Talk:Henry Adams

Type of English
Should we have american english for articles about americans? e.g. Practiced<=>practised


 * Yes, that is suggested on the FAQ: "The official policy is to use British (AKA "Commonwealth") spelling when writing about British (or Commonwealth) topics, and American for topics relating to the United States." I'll fix it. --RedJ 17 18:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Apparent misuse of the word "novel"
The "non fiction" work The Education of Henry Adams should not be referred to as a novel in this article.

Actually, it is more literary than non-fictional in the way that most historical fiction is. Adams manipulates events that happened to fit a particular bent, even making himself a third person character in his autobiography. Read an excerpt if you disagree. It is a novel.

why is there a section titled "the second law of thermodynamics"?????? 71.115.7.64 (talk) 19:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It is what it claims to be a memoir of the events that educated him. The fact that he excludes certain events or uses the third person doesn't change the genre.Nitpyck (talk) 05:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Too Many Adamses?
The last section of this article reads like an Adams Family directory, for which there is already a category. I think it would be more helpful to limit discussion of grandfathers, fathers, uncles, and brothers to a linked entry. After all, this article should be about Henry Adams. --RedJ 17 18:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Work omitted
This entry requires at least a sentence on "Mont-Saint-Michel and Chartres" -- but unfortunately I'm not the person to do it.--67.86.202.17 18:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I'll add it. . . it also has the publishing dates wrong. The private edition came out in 1904 and was publicly published in 1913. The "Education" was privately printed in 1907 and publicly released in 1918.

Marian Adams
Shouldn't there be something about his sister, Marian Adams, and the sculpture Augustus Saint-Gaudens carved for her grave? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathwhiz 29 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The statue was carved to commemorate Adams's wife, Clover, who killed herself.Lestrade (talk) 12:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Wife's name
Marian "Clover" Hooper Adams - I don't see that the article links to her.Kdammers (talk) 06:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Overlooked contribution?
I've seen credit given to Henry and his dad (the Ambassador) for keeping Britain from taking the South's side during the Civil War. This was an extremely valuable contribution, perhaps the greatest made by the diplomatic branch during the war. Student7 (talk) 12:01, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Antisemitism
Although he may have been antisemitic, it would improve this section if it was fit into his general dislike of many people and groups. I'd also like to see any proof of his belief that he "blamed them for his own feelings of alienation from modern American capitalism. He believed that Jews controlled politics, the financial world, and the newspapers." In fact he disliked the Bostonians in banking and finance from early youth, according to his memoir. He makes clear in his memoir and histories that he in no way thought the jews controlled politics, the banks and the newspapers. In fact he knew most of the people who did control those things (and in general had a low opinion of them). He states that his alienation came from his 18th century style education which made him unsuitable to fit into the new America faced by his generation and caused by the changes of new knowledge, new technologies and the civil war. Here are a few quotes from the Education of Henry Adams showing his tendency to put down nearly any group. Of the house of representatives - they are hogs and need to hit on the snout with a stick. Of senators (and while speaking of Senator Summer who he liked)-Although the Senate is much given to admiring in its members a superiority less obvious or quite invisible to outsiders. Of the British cabinet during the Civil War - Gladstone was not quite sane, Russell was verging on senility, and Palmerson had lost his nerve. Of the south- Southern secessionists were certainly unbalanced of mind- fit for treatment like other victims of hallucinations. and- From the southern cotton planters one could learn nothing but bad temper, bad manners, poker, and treason. Statements like this can be found throughout his memoir and often in his histories. Nitpyck (talk) 06:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there's no "may" about it: Henry Brooks Adams was antisemitic, full stop. I'd also say that the remarks you quote are pretty vanilla in comparison; are there quotes where he wishes for the genocide of southerners? Bostonians? Cause he seems totally comfortable with the "demise" of Jews. IronDuke  19:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What I was trying to express was that he disliked almost every group and institution. I have not read the 4 volumes of his letters but would not be surprised to read there were other groups he would have been happy to see "the demise of". And according to the quoted statement, he did want to see all bankers executed regardless of race or creed. When I wrote "may" I was going from what he had published and where there are statements that could be antisemitic or not. Yes he was antisemitic in private, but he never wrote for publication that- "blaming them for his own feelings of alienation from modern American capitalism. He believed that Jews controlled politics, the financial world, and the newspapers." And if he did believe this, one is surprised that he failed to mention these facts as something he had learned when writing about his own feelings of alienation from modern America, capitalism, politics, the financial world, and the newspapers. Nitpyck (talk) 03:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * By bankers and money lenders he clearly meant Jews. If you can find support for the idea that he advocated the genocide of other groups, I'd be happy to include it. IronDuke  03:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said I haven't read everything the man wrote professionally from the 1850's til his death in 1918 nor his letters, but I have read sections of his books showing clearly that his dislike for bankers and financiers covered all races and creeds. And I'd really like to see where he wrote that his feeling of alienation was caused by the Jews and not for the reasons he put in The Education of Henry James. I'm not coming back on this topic - all I was looking for was a little nuance - which I think would have served the article better. The statement "blamed them for his own feelings of alienation from modern American capitalism. He believed that Jews controlled politics, the financial world, and the newspapers." is not echoed in any of his major works. Nitpyck (talk) 06:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know about "modern." There are plenty of instances in the 19th century of bankers taking the money and running. Or running the bank into the ground, etc. Not a trustworthy lot back then.


 * I will take your word for it that he is anti-semitic. However horrifying that may be to modern sensitivities, I doubt that it was uncommon in 19th century America as was anti-Catholic, and anti_Irish (usually one and the same). Proably anti-Chinese, etc. People (Adames excepted) did not travel a lot and were quite parochial. Jewish people were probably anti-Goyim! Remember that this was well before the Russian immigration and there weren't a lot of Jewish people here. So the "hatred" for most people would be fairly second-hand.Student7 (talk) 02:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, no not really. It's a fascinating subject, though, and I urge those interested to study it. IronDuke  02:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose it is only natural that we describe people in light of modern prejudices but I wonder how much that is useful. While it is probably important to describe 19th century people in terms of pro- or anti-slavery, it doesn't seem productive to describe 18th century people that way since it was taken for granted then in most places.
 * While it doesn't seem reasonable to me to describe people as (say) anti-Catholic or anti-Irish in the 19th century since most were, we do identify people who were members of the "know-Nothing Party" who seemed to hate everybody - but only because they (like pro-slavery) were repudiated in the 19th century.


 * It would seem counter-productive to me to describe (say) Julius Caesar as being anti-Gallic or anti-Jewish though he doubtlessly was both, Romans generally had what we would term today, a rather narrow-minded attitude. Student7 (talk) 12:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Antisemitism is very far from "modern prejudice." There were indeed people who were anti-slavery in the 18th century -- there was a good deal of wrangling over that issue in forming the US Constitution, and the compromsies made there arguably led to the US Civil War. And we would (or ought to) identify anyone as anti-Irish, in any era, who recommended that they all be shot. And Thomas Nast is called out specifically for his anti-Catholicism, which is quite proper. Finally, Julius Caesar was, somewhat famously, very tolerant towards Jews, compared to a number of other Roman Emperors. IronDuke  13:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * May have been? He was explicitly and luridly anti-Dreyfusard. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

Wife's suicide
Is it allowable to mention that his wife, a photographer, fatally drank photographic chemicals because Henry was having an affair?Lestrade (talk) 00:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)Lestrade
 * If it's well-sourced, sure. IronDuke  01:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My question would be: did she leave a note to that effect? People can see one thing happening and another and connect the dots. But they might not be connected. I think we agree today that people commit suicide out of anger and it does sound that she might have been angry at him. Just want to be sure that "sources" have the right provocation. Student7 (talk) 12:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Doing just a quick bit of research, all the sources I see indicate that Clover Adams killed herself over grief at the death of her father. IronDuke  17:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

According to Joseph E. Persico's Franklin and Lucy, page 131, she committed suicide because Henry was having an affair with another woman.Lestrade (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)Lestrade
 * Looks good... IronDuke  19:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I am sure Persico is a fine author, but I don't see how a book about FDR's love life should be considered a source as authoritative as several biographies of Adams and the biography of his wife, none of which attribute Clover's suicide to an affair. The record suggests that he was in love with Elizabeth Cameron, but that there was never any actual sexual relationship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.154.13.66 (talk) 16:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Disorder and sorrow
In the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" section, I have removed the group of words that refer to the arrow of time. I have replaced them with the words: "energy dissipates, order becomes disorder, and the earth will eventually become uninhabitable." See this PDF. Adams was not so much concerned with the mere irreversibility of time as he was with the disheartening and pessimistic predictions that result from the concept of entropy.Lestrade (talk) 12:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Elucidation needed
In the "Second law of Thermodynamics" section it is asserted that "he seems to have misunderstood and misapplied the principle." That is an unsupported claim because there is no explanation as to why he misunderstood and misapplied the principle. In what way was it misunderstood? If he did misunderstand, what is the correct understanding of the principle?Lestrade (talk) 12:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)Lestrade
 * I deleted the following unexplained words: though he seems to have misunderstood and misapplied the principle. .Lestrade (talk) 20:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Move request

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Pages Moved  Ron h jones (Talk) 22:04, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Henry Brooks Adams → Henry Adams—The subject of this page is almost never called Henry Brooks Adams, partly because his brother was Brooks Adams; it's also how he referred to himself. In addition, the primary meaning of Henry Adams is this man, the author of The Virgin and the Dynamo, the History of the United States, and The Education of Henry Adams. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Henry Adams → Henry Adams (disambiguation)
 * Support per nom. This article is far more searched for than any other Henry Adams and most of the traffic is going through the dab page unnecessarily. This article was at Henry Adams until 2007 and should not have been moved. Station1 (talk) 00:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support stats.grok.se statistics confirm PMAnderson's assertion that this is the primary topic. Ucucha 13:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Unclarity

 * He published The Education of Henry Adams in 1907, in a small private edition for selected friends. For Adams, the Virgin Mary was a symbol of the best of the old world, as the dynamo was a representative of modernity. It was only following Adams's death that The Education was made available to the general public, ......

If one hasn't read The Education of Henry Adams, the second sentence of this paragraph is a non sequitur. Even if one has, it's a choppy jumping from topic to topic. I've read enough of that book to know that he talks about the Virgin and the Dynamo in it -- but not enough to know exactly how this paragraph needs to be fixed to make it more coherent. --Jim Henry (talk) 20:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Classification
Why is Henry B. Adams on this list? I thought this was a list of American Conspiracy Theorists? After reading the article I don't see where Adams was a conspiracy theorist at all. Mumof9 (talk) 16:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Uncaptioned pic
In the section headed Troubled mental health of his wife, Clover, and her suicide, there is a picture of a statue with no caption. Valetude (talk) 19:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Useful source for expanding on his problematic personality traits
A well-reviewed biography was recently released; the NYT review has some useful points of summary that would be beneficial to building out this article by those who are contributing to it regularly:

There are many quotes in it.


 * What he became instead was one of the great intellectuals of the Gilded Age, lauded for his elegant works of history, trenchant political critiques and essays bristling with aesthetic sophistication, none of which made him happy. “The Last American Aristocrat,” a marvelous new biography by David S. Brown, reveals how dynastic burden shaped the personality and career of the brilliant, bitter and thoroughly unlikable man who brought the prominence of the Adams family, and expectations for the endurance of political legacies, to an ignominious end. In the process it provides a compelling account of America’s transformation in the space of one man’s lifetime, from a Republic where the Adams name meant everything, to an industrialized behemoth that had left him behind.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/24/books/review/the-last-american-aristocrat-henry-adams-david-s-brown.html

Passing it along. --Bobak (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks. To be clear, the quote you gave above is from the NYT review, written by Amy Greenberg, not from the book itself. The book would seem to be the more interesting source, rather than the review. I've ordered a copy, and will report back after I've had time to read it. Eleuther (talk) 09:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Great! But yeah, that's what I said "the NYT review has some useful points of summary." -- Bobak (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Amazon lost my order, and on mature thought, I've decided not to reorder until the price comes down a lot, based on what I was able to read in the Amazon preview. So don't expect anything more from me here, for now. Eleuther (talk) 13:56, 8 December 2020 (UTC)