Talk:Henry Cowell/Archive 1

Latin American connections
Could someone add something about how Cowell was an important link to the contemporary composers of Latin America (Chavez, Roldan, et al.), via the Pan American Association of Composers? Badagnani 19:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Cowell's book on Ives
There's a more recent edition of Cowell's "Charles Ives and His Music," from Da Capo Press, but online sources disagree as to whether it's 1981 or 1983 (of course, it's possibly both). Anyone have a copy? —DCGeist 17:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Anger Dance note
While the note on this piece is sufficiently long that the idea of moving it out into an entry of its own might be entertained, Anger Dance simply has nowhere near sufficient significance in musical history to merit a specific article. On the other hand, Cowell's description of its inspiration is revealing of his psychology and the question of just how proto-minimalist the piece raises questions most interesting in the context of his biography. The information in the note, I believe, is thus most useful in its present location. —DCGeist 06:44, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Endnote & external link auto-numbering sequence conflict
As stated in the history, I went in and hand numbered the inline external links as a separate sequence from the endnote numbering sequence. (It was doing fine through callout 1 [endnote], callout 2 [endnote], callout 3 [external link], callout 4 [endnote]...oops! Pops down to the right endnote text...but numbered 3.) My clumsy temporary solution would necessitate re-hand-numbering in the event anyone adds any more external links in the future. On the other hand, I can't stand the current Wikipedia:Footnote3 guideline for articles with both endnotes and external links--that a text fragment serve as the callout for each external link. I think it's visually klutzy and can severely disrupt the flow of reading. Any opinions on that? And what do you think's the best solution? Is it possible to restore the autonumbering of the external links and change to an older endnoting method that's somehow compatible (hand numbering the endnotes, for instance, though not a perfect solution, would be more practicable than my stopgap)? —DCGeist 09:50, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It was suggested that either degree marks or arrows be used as the callouts for all the inline external links. A truly elegant solution! By their very nature, such links cry out for neither number sequencing nor text fragments. Though the arrows occupy a bit more space than degree marks, they seems more logical and appropriate. I'm very happy with this solution--please discuss what you think of it. —DCGeist 22:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it looks weird but may be the best solution if there are numbering problems the other way. All in all, Wikipedia is eminently user-friendly and easy to learn, footnoting being one of the only exceptions.

Earlier tone cluster guy?
Apparently, from one of the recent Cowell biographies (maybe the "Bohemian"), there was a young American pianist in the early 20th century (maybe the teens?) who achieved some renown for his original cluster-type piano solos. Cowell supposedly saw him play and was impressed; he introduced himself and showed the guy one of his early piano pieces and the guy said Cowell had promise or something. This guy (or his music) has essentially been forgotten but may represent an important precedent to Cowell's brash and modernist style of pianism. Anybody know who this was? Badagnani 06:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Sounds like Leo OrnsteinKylegann 19:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Monograph removed from bibliography
I removed the following monograph (my own) - *Gann, Kyle (1993). The Overtone Series's Influence in American Music. Brooklyn, N.Y.: Brooklyn College Institute for Studies in American Music - because it never appeared. It was scheduled to, and got listed in various places, but the series closed before it could be published - and even before I finished writing it.Kylegann 19:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

This article needs more!
I came here because I wanted to see if there was a mention/list of prominent composers who had Cowell for a teacher, and I was surprised to see nothing about his teaching career, not even a mention. While what is in the article is very good, it seems to me to be rather unfocused, with some rather large gaps in coverage. -- Dmz5 *Edits**Talk* 07:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * D-u-u-u-d-e!! Before critiquing the article, try reading the article. Everyone who actually does that (after noticing, of course, that Cowell is identified as a "teacher" in both the lead sentence and infobox), finds this:


 * During this era, Cowell also spread the ultra-modernists' experimental creed as a highly regarded teacher of composition and theory—among his many students were George Gershwin, Lou Harrison, who said he thought of Cowell as "the mentor of mentors," and John Cage, who proclaimed Cowell "the open sesame for new music in America."


 * and this:


 * [Cowell] went on to investigate Indian classical music and, in the late 1920s, began teaching courses in world music at schools in California and New York—[Lou] Harrison's tutelage under Cowell would begin when he enrolled in one such course in San Francisco.


 * and this:


 * [H]e would spend the next four years in San Quentin State Prison. There he taught fellow inmates....


 * and this:


 * Cowell resumed teaching—Burt Bacharach was one of his postwar students....


 * I'd love to hear about these "large gaps in coverage," but maybe first figure out who's really "unfocused."—DCGeist 09:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As Vman737 said on my talk page, where this was rather unnecessarily reposted, I am not criticizing you or your contributions. The article is unfocused, from the lead right to the references section.  It's also rather puffy.  I was remiss in stating that there are no mentions of his teaching, I should have said there are no substantive mentions of his teaching.  Please take unwanted criticism as a chance to improve the article (which, as I noted, has not been substantially edited in a while) rather than defending its present state.-- Dmz5  *Edits**Talk* 16:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * SOFIXIT. The criticism was and continues to be quite non-specific (and incorrect in the only area in which it was specific).  When you ask for more details, do you mean at which institutions he taught, what were the names of the courses, etc.?  If so, then say that.  The names of several of the students are already given.  Badagnani 16:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly I don't want to, the topic doesn't particularly interest me. There is a place on wikipedia for outside comments.  If anyone wants to nominate this for FA anytime in the near future, you will get pleeeenty of specific criticism.  I'm sorry if you think this is unwarranted hit-and-run criticism, but there you go.-- Dmz5  *Edits**Talk* 16:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay here's a specific bit of criticism that comes from the project page. Check out the suggested structure there: it breaks articles down into biography, style and influence, legacy, list of notable works, etc.  I suppose you could say my general complaint about this article relates to the fact that all of the info is presented essentially chronologically, in relatively uncontextualized bits and pieces, which contributes to what I (and apparently Vman737) feel is the ambling nature of the text.  Also, check out WP:LEAD.-- Dmz5  *Edits**Talk* 16:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Late in the debate, but whatever. I like this article. Chronological organization has one big advantage: it's makes it much easier for subsequent editors to add their bitty-bits. Since this is a wiki, chronology reduces chaotic piling on of information somewhat. 217.162.229.128 05:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Columbia University
Irwin Swack apparently studied with Cowell at Columbia University. Could Cowell's tenure at CU be mentioned in the article? Badagnani (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Certainly, if we can source when he actually taught regularly there, as opposed to giving the occasional lecture. Unfortunately, the Hicks biography gives very little detail on this. All it makes clear, in fact, is that he gave special lectures at Columbia in 1941 and taught three courses there in 1951–52. It seems likely that he taught there at other times, but I've yet to establish when. Are you quite certain he taught Swack in the 1930s, rather than after his release from prison in the 1940s or 1950s?—DCGeist (talk) 03:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Professor tenures, especially for non-full-time professors, can be maddeningly difficult to track down. Institutional memory can be short, and often records just aren't kept. Badagnani (talk) 03:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Right. I've looked up Swack's CV, and it looks there's no way he studied with Cowell before the 1940s at the earliest. Swack received his bachelor's from the Cleveland Institute of Music in 1930. His Columbia Ph.D. was awarded in 1954. I'll move his name to the appropriate spot.—DCGeist (talk) 04:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

CIM's alumni newsletter says he got his B.M. there in 1939. Badagnani (talk) 05:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, my typo. I found a composer CV book that gives 1940. At any rate, I can't find any record of Cowell teaching there. It seems quite likely the connection was made at Columbia in the early 1950s.—DCGeist (talk) 05:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It's very gratifying to "reunite" composition students with their teachers, and vice versa, via the links on our project--something that isn't easy to find in conventional print sources. Badagnani (talk) 05:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:56, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

To add
A member of the "American Five." Badagnani (talk) 05:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Student to add
Alan Stout (composer). Not sure where or when Stout studied with him. Badagnani (talk) 08:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but it has a number of defects. Notable ones include a lack of a complete works list, and only very minimal mention of his personal life. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should go here or on my talk page.  Magic ♪piano 21:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

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Ives's Alleged Homophobia
"...although a few, including Ives, broke contact with him" - This is not true. The article “The Cowell-Ives Relationship: A New Look at Cowell’s Prison Years,” by Leta Miller and Rob Collins, in American Music (Vol. 23, No. 4 (Winter, 2005), pp. 473-492) disproves this. On May 29, 1937, Cowell, in San Quentin, received a letter from Ives saying: "I’ve started to write you a few times or more, but didn’t because I didn’t know what to write or say or what to think or do – and I don’t now – so I’ll shut up! At least I can do all I can & I will to help New M[usic] Editions keep going as well as possible and as you would want… I do hope you can keep well & that things will go well in the future." I saw this letter in 1997 in an exhibition at Lincoln Center at the Cowell centennial conference. It was apparently Ives's wife Harmony who cut off relations with Cowell, not wanting her husband's name to be sullied by controversy. In this period Ives wrote most of his letters through his wife because of his diabetes-related health problems, but this was a rare letter in Ives's own hand. See https://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/2010/09/homophobia_case_against_ives_c.html I hope someone will remove this lamentable calumny, which has been repeated far too often. Kylegann (talk) 04:57, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * @Kylegann please go ahead and update with the source! --Eezurr (talk) 16:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

"Diaspora" is the wrong word
"Compositions" section:

"Cowell wrote in a very wide diaspora of styles"

Per online dictionary, a diaspora is the dispersion of any people from their original homeland. It does not mean anything like range or variety. Edit needed with author's intent in mind. 73.241.67.220 (talk) 01:16, 4 July 2022 (UTC)