Talk:Heracleum maximum

Names
I removed the link to a Swedish page, because that is about a different species, H. sibiricum, also sometimes called the Cow Parsnip - but H. maximum seems to have first claim on that name. seglea 07:42, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I added the "Pushki" designation because while growing up in Alaska, that is what it was commonly called, although the Cow Parsnip designation was used as well. I believe "Pushki" comes from the Russian term for the plant. If you do a Google search for "Pushki" you will find several sources for this designation, such as  or  Rabidwolfe 01:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear - it's spelled "Pushki" NOT "Puchki." In addition to the links above, which spell it "Pushki," do a Google search. "Puchki" gets you nothing about Cow Parsnip on the first page of results, but Pushki gets you several web pages about this plant.  As I am from Alaska, I always saw and heard it spelled and pronounced as "Pushki." Rabidwolfe (talk) 18:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Semi-slang for it adds a t in the middle -- we Ninilchikans pronounce it more similar to "Putchki". Man, I am SOOO glad to finally know the English name for this species.  27 years and I've never been able to explain to people the plant.  I'm immune to the phototoxins and often would "fight them" as "makeshift ninjas" as a kid, so they were a giant part of my childhood in Alaska.  That being said, we Ninilchikans also use the term "Nuzhnik" for outhouse, which we believe originated in Ninilchik as slang.  -- 21:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Somarinoa (talk • contribs)

Confusing 'Similar Species' Section
Confusing 'Similar Species' Section Every paragraph previous to the 'Similar Species' section uses the singular in reference to Cow Parsnip, then it suddenly starts talking about "these plants" in relation to each other as part of a group; it is very confusing, and should be clarified especially since it is a section dealing with similar, poisonous plants. I do not need to know how to identify Poison Hemlock on the Cow Parsnip page when a link to the Poison Hemlock page would suffice. (Malestrom (talk) 23:25, 28 November 2009 (UTC))
 * A late reply, but I have just trimmed that section way down. There was a lot of irrelevant material that seems to have just been copy/pasted from some other article. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:20, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Classification
The first paragraph ends with "The classification given here follows ITIS." ITIS has, apparently recently, changed its classification. This plant is now named Heracleum sphondylium ssp. montanum (Schleich. ex Gaudin) Briq. GRIN also uses this name. If this change is made here it should also be made on the Common Hogweed page, which lists eight subspecies, not including montanum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnvalo (talk • contribs) 13:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Plant List is promising an update shortly. It will be interesting to see what it makes of this. In the old (current) version, this name is listed as "unresolved". Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Furanocoumarins
The current version of the document implies that (the angular furanocoumarin) angelicin acts as a photosensitizing agent but no evidence is given. (I doubt that angelicin can, by itself, induce phytophotodermatitis.) Also, there is insufficient evidence that Heracleum maximum contains angelicin or any other furanocoumarin for that matter. I will mark the passage as "citation needed" until these issues have been resolved. Tom Scavo (talk) 21:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The current version of the document is still lacking IMO. AFAIK there is no evidence that angelicin induces phytophotodermatitis (PPD) in any species. OTOH, xanthotoxin does induce PPD in other species but AFAICT there is no evidence cited that it does so in this species. For these reasons, I've removed the references to xanthotoxin and angelicin from this article. IMO, one or more additional citations are needed to establish these claims. Tom Scavo (talk) 13:34, 18 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The content for that passage was summarized from the referenced material, which specifically discusses the composition and effects of H. maximum (syn. H. lanatum for the Canadian article). —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 13:47, 18 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The first two articles ( [ Bahadori et al. 2016 ] and [ O'Neill et al. 2013 ] ) do not support the claims made. The third citation ( [ Camm et al. 1976 ] ) is behind a paywall so I can't confirm at the moment. I'll come back to this once I've read the article. Tom Scavo (talk) 16:06, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Of the furanocoumarins listed, I can provide evidence that angelicin, pimpinellin, isopimpinellin, and isobergapten do not induce phytophotodermatitis (PPD). (In general, none of the angular furanocoumarins induce PPD, only a few of the linear furanocoumarins are involved, mainly psoralen, bergapten, and xanthotoxin.) Instead of listing all furanocoumarins produced by this species, it would be better to narrow the list to causal agents only. FWIW, the evidence I currently have suggests that bergapten is the primary causal agent in this species. Tom Scavo (talk) 20:48, 18 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Separating the constituents causing PPD from those with other known properties/uses sounds reasonable enough to me! —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 22:11, 18 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Okay, good. However, I'm still looking for a solid reference that positively identifies the primary causal agent. If you find something, let me know.


 * As I recall, many of these furocoumarins cause this reaction about 15 to 20 minutes after absorption into skin, and then prolonged exposure to UVA light between 320 and 380nm (most acutely from topical exposure, as it doesn't digest well). The most severe reactions come from bergaptens and xanthotoxins found in citrus plants like limes and oranges. However, the culprit I think you're looking for is the psoralens, which is found in high quantities in cow parsnip and similar plants, especially in the fall when the plant goes to seed. I believe the book Dermatology can clarify this for you. I hope that helps. Zaereth (talk) 01:43, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I believe the primary furanocoumarins responsible for PPD in Heracleum species are bergapten and/or xanthotoxin. Psoralen is more phototoxic than either of those but it is only found in appreciable quantities in fig leaves and a few other species. In any case, can you give a more precise reference? What book are you referring to? Thanks. Tom Scavo (talk) 16:32, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The book is called Dermatology by Jean L. Bolognia, Joseph L. Jorizzo, Ronald P. Rapini, published by Elsevier in 2003, on page 281--283. To quote, "Furocoumarins (psoralens and angelicins) are most common agents. Limes, celery, and rue the most common cause.... Plants of the family Apiaceae [formerly Umbelliferae] cause more phytophotodermatitis than plants of any other family. (Table 18.6)... Once introduced into a new area, Heracleum species tend to grow out of control. The black seeds and leaves contain the highest concentrations of psoralens. The greatest threat from Heracleum occurs in the autumn when weather favors the development of many seeds.... Xanthotoxin (8-MOP) is the most effective photosensitizer in limes, and is more than ten times more plentiful in the rind as in the pulp." The latter leading to colorful names like "margarita-itis" or "Corona-itis". However, according to the book, "Phototoxicity following the ingestion of naturally occurring psoralens is rare." This book may or may not be available on google books, or possible as an e-book, otherwise you may need to look it up in a library. I hope that helps you in your research. Zaereth (talk) 23:22, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Edibility
On 19 June 2019, a bold new claim (with citation) was introduced into the document, namely, that the "thick flower stems, coming into season in early summer, can be peeled and eaten raw or cooked." This claim contradicts a separate claim (also with citation) that "pregnant [native american] women were warned away from the flower bud stalks." Since H. maximum is known to contain furanocoumarins that cause phytophotodermatitis, I believe an additional citation is needed to support this new claim.

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cow parsnip (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 06:36, 23 May 2022 (UTC)