Talk:Henri Coiffier de Ruzé, Marquis of Cinq-Mars

Untitled
Is it established that Louis's favorites were his lovers? It seems to me that this is rather controversial, and that many historians would deny actual homosexual activity by Louis. So that bit seems potentially POV. john k 23:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I can read French, but I often misunderstand the nuances. However, is Louis's comment, "Je voudrais bien voir la grimace qu'il fait à cette heure sur cet échafaud", possibly intended as a sexual pun? "La grimace" in modern French can have a specifically sexual connotation, as in "la grimace de la petite mort". But I'm not sure 1) if a native French speaker would chuckle as I did when reading this comment, or 2) if the modern understanding has any relation at all to a 17th-century comment. But when I read that line, I totally understood it as, "I'd like to see that same look on his face now."

Bearing in mind that this was recorded by Tallement, it seems even more likely to me that it was intended to remind the reader of the king's former relationship with Cinq-Mars, regardless of whether Louis said it himself or whether it was Tallement's literary invention.

As for the concern about potential bias in interpreting Louis's favourites--the article does not state that ALL of his farourites were lovers. However, there isn't much reason to doubt that Cinq-Mars, at the very least, was sexually involved with Louis. I'm not sure how much evidence there is for his involvement with others, but it's a little hard to assert that Cinq-Mars was the first and only one. MonteGargano (talk) 17:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, there are many sources which claim Louis XIII had some involvement with Cinq-Mars and "induldged with crushes on girls and boys" in his early childhood (Moote: 'Louis XIII, the Just', ch. 3, I think), yet there are some reasons to distinguish between the true, mature Louis XIII and an immature, literary made-up Louis XIII. First, Moote also points out that his attitude changed. In his early childhood, he was a very sexually developed child, yet after he had received his baptism and had been educated in the teachings of the Catholic faith, he was described as being a very chaste child (and being also very chaste in his adult life, hence his mock-title "Louis the Chaste") Moote further points out Louis was very religious and did his job as a priest-king (for that was one of his official titles) dutifully. So could you imagine a priest-king who dedicates France to the Virgin Mary and spends almost his entire time with a Cardinal or St. Vincent de Paul at the same time being sexually active with men (just as his half-brother César de Vendôme, whom he couldn't stand)? Furthermore, Moote points out that most favourites (like Luynes and St. Simon) were simply his closest friends (so close in fact, that for him, Luynes was even a father figure). However, the most striking evidence against an involvement of Cinq-Mars and Louis XIII is the fact that the stories about it were actually spread by the Marquise de Rambouillet (and later possibly also by the Mme de Chevreuse) who were both notable for disliking the king a lot and criticising him quite strongly (Mme de Chevreuse: "The king is an idiot and incapable of governing"). It is very possible they simply made up this story, since they are no reliable sources and there are numerous cases were they actually did make such stories up. Later, Tallemant used the account of Rambouillet for his story. The Count of ZielinThe Count of Zielin (talk) 16:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Richelieu - Louis split
I'm removing the part where it says the execution strained the relations between Louis XIII and Cardinal Richelieu. Not only were they both dead within six months, but Louis was with the Cardinal through his last days, sometimes feeding him by hand. Source for that is CV Wedgewood's The Thirty Years War, 2005 NYRB Classics, page 439. JoshNarins 14:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Henri versus Henry
Please see Talk:Henry III of France — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)