Talk:Henri Hauser

Draft Largely Replacing Article
I have copied most of Draft: Henri Hauser to Henri Hauser as clearly superior to the previous article. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)


 * There is more content in the new version, but it is not superior to the previous version, as the previous version was properly referenced. --David Biddulph (talk) 02:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Robert McClenon, this is an appalling mess and, as David Biddulph says, not at all superior since it had zero references. It is also full of personal opinion and original research. I have restored the original version of the article as the first paragraph of the lede, so the reader can at least read a coherent, referenced paragraph summarizing his life and importance. I have not removed any of the draft you pasted in but have tagged the article for multiple serious issues. How on earth could you have possibly thought that all it needs is copyediting? Voceditenore (talk) 08:58, 24 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Update I have now added a basic infobox and completely removed the repeated plugs for the 2006 book and its authors which adds nothing to the biography and was full of inappropriate external links to every single author. The book is already cited as a reference which is more than sufficient. The remaining text is still disorganized, repetitive, full of inappropriate personal opinion, unreferenced, unencyclopedic commentary, and in places sheer puffery. Robert McClenon, are you planning to clean up this article or simply leave it as it is? If the latter, I am going to begin drastically editing it in the next few days. Voceditenore (talk) 09:49, 24 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Further update Attribtion is a real mess now after the cut and paste merge. I have re-directed to Henri Hauser to preserve the attribution history. The draft's creator, Atalante88, must continue to make improvements directly to Henri Hauser. Do not work on the draft as it will make an eventual history merge virtually impossible. Note also that the original draft was a verbatim translation from the French Wikipedia article and also requires attribution. I have added the appropriate template to the top of this talk page to provide that. Voceditenore (talk) 10:31, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Is this you Robert or Voceditenore who copy/past my article ? I did not imagine than an honest work on this article could attract so many insults from this Voceditenore who left so many discrepancies in the current articles. Henri Hauser was not at all an agragarian this was Walter Hauser and many incredible others.. What is the reliable reference of Voceditenore to tell that HH was an agragarian ? this is incredible as Voceditenore allows herself to give lesson to others !

I am really sure that Voceditenore knows nothing about Economy, History, Geography or Annales ! She knows nothing about references from "Academie Française", "Bibliotheque Nationale", neither the Leonore Database' etc... She displayed a picture from the book of Mrs Marin without any permission so, I'm trying to reach Mrs Marin at CNRS and from Strasbourg University. In addition, I know the work and Henri Hauser and his brother Felix-Paul because of my study at ESSEC Business School of Economics (French Grande Ecole) and also I must confess I am Part of Hauser's Family as Professor Denis Crouzet is.

I understand you need a correct article, probably it would require some improvements and I am ready to do so with only an Honest Assistance not from Voceditenore, on the other hand I know that the most important is to respect people and their work First !

Just what I request is Respect and Justice! Atalante88Atalante88 (talk) 21:41, 25 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Atalante88, it was Robert McClenon who copied a large part of your draft into this article—not me. My use of the term "agrarian" came from
 * Boer, Pim den (2014). History as a Profession: The Study of History in France, 1818-1914, p. 275. Princeton University Press
 * "The pioneering work of the next two professors, Henri See and Henri Hauser bore mainly on the agrarian and economic history of the early modern period."
 * On reflection, Boer may have been referring primarily to See rather than Hauser in that sentence, and I'm going to amend the article accordingly. As for your other points, I am quite familiar with French databases such as the Bnf, Académie française, Leonore, etc. and use the them frequently in articles I write on French subjects. The problem is that your draft's "References" were simply a vague list, with no indication of what statements in the draft they were supporting. Several of them lacked page numbers. Several of the links and at least one of the books didn't mention Hauser at all. And listing something like "Documents Gallica on Indochina" as a reference is worthless. You need to give full bibliographic information for each separate document, and provide a link to each document on Gallica. The pages Verifiability and Citing sources have guidance on the importance of proper sourcing and how to accomplish it.
 * Finally, if you are a relative of Henri Hauser (as you have stated above), you need to be aware that such a relationship often encourages an unconscious bias and makes it especially difficult to see where a neutral point of view has not been adhered to or to be objective, e.g. statements like
 * "An accomplished University Professor but a carrying-out man as well, huge erudite fully involved in his epoch, demanding patriot, and at the same time opened to the World in an exceptional way, polyglot endowed of a Universal Culture, achieved representative of a mind deeply liberal, if one man deserves to be considered as an example of remarkable academic Professor and a great scientist."
 * That sort of thing can never be written in Wikipedia's voice. You must attribute such a statement, in its totality, to a published source and state in the text whose view it is. For balance, you should also be aware of and include criticisms of Hauser's approach, of which there have been several. The pages Neutral point of view and No original research have further guidance on these issues. Along with Verifiability, they are the core content policies of Wikipedia. Voceditenore (talk) 17:26, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Consensus at the Teahouse seems to be that I made a mistaken in the large copy-past and should revert to the earlier version. I am willing.  What do the editors here say?  Robert McClenon (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Robert, I can have a go at cleaning this up and reorganizing it, and perhaps some other editors will help? Pinging Maproom and Theroadislong who've already done some work on this version and David Biddulph who's commented above. At the moment, the biographical narrative is incoherent and repetitive, and what remains will need to be rewritten in idiomatic English and neutral encyclopedic tone. This will inevitably involve removal of some inappropriate material, e.g. stuff like the sentence quoted above, and in fact the whole section. We may also have to temporarily remove some material for which we cannot find references and which may be based on family knowledge rather than published sources. Another issue is the multiple inline external linking which if to a valid reference will need to be converted to inline citations. Those links which do not mention Hauser or his family at all (and there are many, e.g. ) will need to be pruned.


 * We can always place a prominent link to the full version of the draft here, so future editors can consult it for ideas. Now that material from that draft has been pasted into the article, the draft cannot be deleted for licensing reasons even if the material is subsequently removed from the article. The French version of that draft (of which it is a verbatim translation) is readily available at fr:Henri Hauser, although it is also poorly referenced. The German Wikipedia version at de:Henri Hauser is short but has a useful chronological list of Hauser's principal writings properly formatted. In any case, I would hope that the material would not be reverted simply because of the spurious ownership claims above and here. The only valid reason for removal is that leaving it in in its current state is more of a disservice to the reader than taking it out. Voceditenore (talk) 07:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Clean up
I've gone ahead and started the clean up and reorganization. So far I've:
 * pruned some of the more egregious puffery/unattributed opinion, e.g. removed the "Hauser personality" section completely
 * pruned, referenced, and re-written in idiomatic English, the "Family" section (previously called "Life", for some reason) This section is pretty much done now.
 * pruned the repetition in the lede (deleting some material and moving other material to the "Biography" section)
 * blocked out a new structure for the main "Biography" section and subsections.

The new "Biography" section and its sub-sections are now very, very rough and will require further reorganization, pruning, and rewriting for idiomatic English and encyclopedic tone to make it coherent. There's still a lot of repetition, very poor referencing, inline external links, etc. I'll continue to work on that section over the next couple of days, but help would be greatly appreciated. If other editors do start working on it, please change under construction to in use while you're working to avoid edit conflicts. Voceditenore (talk) 16:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I've pretty much finished the clean up, copyediting, and referencing and have removed the maintenance tags. I plan to expand the "Later years" section in the next few days and it still needs proof-reading for typos, etc. Voceditenore (talk) 18:45, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

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