Talk:Heraldic clan

Page merge
I see that the former Polish clans page was merged into here. And interesting article, but unfortunately unsupported by references. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest to intermix this article with "Polish heraldry", removing overlaps, with Heraldic family being a sub-article. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

"Clan of..."
The names of Scottish clans, e.g. "Clan Donald", do not contain the preposition "of"? Why, on Wikipedia, do the names of  "Polish clans", e.g., "Clan of Ostoja"?

It should be simply "Clan Ostoja".

I propose that "of" be deleted, on Wikipedia, from the names of "Polish clans".

I further suggest that the individual Polish "clans" be renamed to "heraldic families", consistent with the title of the present article. As this article explains, "Membership in a Polish clan does not always connote consanguinity or even territoriality, as do[es membership in a] Scottish clan... For this reason, rather than being parallel to the Scottish-clan model, the Polish clan system may be considered as being more akin to the Scandinavian ætt and the Germanic sippia."

Thus, use of the Scottish term "clan" is misleading, and it should be replaced by "heraldic family", which is an accurate rendering of the Polish term, "ród herbowy".

"Clan of Ostoja", for example, would then be rendered as "Heraldic Family Ostoja". Nihil novi (talk) 07:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Negative. Polish Clans are not the same as Scottish, they are rather unique and they can differ a lot from each other when talking about origin. This is what clan DNA projects are about. Proposed names like "Clan Ostoja" is correct but the name of the article could also be "Clan of...", nothing wrong with that. "Clan of..." is also officially used. Polish Clan was not tied to a certain territory in the same way as a Scottish clan. However, they lived in groups. Members moving from Lesser Poland to for example Pomerania, joined another Clan group - in Clan of Ostoja all families except one. Renaming to "Heraldic families"...there is no usage of "Heraldyczna rodzina", it would rather be "Heraldic Clan" that evolved from "Clan" mostly during Partition time. Also, it is necessary to understand what "Heraldic Clan" is. It is not as stated here scanidinavian "ätt". Ätt refer in most to noble family, bloodline on fathers side. "Heraldic family" is not accurate rendering of the Polish term "ród herbowy". This is not a place to invent own names and for own interpretation. There is no single source that support ussage of term "Herladic family". Renaming "Clan of Ostoja" to "Heraldic Family Ostoja" is therefore complitely wrong. No support for that. camdan (talk) 09:30, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

"Heraldic family" vs. "heraldic clan"
Membership in a Scottish or other kind of clan was not a mark of noble status. Any Scot might—and generally did—belong to a clan.

By contrast, membership in a Polish or, later, Polish-Lithuanian heraldic family ("herb") was a mark of noble status that was shared with only some 10% of the general population of the country.

Therefore I think we shouldn't confuse things by referring to a Polish "heraldic family" ("herb"), e.g., "heraldic family Ostoja", as a "clan", e.g., "clan Ostoja".

I therefore propose that, in the article "Heraldic family", we delete the expression "heraldic clan" as a synonym for "heraldic family"; and that each heraldic family be called a "heraldic family", e.g., "heraldic family Ostoja" (rather than "clan Ostoja").

Nihil novi (talk) 00:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Please don't start the same discussion in numerous places. I've replied at WT:POLAND. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:00, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Screwed up article
Somebody created a confusion by changing the article content. Heralidic family was a unique Polish concept in Europe and page move was meaningless. the term :Polish heraldic families" implies thre we non-polish heraaldic families, which is not true. I am going to undo inappropriate change of the lede. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Dear >t, this is an encyclopaedia and the majority of readers are neither Polish nor Polish speakers, therefore it is helpful for the interested reader to know that the subject concerns Polish heraldry. It would be helpful not to re-introduce poor English grammar after it has been corrected. Regards, --Po Kadzieli (talk) 11:15, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Please follow wikipedia rules of renaming contested article titles. Yes "Heraldic family" concerns Poland, just like Recovered Territories, General Government, Main Political Council, and thousands more. We complicate article titles only in certain circumstanes, see policy WP:TITLE. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:31, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Please keep in mind that poor grammar is not the reason to delete significant referenced information as you did in your previous edit. Thank you for article improvement, though. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:32, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

"Noble titles were absent in Poland"
This section contains useful material but is badly in need of editing for clarity. Nihil novi (talk) 07:54, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I wonder if the title "Noble titles were absent in Poland" is correct. Its old narration and only partly true. Maybe simple "Noble titles in Poland"? Reason of that is that there where old titles in Poland that was inherited until it become forbidden. Its very interesting section although in what way is it connected to subject "Heraldic Clan"? camdan (talk) 23:26, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Discussion?
Hello t. If it's patently a 'war of editions' what is there further to say? Regards, --Po Kadzieli (talk) 15:55, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Where do you see war? - üser:Altenmann >t 05:47, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 9 August 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to Heraldic clan per overwhelming consensus. No such user (talk) 09:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Heraldic family → Polish clans – Rename back to "Polish clans" as it was before and more correct. There is no source or publication that ever use "Heraldic family", not even in Polish since it would be translated into "Heraldic clan". The article is of very poor quality and missleading, sources cannot be concidered as reliable or of any value. This article deserve to be delated since it do more harm than good. However, it is possible to improve or completely rewrite adding recent sources and publications on subject. If so, article name should be proper because nobody understand what "Heraldic family" is, since such term simply does not exist. It is possible to use term "Heraldic Clan" inside the article and explain its origin camdan (talk) 10:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 13:52, 17 August 2016 (UTC)


 * oppose Nominator' isgnorance is not the reason to move into a even more confusing translation. The term "heraldic familit" does exist even in English parlance, as google book search shows (quotes: " heraldic family of Gassaway", " Baldwins of Aston Clinton descended from any heraldic family of the name", "This is a concept of a "feudal clan" (rod feodalny), different both from the heraldic family or — using Tymieniecki's terminology — from the "heraldic clan" and from the "nest-clan." ", etc.), whatever it may mean. The term "clan" is an incorrect anglocentric translation of "rod herbowy"/"rod heraldyczny", which is a unique Polish phenomenon. Contrary to "clan", heraldic family does not claim common descent. The poor quality of article simply means insufficient wikipedians to work. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:09, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Of course that You will oppose, You created this article. It does not matter if term "Heraldic family" exist in English language, it does not exist refering to Polish noble families. Definition of family means that people are blood related. Using "family" to describe a Clan where families are just partly blood related is just completely wrong. Family need bloodline. "Heraldic bloodline"? To be able to apply a name, it is necessary to have good knowledge about Polish history, heraldry and genealogy. Specially because all the Clans are different! For ex. You can apply term "House of Odrowąż" on but You can not do the same with Ostoja and call it "House of Ostoja". In that way, Your example of "Heraldic family of Gassaway" is of no value here. You cant apply this on Polish nobility. Profesor Tymieniecki? You refere to 80 years old publications? And "nest-clan"? Completely wrong narration. You mean "family nest". Clans never had a nest! I think You refer to the "source" "Tworzenie się polskich rodów heraldycznych", by Rola - Stężycki, Instytut Genealogii and art. from 2004. Here You touch the point. "Ród" means both family and clan. "Ród Odrowążów" in 12th or 13th century refer to family Odrowąż because its one blood related family (ref. Rola-Stężycki: Gniazdo rodowe rodziny Bonieckich. Same term "Ród Odrowążów" in 17th century refer to "Clan of Odrowąż" and not family because not all families are blood related. Then, when You see modern publication You can note that "Ród" refer to both single family and to clan. So when come to pl. term "Ród Heraldyczny" it does not refer to single family but to families and thats clan. So it would be "Heraldic clan", not "Heraldic family"

Polish dictionary for Klan (http://sjp.pwn.pl/slowniki/klan.html):

1. «skonsolidowana, wielopokoleniowa rodzina» - this is for Polish families, bloodrelated since generations 2. «hermetyczna grupa ludzi wzajemnie się popierających» - Hermetic group of people that support each other 3. «w Irlandii i Szkocji: patriarchalna wspólnota rodowa z silną władzą naczelnika» - In Ireland and Scottland...

Second apply on Polish Clans perfectly. Why? I give two simple examples. House of Odrowąż is a family with family nest, not a Clan. In 14th and 15th century, family members created names that refer to their properties and around year 1500 there is now have a family with almost 100 different names - still a family. Family adopt some members through marriage or of some other reason and its not just family anymore, it turned to a Clan. As in all the Clans, You see that members live in groups, always ready to support each other military, or ecomnomically - now You have "Hermetic group of people that support each other". You have a Clan, not family! Much later, during Partitions of Poland lot of families that where not Clan members, started to use Odrowąż CoA. Many reasons but the most important is that Clan is not a Clan anymore but "Heraldic Clan". Heraldic, because only thing what relate some families with the clan is the CoA.

Second example is Ostoja where Ostoja is a Battle Cry for military group, maybe 30-40 knights. So its not a family. Is it a Clan? Yes, because like in Clan of Odrowąż, families settled down in groups making very similar Clan structure. Those 30-40 families become over 150 families with different names after their properties. in 15th century, Clan invited several families of Russian origin, all from Novgorod and they joined the Clan, settled down in Lithuania. Question now, is it still a Clan or is it now "Heraldic Clan"? Yes it is still a clan, Russian or Ruthenian group closely cooperated with other Clan groups. Then from the time of partition, we see some 80 families that have no connection to the Clan, only that documents tell that they sign with Ostoja CoA. Now its clearly "Heraldic Clan". In almost all the cases where some families sign a CoA without having any earlier connection to the Clan, there is a question of mistake or falsery. camdan (talk) 23:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The term "clan" is commonly and correctly used to translate the Polish term "ród". Which is not the same as "ród herbowy"/"herbowni". I am pretty much sure that people not very versed in Polish heraldry may fail to see the distinction, but there is. I you wrote a bit more in User_talk:Piotrus, which is historically on my watch list. I am not an expert in heraldry and not sure what would be the correct title of this article, but "Polish clans" in the correct rendering for "Rody polskie", which is not what the article speaks about, therefore at the moment I would rather oppose the move. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:01, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * But Polish clans is redidected here to what is now called "Heraldic family"! And if ród = clan, then "ród herbowy" would be "CoA clan"? I would rahter think that in Poland we use commonly "ród heraldyczny" = "Heraldic clan" and not "Heraldic family". camdan (talk) 08:32, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: move to heraldic clan. The major problem is that that the Polish term is nowhere defined, and what we have here - and on Polish Wikipedia - seems to be very much WP:OR. Debating what is the English name of this is pointless in the case we cannot even find a single, reliable definition of the term "herbowni" or "ród herbowy". If anyone can find it, please post it here. In the meantime, I'll nominate Polish Wikipedia article for deletion. Maybe it will spark a discussion that will produce some sources. Upon further research, I decided not to AfD this, the concept is notable, if the sources are sparse. Norman Davies does discuss it in his God's Playground - see part 1, around p.161. He uses the word clan, or heraldic clan, I would therefore suggest renaming this article to heraldic clan, with a note in the lead based on Davies that the clan (ród) in this context should not be confused with kinship (blood ties). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:01, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see one problem here. This article is redirected from the art. Polish clans. This include both clans and heraldic clans. In such case, redirections should be removed and this art would be only about "heraldic clan" defining what it means. Or, rename to Polish clans include both, starting from begining, showing the "evolution". Also, I copy this discussion to WikiProject Heraldry, all welcome to join discussion to reach consensus on several different questions. camdan (talk) 14:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: From Polish Nobility Association, by head of Warsaw branch Adam Pszczolkowski. Term "Herladic family" is wrong, correct is "Heraldic clan". Seems that case is closed. Only question that remain: Move to "Heraldic clan" and remove redirection here from "Polish Clans"...or...rename to "Polish Clans" and include "Heraldic clan" as part of the article. Suggestions? camdan (talk) 16:19, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support move to Heraldic clan, for the sake of consensus, although I see nothing wrong with translation of "rody heralyczne" as "heraldic families". "Polish clans" may be an article about ród and include section about "ród herbowy" per WP:Summary style, since the concepts are closely related. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:30, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree with Altenmann. camdan (talk) 19:55, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Assuming User:Staszek Lem will agree with move to "heraldic clan", we will have consensus on this. I think Polish Clans can remain as a redirect here, we often allow semi-correct redirects to remain. I see no problem leaving heraldic family and Polish clans as redirects to this. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:22, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree. In fact, after a good term was suggested (why didn't I think about this before when writing my previous post? :-, I have immediately found a great book by Robert I. Frost which makes a clear distinction between Polish "clans" and "heraldic clans", 63, quoting: "Clans lived on in their names, as the basis of the heraldic clans". At the same time the book makes a clear distinction between "clan" and "noble family"/"magnate family" (i.e., "House"), the former being applied to times before consolidation of the concept of "szlachta". In other words, the translation of the Polish term "ród" as "clan" is not that clean-cut. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:51, 11 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Robert I. Frost refer to Stanislaw Kutrzeba and very old publications (before WWII). Kutrzeba is of course excellent, he collected huge amount of Court documents but not all of his conclusions are of value today. But its at least good reference! I see similar narration in work of Manteuffel and Gorecki. The terms "House of...", "Clan" and "Heraldic Clan" need further discussion - its not that easy if we wish to apply in correct way. I hope that we continue this discussion on WikiProject Heraldry. Necessary with more modern narration. camdan (talk) 15:40, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * (Not so) very old publications about even older times are quite OK. (Beware of chronological snobbery). Staszek Lem (talk) 21:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I dont say that old publicaitons are bad but science move forward, does it not?.Ok, I refer to the source You give and to section with citation 4. I quote: The szlachta's roots lay deep lay deep in tribal era. Here no one claim anything else. Then, It emerged from kinship groups or Clans (rody) that formed the basis of polish social elite from 12th to 14th century. Ok, no one would disagree. Continuing - Although the details are obscure, it is clear that many clans provided a from of local organization.... Mind word "obscure" and "many" - many does not mean all. Then how many? And, although details are unclear...followed by it is clear. Last sentence: Landed property belonged to the clan, and was shared out among its male members. True in some cases but not all. Then true in how many cases? Since it is common knowkledge that Casimir I the Restorer was the one that introduced system of paying knights and mercenaries in land? Not clans but knights. And istead of "Landed property belonged to the Clan" its more "Landed property belonged to a House" - in pl "Dom". Here the older publications the better so look at Bartosz Paprocki 1584. Here You see "Dom" instead of "Clan" (Rod). Dom Grzymalitow, Rod Pogorzelski. camdan (talk) 10:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirecting here or to "Polish heraldry" since topic is linked to heraldic issues. Unless someone want to work on that article - which I see as gigantic work. Or, make a stub and refere to both "Heraldic clan" and "Polish heraldry"? camdan (talk) 15:40, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Not purely heraldic. "Heraldic clan" is a social concept. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:51, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, this one is unfortunately in Polish but interesting!. Based on latest research and conclusions! Lapinski, PhD in Polish history, researching genealogy and heraldry, clans. This short film explain. Also clan within Heraldic clan.camdan (talk) 14:23, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology initiated by Camdan about how to correctly handle historical Polish concepts "ród",  "ród herbowy" vs. "House" & "Clan", etc. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:15, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Relisting
I am relisting because I think we may have a valid consensus to move. But it is very difficult to tell when so much (not all) of the material in the long posts above is completely irrelevant. The closer doesn't just count the votes. We assess the arguments. See wp:closing instructions which, while less authoritative than the policy at wp:consensus, explains its application quite clearly, in my opinion.

Please all read WP:AT and, if you still think there is a valid case for a move based on this policy, I would appreciate you making that below. Similarly any objections based on this policy. The closer will then be able to assess consensus. TIA Andrewa (talk) 13:52, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support move to Heraldic clan based on comments following camdan's confirmation from Polish Nobility Association at 16:19, 10 August 2016 (UTC). If "Heraldic clan" can be agreed upon as the most acceptable main title header, all other variants and enhancements, such as Polish heraldic clans can be created or reformatted as redirects. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 14:56, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Move to Heraldic clan. Even a cursory Google Book search shows that "heraldic clan" is much more common in English-language literature on Polish history than "heraldic family". — Kpalion(talk) 20:15, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Move to Heraldic clan per above discussion. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Move to Polish heraldic clan or Heraldic clans in Poland? There are families with coats-of-arms in many countries, not only in Poland. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:59, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You probably don't quite understand the subject, which is not about simply "families with COAs" . The subject is purely Polish and hence the qualifier "in Poland" is redundant. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep "Heraldic family". In the 38-minute Polish-language film recommended by Camdan,  "The Origin, Relationships, and Ethnogenesis of the Polish Nobility in the Light of DNA Studies", the speaker notes several times that, while the original bearers of a Polish coat-of-arms would have been kin, many of its subsequent bearers likely would not have been, due to the Polish practice of co-opting new members from outside the original kinship group, including from foreign countries.


 * The term "clan", as generally used anthropologically and sociologically, suggests descent of the group members from a historic or mythic common ancestor. This clearly does not apply to the various Polish coat-of-arms communities.


 * In this specific Polish case, a more apt term is "family", a term with a broad range of applicability: the familiar "family", of course, but also "family (biology)", "family (periodic table)", "gene family", "protein family", "family of curves", "family of sets", "indexed family", "normal family", "parametric family", "family (musical instruments)", "crime family", "Family 1 manuscripts", "Family 1 engine", and so on.


 * Use of the word "clan" in the Polish heraldic context is jarring to historically-informed sensibilities.
 * Nihil novi (talk) 06:01, 18 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Move to Heraldic clan - family is in this case father, brother, children, wife etc. When family start to use different surnames its Clan and when Clan start to consist of several different families, not being related to each other its Heraldic Clan. camdan Talk 10:59, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * 'Move to heraldic clan'. While User:Nihil novi raises a good point, it seems that the majority of English sources, including Norman Davies, use the clan after all (so, WP:COMMON). We should, however, certainly have a footnote which explains that the clan in this context is a somewhat atypical, misleading use of that word. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:18, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Move to Heralidic clan. In my original version I used both terms, but due to sparsity of English sources I was hesitant which one to pick for article title. Finally I accepted the reasoning similar to that of Nihil novi, but I guess WP:COMMON trumps it. Anyway, words are not what they mean, and a good intro with good explanation will prevent misunderstanding, since here both "family" and "clan" would be used not in their primary meanings. - üser:Altenmann >t 16:33, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Badly in need of clarifications and impovements
After reading the article several times I am still not the wiser about _what_ exactly constitutes such a clan and what's it's purpose.
 * It starts with a coat of arms -> where does that come from? Granted by some prince? Created as a distinctive marker?
 * Family using the CoA grows/splits/merges with other families -> what happens to the CoA, then?
 * Completely unrelated people/families start using the same CoA (maybe with minor variations) -> for what reasons, by what rules and motivations? What does that mean in relation to the original bearers? What follows from that (status, ...)?
 * There seems to be a regional connection as well, judging from one of the comments above -> what happens if a family moves?

From my layman's PoV a CoA serves to distinguish a certain family both in status and common ancestry from other families. Marriages, splits into several branches may result in new, derived CoAs. This is obviously not the case here, but the differences, reasons and consequences are hardly, if at all explained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CC:3F40:2500:3C4F:94F6:E316:7D98 (talk) 13:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)