Talk:Heracleum (plant)

Redirect added
I created Golpar as redirect to this article in accord with Iranica's identification of Golpar with Heracleum. If there is a more specific article please feel to change the redirect. I may also use that source to add information about the use of golpar in Persian food. The Behnam 04:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Redirect was subsequently changed to Heracleum persicum. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Page move
I moved the page from "Hogweed" to "Heracleum (plant)". (Heracleum is a disambiguation page.) My reasons were: Peter coxhead (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:Plants policy is to prefer the scientific name unless there are very good reasons to the contrary (e.g. it's the name of a common food).
 * "Hogweed" is not part of the common name of all species of Heracleum. Common names for white umbellifers (which are easily confused) are very variable (e.g. whereas in most parts of England H. sphondylium seems to be called "hogweed", in others it is called "cow parsley", which is elsewhere the name for Anthriscus sylvestris).
 * It is particularly important to be very precise about the identification of white umbellifers, since some are highly poisonous (e.g. hemlock), some are irritants (e.g. giant hogweed), whereas others are edible. Using common names carries a greater risk of confusion than using scientific names.

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Common Names
Both Heracleum sphondylium and Heracleum maximum are referred to as cow parsnip in the literature. Now I see that Heracleum sibiricum is referred to cow parsnip as well. This makes it difficult to write about these species in the same article or paper.

I've seen the common names European cow-parsnip and American cow-parsnip for H. sphondylium and H. maximum (resp.) but I have not seen a common name for H. sibiricum (although I may be missing something). Let me propose the obvious set of common names:


 * Heracleum sphondylium, European cow parsnip
 * Heracleum maximum, American cow parsnip (as in "North America")
 * Heracleum sibiricum, Siberian cow parsnip

If the context is understood, the unqualified name cow parsnip will suffice of course, and so the above naming scheme shouldn't break current usage.

Thoughts?

Tom Scavo (talk) 17:55, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * This is the universal problem of using common names. Provided articles are at their scientific names, common names can then be redirects or disambig pages. Redirects where that is a unequivocal unique common name for a species, and a disambig where one common name may reference several species. Where several common names reference a single species, that is always dealt with within the relevant article. Referring to species in article and papers is done by a link to the article3 name which should always be the scientific name (except for a very few food and similar plants where common name trumps scientific name such as Carrot, Parsnip or Potato). I think that it is wholly wrong for editors in Wikipedia to propose common names to use in articles. Common names can only be names in common usage and not what Wikipedia has decided should be common names.  Velella  Velella Talk  18:31, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I was expecting that reply, and I agree, but please see the bulleted list in section "Similar species" in the Heracleum mantegazzianum topic. There the common name cow parsnip refers to three different species (and, no, I didn't make that up). What to do in a case like that? Tom Scavo (talk) 19:34, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I suspect that going back to reputable sources might resolve at least some of these issues. As an example, Stace only lists "Hogweed" as a common name for H. sphondylium and that is the only common name that I know for it - the others may be misunderstandings, misidentification or pure fabrication. As a start, if we removed all common names that wren't sourced and not in the three most reputable floras of the particular country/ Area, that might be a start. I can do UK and Ireland (and thus Europe since there are almost no other English common names elsewhere in Europe) but I can't pretend to be able to identify the best US or Canadian sources. Thankfully there is little carry-over to NZ and Australia, and where it does occur, names from the old country still tend to be retained.  Velella  Velella Talk  19:49, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Not long ago, Heracleum sibiricum and Heracleum maximum were known as Heracleum sphondylium ssp. sibiricum and Heracleum sphondylium var. lanatum (which means the literature is filled with "ghost" species, btw), so it's not surprising that all three species are known as cow parsnip. The solution to this conundrum is not in the past, I'm afraid. Tom Scavo (talk) 20:57, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Biennial species?
The introduction to this article claims that "Heracleum is a genus...of biennial and perennial herbs" but I can find no evidence of a biennial species in the genus. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance. Tom Scavo (talk) 12:37, 21 September 2018 (UTC)