Talk:Henri Toivonen

Wiki format
Please replace Henri with Toivonen in the text, per Wiki format. Also, please see if races can be linked.LessHeard vanU 21:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been meaning to clean this article up for some time already. I'll do it eventually, if someone doesn't beat me to it. Prolog 10:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Did a complete re-write instead. Prolog 09:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"In 1986 Henri drove the Delta S4 at the Estoril track. He set such a fast time that he would have qualified in 6th position at that years Formula 1 grand prix. This proved the immence speed of the Group B cars." <- I really doubt that statement. Wasn't the track used the shortened one? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.76.247.55 (talk • contribs). — Preceding undated comment added 09:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Not according to any sources, except for some speculation on a motorsport forum, which is not a reliable source. Both motorsport related and non-related (Sligo Weekender) magazines have mentioned the Estoril drive. I added three references to it, along with the others. Prolog 09:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

-- _- on this topic - and not to take anything away from the performance, but wasn't the _actual_ qualifying for that GP done in the rain? that would have made a big difference, and significantly bridged the gap. Having said that, there is _no_ denying his talent, or the car's potential, merely for the sake of accuracy.... -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.84.107.121 (talk • contribs). — Preceding undated comment added 10:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The 1986 qualifying was run on a dry track. The 1985 race, however, was run during heavy rain. Prolog 17:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Kevlar/Carbon
I've taken the rather dubious step of editing the article to contradict what the reference says. Kevlar is an aramid, and is definitely not a 'form of Carbon'. Chemically it does contain some carbon, but you might as well say that it's a form of Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen or Chlorine. I think what the author of the Sligo weekender article meant was that the bodywork of the car was formed of a kevlar-reinforced plastic composite, which is similar to the more familiar carbon-fibre reinforced plastic composite. In both cases the plastic matrix into which the kevlar/carbon fibres are set may burn quite well, depending on what type it is. I wouldn't normally argue from authority, but I've got a degree in engineering, and what the Sligo weekender article says is patently not true. You'll need another reference to support my re-wording, I'm afraid. 4u1e 14:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact, I'd be a bit wary of anything you've got from that article. The story about the 1:18 lap round Estoril doesn't seem to have any firm basis either, although it is quoted frequently on blogs and bulletin boards. The closest thing to a proper reference for it is this (from here):
 * "Picking a winner was difficult, near impossible, but Henri Toivonen was one of the favorites. Still on a high and enjoying it all so much, he relaxed one evening by taking Grand Prix driver Jonathan Palmer on a few laps of the Estoril track in his Delta S4. In pouring rain, and at night, the Finn startled Palmer somewhat with the sheer performance of the racer, some unofficial estimates suggesting that the lap times would have had them somewhere on the front half of the grid for the 'wet' 1985 Portuguese Formula One race." (Rallyworld" 1986/87, from their coverage of the 1986 Rally of Portugal)
 * Which implies that the time was rather slower than the 1:18 usually quoted. Doubts about the lap time tend to centre around the fact that a Group B car had around half the power of the contemporary F1 cars and probably weighed more. 4u1e 14:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the kevlar correction. Of course factual inaccuracies must be removed, despite what the reference claims. I personally agree with many of the forum posts about the Estoril time; Group B car seems too heavy and does not have a top speed good enough to match F1 over a full race lap on a dry track. However, this performance is mentioned as a fact in several sources, and the only sources to question it are forum posts, which is why I decided to keep it. I haven't seen that quote from Rallyworld before, though, and would definitely like to have a copy of the book. There were many rallying yearbooks released in the 1980's, possibly containing information on this, but these have become very rare now. Maybe the Estoril bit should be reworded, as in "setting such a fast time that according to several sources he would have qualified in sixth position"? Prolog 16:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but pretty much the only sources to support it are also forum posts, and personal websites, and (OK, OK...) a couple of non-specialist news sites, who I suspect probably picked it up on the web. Are there any specialist professional news sites that support the claim? Unfortunately the Rallyworld source is second hand, but if I were betting, I'd place a fair amount of money that the story quoted above is the original version, and the details like the 1:18 lap time, the sixth place on the grid and the occasion (variously quoted as a PR event, a testing session and a stage of the 1986 WRC event) have all been added as part of the mythology. As things stand (i.e. until someone gets a look at a proper source) I'd be inclined to put something like: "It is often reported that (insert current story here) although this may be traceable to an incident reported in the 1986/87 Rallyworld event summary in which Toivonen (insert Rallyworld version here)". (See Brabham footnote 65 for a similar type of story) What do you think? 4u1e 16:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There is an unfortunate lack of coverage on Toivonen biography-wise, which of course means that there is not much about the Estoril claim either. The websites, that don't seem to be personal to me, mentioning the Estoril drive as a fact, besides Sligo Weekender, include at least MSN Cars UK, Pistonheads.com and DTMmagazine.com. Of these, Pistonheads.com seems to specialize in all kinds of motorsport. I'm not familiar with the site, but it seems to be a pretty popular reference and is apparently owned by Haymarket Publishing. Anyway, I think your proposed wording sounds good, but I was not sure if the Rallyworld bit can be added before it is properly verified. Now that I did some googling I found this same quote on other forums too. The problem is that the persons mentioning it here and here claim it is from Rallycourse, another rally annual. As interesting as the Rallyworld/Rallycourse quote is, maybe we should wait until someone comes here with a verified book title and a page number, and just use "It is often reported..." without the "although..." until then? Prolog 21:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair points, although I suspect the other two appearances of the Rallyworld/course quote are copied from the one at the Nostalgia Forum, because they post-date it by a couple of years and are less specific about where it came from! However, my suspicious mind aside, yes, I guess your suggestion would be the best thing. You're right of course, you have to go with what the refs say, it's just that I'm positive that in the most popular form (1:18.1, 6th on grid etc) it's an urban myth because none of those repeating it actually give a source for it and the story varies somewhat. Stephen Jay Gould wrote an interesting piece on how these kinds of stories come to be, they're common in all disciplines; He believed they were to do with the human mind's natural bent for telling stories and making 'logical' connections, if I remember correctly. However, that's my opinion, and is not a referenceable item! :D 4u1e 08:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think it makes sense that the story has changed quite a bit during these 20 years. I have reworded the Estoril parts with "it is often reported" now. Maybe when someone writes a book about Toivonen, we will finally have the full story on this, as well as on other interesting but less-known claims such as Toivonen testing for March Engineering. Prolog 20:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold
I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria. Please fix the following issues and I'll pass the article.
 * 1) "By finishing second, 3:41 minutes behind Ari Vatanen, he placed over seven minutes ahead Markku Alén,[16] who would go on to win that the Cup." Fix the phrasing of the last part of the sentence ("that the")
 * 2) "At his home event, Toivonen had to retire due to an engine failure, but at the RAC Rally, he drove to a ninth place." Possibly reword to "a night place finish".
 * 3) "In 1979, he concentrated on gathering rallying experience by competing in 15 rallies in the British, Finnish and European championships." Possibly reword to "In the 1979 season" like you did for the "1980 season" two sentences later. If you choose to, perhaps you can change the other seasons throughout the article as well.
 * 4) "Factory team contract meant the advent of Toivonen's first "works" season, and 1980 was largely a trial year for him." Do you mean "A new factory team contract" or "The factory team contract", etc.? It sounds unnatural the way it is phrased now.
 * 5) "He started the season by winning the Arctic Rally in January,[18] but drove his Talbot Sunbeam Lotus only in four selected World Rally Championship events." Change to "...but only drove his Talbot Sunbeam in four...".
 * 6) "Paul White commented over 20 years after the event, that he still receives questions about the rally and Henri Toivonen." This should be reworded, maybe "When Paul White commented over twenty years after the event, he said that he still receives...".
 * 7) In the death section, wikilink sore throat, flu, and fever. Also for the first quote, there is no intro sentence explaining who said it or when.
 * 8) "Drivers' eyes could not adjust their focus between the fast corners. This resulted in tunnel vision." These two sentences could probably be combined.
 * 9) "Group B cars have been described as "too fast to race"." Put the period before the quotation marks.
 * 10) "Harri Toivonen quit his racing career in 2002 and this ended the 40-year racing history in the Toivonen family." You don't have to change this if you don't think it's necessary, but another way to write it would be "Harri Toivonen quit his racing career in 2002, ending the 40-year racing history of the Toivonen family."

These are all mostly minor changes, and some are optional. I'm putting the article on hold for seven days for the changes to be made. Let me know when you're done or if you have any questions on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 06:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the review and suggestions. I think all of these have been fixed now. Prolog 15:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

GA passed
I have passed the article as a GA according to the GA criteria. Continue to improve the article, and consider eventually taking it to FA. It may need more copyediting before that, so consider getting some other editors to take a look over the article. Good job so far, and if you have the time, please consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help assist with the backlog. --Nehrams2020 20:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit needed
It seems the exact cause of death - the impact of the fall, the explosion, the fire, or a combination of all three - is unknown, so these two sentences seem contradictory, the first suggesting cause of death is unknown, the second suggesting it is known ie they burnt to death: "This incident happened within seconds and Toivonen and his co-driver, Sergio Cresto were trapped and did not have time to get out had they still been alive ... Both Toivonen and Cresto burnt to death on their seats." 217.155.195.19 11:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I changed "burnt to death on their seats" to "died in their seats", so I think it is fixed now. Thanks, Prolog 14:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Questions arising from copyedit
I saw this had been listed at the League of Copyeditors since January (!) so I've having a bash at it. It's raising a few questions as well, so I'll list those here as I go along: Prolog - your English is very good by the way, there's very little that really needs changing, 'm probably fiddling with things more than is strictly necessary ;-) 4u1e 10:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Am I right in thinking that the 1975 1000 Lakes was held only four days after Toivonen's 19th birthday? If so, did he really enter any other rallies before that one, as the article currently implies?
 * You may need to clarify the 'unofficial' FIA Cup for drivers
 * I assume that Toivonen was concentrating on his circuit racing career between his 1975 and 1977 1000 Lakes appearances: if true, it might be clearer to say so.
 * "In hopes of better results, the team partnered Toivonen with three different co-drivers during the season: Antero Lindquist, Paul White and Neil Wilson" Was this done from the start of the season? If so, the sentence should probably move earlier in the paragraph.


 * Thanks. Your copyediting has certainly made the article easier to read and less confusing already.
 * It was held August 29–31, so there is an odd sentence indeed. I don't know how I missed that. Since there is not much information available about Toivonen's early rallying days, it's best to describe the 1975 1000 Lakes as his first WRC event and leave it at that.
 * I guess it could be clarified as "the predecessor to the official drivers' world championship which was established in 1979."
 * Yes, maybe just a short addition like "while still focusing on his circuit racing career" to the part about the 1977 1000 Lakes would be enough. Although, the part about switching to rallying full time might suit better in the second paragraph.
 * Yes, agreed.
 * I'll leave editing to you for now, since you have that template up there. Prolog 14:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops, not any more: I got distracted on to Brabham BT19, and now there are some other things I really need to do today. Feel free the make the changes you suggest, or leave them and I will do them when I come back to finish going through the article. Cheers. 4u1e 14:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I made some small changes, so that's a bit more copyediting for you to do. Thanks, Prolog 23:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm back at work! ;-) Some more questions arising:
 * Why did Toivonen switch to Opel. I imagine because Talbot could not be competitive, but perhaps it should be clearer? 4u1e 11:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On a more general point, it would be good idea to review the article from start to finish to be sure that concepts are introduced at their first appearance. In particular:
 * -What is rallying?
 * -What is the significance of the WRC compared to the European, or other championships?
 * -What is the difference between rallying and circuit racing?
 * -What is Group B, and why is a Group B car 'better' than the others (which class preceded Group B, anyway?)?
 * I'm trying to do this as I go along, but although circuit racing is obviously my main area of knowledge, I've picked up a fair amount of background on rallying as well, so I'm not the ideal person to spot which bits are confusing. It might be an idea to find someone who knows nothing about this topic to read through and identify problem areas.
 * It would be good to have comparative power figures for the Manta 400, Quattro and 037 - I know it's hard to find reliable figures, but it would support the statement that the Manta was underpowered. 4u1e 11:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Manx International Rally - not a round of the World Championship? 4u1e 11:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How many rounds of the world championship did Toivonen compete in in 1983? Was is a relatively full season? 4u1e 11:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "With these results, Toivonen consolidated his reputation as one of the most talented drivers in international rallying" - That might be better expressed as a direct quote. It's likely to trigger some people's POV-o-meter! 4u1e 12:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I couldn't find a good source as to why Toivonen switched teams, which is why the article has nothing about it. Rothmans Opel Rally Team was probably a much more attractive option, since Vatanen took the 1981 title driving Rothmans Rally Team's privateer Ford Escort RS1800.
 * Yes, the article is probably a bit hard to read for someone with little knowledge about rallying. I find it pretty hard to describe the basic concepts in a way that it doesn't sound silly to myself, though. Group B was preceded by Group 4.
 * I'll try to see if I can find a source over the weekend.
 * Manx International was part of the British Open Rally Championship and the European Rally Championship. There is a short bit about it on Sport in the Isle of Man.
 * Looks like I missed this one. He competed in 5/12 rounds in 1983; three retirements, a 4th and a 6th.
 * Indeed. In fact, I was planning to remove this as unnecessary earlier, but forgot about it. This is from the book by Alan Henry, but it sounds out-of-place and I don't think we need it.
 * I don't have time to edit right now, but I'll try to clarify some of these later, unless you beat me to it. Prolog 10:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * OK - you're right, better to leave it out than to speculate (even in an informed way!)
 * I'll see what more I can do with this.
 * OK
 * OK
 * OK, thanks.
 * OK (again!) 4u1e 11:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

copyedit
I have commented out a line in the Lancia paragraph about another Lancia driver's death as it seemed irrelevant. Someone should decide whether it is relevant or not and reinstate it/delete it as appropriate. Otherwise, a pretty easy proofread, nice work everyone! Cricketgirl 12:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Cricketgirl (Do you have special cricket related powers?) 4u1e 08:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(Again) about the "Estoril myth"
I know this has been discussed above two times but I deciced to start new paragraph because those above were last replied in April 2007.

I think the "it is often reported" is not enough. In addition to what it currently says there should be something about the unclear sources and that it's often regarded as urban myth because of it being physically impossible. I'm not sure how those would fit to Wikipedia rules but I feel that the way it is currently in the article, is not right either. I know it's there just because it is mentioned so often in webpages and also magazines and books (Rallyworld and Rallycourse) from 80's but likely they're all repeating the same myth, so it is questionable. Any thoughts? Timppis (talk) 13:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is questionable, but the problem is that there doesn't seem to be a source that would look into this. Without a source, it's pretty hard not to cross the line into original research. If someone with a 1986/87 Rallyworld could verify the Rallyworld quote above by 4u1e and give the page number, that would make a good source about "unclear sources" since it conflicts reports by Sligo Weekender, MSN Cars UK, et cetera. Prolog (talk) 17:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Three sources have appeared that investigate the Estoril claim. I have added their conclusions to the article. Prolog (talk) 11:03, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Just an observation... surely Toivonen was not 'leading the championship' at the time of his accident (given that the 1986 WRC season article suggests Alen and Kankkunen would've overtaken him in the points table by the Corsica round)? I could've sworn I spotted another error in the text earlier, but can't remember what it was now. MRacer (talk) 13:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

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