyone tell me what honors or decorations he's been awarded, or what chivalric orders he belongs to? Occam&#39;s Shaver (talk) 01:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is in the article. From right Legion of Honour, Cross for Military Valour, Croix du combattant and probably Colonial Medal, all for his service in the Algerian War. According to Guy Stair Sainty World Orders of Knighthood and Merit, he can award Order of the Holy Spirit (p. 329 op.cit.) and Order of Saint Michael (p. 322). Of course, according to Stair Sainty in p. 1869 op. cit., he is Protector of Order of Saint Lazarus. If you can, buy or borrow this book, is full of up to date informations about Orders.--Yopie (talk) 23:32, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * He also has the Grand Cross of the Order of Prince Danilo I. - dwc lr (talk) 18:13, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Naming
I know there was a RM on the matter in 2011 and I know that Wikipedia doesn't exactly call for consistency between articles (but rather does within them)... but does anyone find it strange that an identically named father and son are differentiated by one having a "surname" added and the other not? I thought it was more usual for us to use birth and death dates for disambiguation purposes. Seven Letters 18:21, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested move 18 March 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: pages moved. Andrewa (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

– The current titles are ambiguous and are assigned arbitrarily. We could swap them and it would make as much sense. They are both Henri d'Orléans and both counts of Paris. If preferred, we could use "d'Orléans" instead of "Count of Paris", as the French WP does. Srnec (talk) 22:05, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Henri d'Orléans, Count of Paris → Henri, Count of Paris (born 1933)
 * Henri, Count of Paris → Henri, Count of Paris (1908–1999)
 * Support, as most concise and therefore best disambiguation. Father and son, unusually, share and are both best known by the same name and same title. This solution avoids imposing differentiated titles seldom actually used, including the younger Henri's use of Duc de France as a subsidiary title (although the latter, along with Henri d'Orléans, Sr. and père, as well as Henri, 1st Comte de Paris and Henri, 2nd Comte de Paris, and their English versions should all probably be redirects). FactStraight (talk) 05:35, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Support Thought for a moment,the proposal is good.--Tr56tr (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:27, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Support well spotted and well thought out. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Support for consistency. Both are widely known as "Comte de Paris" in French sources, so no need to add "d'Orléans" in the titles. — JFG talk 08:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Nominated for the main page at ITN
-Ad Orientem (talk) 01:40, 22 January 2019 (UTC)