Talk:Henri Duponchel

Name
Surely we need to find out the name by which was referred to by his contemporaries at the peak of his career. "Henri" may not have been the name by which he was generally known, but perhaps a name his family used, or a name on his birth certificate. After reading Simon William's note in The Cambridge Companion, this seemed like the right name, but it may not be the best choice by Wikipedia standards. --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Judging by the search results in the French Wikipedia, it seems he was much better known as "Henri" (8x) than as "Charles-Edmond" (1x) . (I know this doesn't hold up in the court of Wikipedia, but still …) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Ivor Guest is the only other source, besides Charlton's book, that I have found which has adopted the first name Henri. But sometimes it takes a while before these things catch on. Or perhaps other authors have not accepted Tamvaco's conclusions. We probably need to investigate this issue a bit more. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The birth name was 'Henry' [sic], later usually written Henri. - see Multiple Duponchel by Anne Dion-Tenebaum (1997). This predates Tamvaco so I don't see that he should be given credit for 'discovering' it. I don't have time to do much followup on this at the moment alas.--Smerus (talk) 13:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I notice that art texts are calling him Charles-Henri and Edmond-Henri. It's not unusual for French folk of those days to have a string of names. Maybe it's Charles Edmond Henri Duponchel. Pkeets (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The Dion-Tenebaum ref certainly simplifies matters. Thanks! --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried to add some more explanation over the confusion in names, but I have been struggling with how to say it. Please feel free to modify it. Thanks for help! --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:25, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There may be more to this story. It seems possible that there were two people with the name Henri Duponchel, one a goldsmith/silversmith, the other a scenic designer and theatre impresario. Perhaps there is a reason that Simon Williams cites Tamvaco, rather than Dion-Tenenbaum. [Update: according to Tamvaco, the full name of the Opera director was Edmond-Henri Duponchel (p. 448, snippet view).] [Update2: there is a bust of Edmond Henri Duponchel in the Palais Garnier corridor outside the auditorium on level 2 on the east side nearest the stage (Fontaine, p. 69)] --Robert.Allen (talk). 16:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

This is getting interesting. I have looked through the correspondence of Meyerbeer, but although the editor names him in the index 'Charles' or 'Charles Edmond' D., in the correspondence itself (whether to or from) he is just 'Duponchel'. Thus, inconclusive. In 'Quelques documents inédits sur l'histoire de la musique 1825-1850' by Nicole Felkay (Revue de Musicologie, 1972, pp. 94-108 is listed a transfer of 4000 francs from the composer de Ruolz to Henri Duponchel - but there is no evidence that this Henri is connected to the Opera. And Veron's Memoirs, which refer a lot to 'M. Duponchel', don't give his first name.  Hmmm.--Smerus (talk) 20:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Apparently it's not only Wikipedians who have trouble with this name. In my attempt to insert a VIAF link, I discovered that he's listed twice: one for US & DE and another for FR.  I've sent a note to OCLC for them to combine the two.  When they've done that, I'll use that name for the appropriate link.  -- kosboot (talk) 22:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

In her 1992 review of Jane Fulcher's book on the Opera. Dion-Tenebabaum is quite explicit: (p. 397) in 1835, the Duponchel taking over the Opera was not, as Fulcher states, Charles-Edmond the architect, but Henri, the stage designer and, from 1842, head of a goldsmith's workshop.--Smerus (talk) 22:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That date is pretty early. It will be interesting to know whether Tamvaco was aware of Dion-Tenenbaum's research. After all, she is working at the Louvre and is probably primarily interested in the works of art. However, Paris is not that big a place. Surely they knew about each other's work. BTW, when I click the link to the review, I get a blank page. Not sure why. (What is the title of Fulcher's book? Is it The Nation's Image: French Grand Opera as Politics and Politicized Art ?) --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I checked several entries about Duponchel in Fulcher's book. I did not see any mention of life dates or first names. She sticks pretty much to what is in the documents at the Opera Library, which seem to refer to him mainly as "M. Duponchel". --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:43, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fulcher did not add a first name to her index entry, but looking online, on p. 87 I found that she refers to him as Edmond Duponchel. She states he studied architecture at the École des Beaux-Arts (without a citation), although in Dion-Tenenbaum's paper, which we cite she says that Henri Duponchel may have also been a student there (see the English abstract at the very end). Fontaine's book was first published in 2001 (2004? in English translation. The 2001 publication may be a different book). He uses the first names Edmond-Henri (see previous). --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:06, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The bust of Edmond Henri Duponchel at the Palais Garnier is by Jean-Baptiste Germain (1841–1910). The book does not say when it was created. [Update: Probably around 1870–1875, when most of the art in the Garnier was created, i.e., probably after Duponchel died.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * After a bit of searching I found a copy of Dion-Tenenbaum's review of Fulcher's French edition, which I do not have. All I can say is that in the English edition of her book Fulcher identifies the Duponchel who was the director of the Paris Opera as Edmond Duponchel (not Charles-Edmond Duponchel), and Edmond Duponchel is exactly the name given by the BnF authority file for the "Directeur de l'Opéra de Paris à partir de 1835" (see here). The BnF appears to have numerous letters that were sent to him, many of which they say are addressed to Edmond Duponchel. I obviously can't examine these letters, so maybe they are actually addressed to "M. Duponchel" and the BnF staff have added the first name. I imagine the problem may be that the BnF have not caught up with Dion-Tenenbaum on this. I wouldn't be surprised if they have not paid a lot of attention to this matter. In a way I feel sorry for Dion-Tenenbaum in trying to correct the problem. It seems to be a little bit like trying to sweep back the sea. After finally getting through most of her paper, I think she is probably completely right, but I still wouldn't mind seeing a few of those letters. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to fly to Paris right now. Shucks! --Robert.Allen (talk) 06:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * if Wikipedia had a 'like' tag I would use it here.--Smerus (talk) 09:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Speaking of priority, I just noticed that the Library of Congress authority file for Henri Duponchel cites Ivor Guest's 1980 edition of The Romantic Ballet in Paris for the name Henri. Of course, Guest rarely reveals the sources of the information in his books, and I don't know whether he published this anywhere else. --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I just was in contact with someone from VIAF. The two entries for Duponchel will be merged by next month.  They will cite your work on this article (in particular this talk page) as justification for merging. :) -- kosboot (talk) 16:34, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking care of this. There are still unanswered questions, but Dion-Tenenbaum remains our best source of information, even after looking at Tamvaco's bio from 2000. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:04, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Link not working?
I tried this link to Sotheby's:, but it gave me a blank page with the Sotheby name at the top. Maybe a server is down. Does it work for other people? --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't load for me today, either. This appears to be a stock bio they use for Morel's work, but the link doesn't appear to be reliable. I found a book and pdf sources to reference instead. Pkeets (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

BnF "Notice d'autorité personne"
I'm not sure how helpful these are: --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Notice d'autorité personne: Edmond Duponchel at the Bibliothèque nationale de France
 * Notice d'autorité personne: Henry Duponchel at the Bibliothèque nationale de France
 * BnF has a letter from Cornélie Falcon addressed to "Edmond Duponchel". Would she have been writing to the architect Charles-Edmond? Somehow it doesn't seem likely, but I suppose it's possible. --Robert.Allen (talk) 11:24, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what I explained above when I mentioned VIAF which concatenates authorities files from all over the world. The French and Spanish have him as http://viaf.org/viaf/87907627, and the US and Germany has him as:  http://viaf.org/viaf/79197757 (generally all forms of a name are to be under a single heading).  I've submitted a note to them explaining the problem.  I presume they'll make a correction in a few weeks if not sooner. -- kosboot (talk) 13:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * We really don't know because we don't have all the sources yet, but these may be different people. (Dion-Tenenbaum says they are the same person, but that is only a single source.) If it's uncertain, should they still be under one heading? --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look uncertain at all to me - the BNF & Spain clearly list opera-related works. If I have time I'll try to dig up a few more sources. -- kosboot (talk) 19:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I probably agree. In going through Dion-Tenenbaum's paper more carefully I came across this quote from L'Illustration (4 August 1849) concerning precious metal objects that Duponchel exhibited that year: "il nous semble qu'il est dangereux pour un directeur d'opéra de cultiver l'orfèvrerie perfectionée et de mener de front deux arts qui ont tant de sympathie l'un pour l'autre. Que M. Duponchel y réfléchisse!" This contemporary reference connecting his gold business with his work at the opera seems fairly convincing, unless perhaps the reporter was confusing two different men (because not actually knowing them). I'm still reading her paper. There may be additional even more definitive evidence that they are the same. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I also found a death announcement in Le ménestrel (19 April 1868) which says: "On sait que ce directeur de l'Opéra ne fut pas étranger à l'orfèvrerie." That, plus the fact he tried to leave the gold business to his son, but the mother was the one who took it over. (It was worth quite a bit of money.) [I also see that even in this they fail to mention his first names. Apparently it just wasn't proper.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Unless I'm missing something, the Getty Union List of Artists seems to be the only institution that has an authority file for Charles-Edmond Duponchel: http://viaf.org/viaf/172964957/#Duponchel,_Charles-Edmond_1804
 * Misattributions do seem to occur. BnF appears to still be attributing Charles-Edmond Duponchel's works to the wrong authority file:  [Either they don't agree with Dion-Tenenbaum or they just haven't caught up with her. Which is a bit strange, because obviously someone there has read her paper, because they cite it.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

How early did the confusion in names begin?
This 1858 biographical dictionary already calls him Charles-Edmond Duponchel before he was even dead: --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Vapereau, G. (1858). Dictionnaire universel des contemporains, p. 38. Paris: Hachette. Title page at Internet Archive

Disambigs
I have now changed the pages Charles Duponchel, and Charles-Edmond Duponchel, which were  redirects to Henri Duponchel, to disambigs for Henri Duponchel and Charles-Edmond Duponchel (architect).--Smerus (talk) 11:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)