Talk:Herbert Lovett

Links to other Wikipedia articles and the deletion of the Talk page.
I apologize if my writing is not formal, I am not the best at doing this. I want to bring up the last issue with the article stating that it has no links to other Wikipedia articles. I read some on WP:Link, but I have yet to find a reason why this issue was added. I see many links to other articles in it already. I also want to bring up the deletion of the talk page. I do not know the context of why it was deleted, as the tag is just "Twinkle", which appears to be a tool for going against vandalism. I would like to know why it was deleted, but you do not have to tell me. Thank you. Cinnacat (talk) 19:34, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Cinnacat, the problem is not that it has no links from it, but no links to it. See Orphan. I'll fix that up now. Have a wonderful day. (: AdmiralAckbar1977 (talk) 22:31, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I get it now. Thank you! :] Cinnacat (talk) 22:40, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Discuss before deleting
In order to build new articles, especially with valid sources, it's important to discuss in advance and allow 48 hours for a response. Summarily deleting valid information is against Wikipedia standards. Work with other editors to make the article better. Do not just summarily delete material. You will be called out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrainUnboxed2020 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Deletion without discussion
Material was just deleted without discussion on the talk page. Im going to restore the deleted information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrainUnboxed2020 (talk • contribs) 12:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Notability of Herbert Lovett
An important point of notability for Herbert Lovett is his role in originating the process of "person-centered planning" which now a national standard of care for supporting people with disabilities. Given the opportunity, this article will provide extensive links to this subject. The conncections between Lovett and person centered planning in the i/dd literature is so extensive that it will be a project in itself to establish those links in this article. This will take a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person-centred_planning

Lovett collaborated with and co-wrote with author John O'Brien on the subject of person-centered planning. O'Brien has a wikipedia article linked to person-centered planning. Eventually, this article will be similarly linked and sourced with works they have both authored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_O%27Brien_(advocate)

Here are google scholar links which cite Lovett and O'Brien together https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Herbert+Lovett%2C+John+O%27Brien&btnG=

I feel the notability of Herbert Lovett is a settled matter and should no longer be used to delete this article or its contents.

Please comment on the talk page of this article when making changes
This is in the early development stages. It is very discouraging when people delete or adversely alter material without comment or explanation. Wikipedia is a collaborative process...not a hit and run operation. Thank you
 * Yes, and talk pages work in a certain way - including that new topics go at the bottom not the top. Please provide discussion points that relate to wikipedia guidelines and policies, not just quotes without context or explanation. Try to avoid walls of text. And note, if the article is in "early development stages" then it should be being worked on as a draft not in the main space of the encyclopedia. Articles in main space can and should be edited by anyone in order to comply with policies, guidelines, and the Manual of Style. Finally, this reads as though you have some kind of connection to the subject and/or reason to promote them. Can you please read WP:COI and respond as to whether you have an external relationship with this subject? Thank you Melcous (talk) 12:23, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Reverted quotation
Thank Melcous for the valid edits and remarks you have at times made. On the other hand, you are not discussing them. I reverted the Dufresne quotation. I believe is it important to the article in helping to establish the notability of Hebert Lovett as a public figure. I recommend that if there is an issue with the quotation sounding promotional, which is a very subjective criteria for an editor to assert, when we are dealing with the bio of someone who dedicated themselves to advocacy, then I suggest rewriting rather than removing. I revert the quotation with further reference to Derrick Dufresne to validate the quotation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrainUnboxed2020 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

In your edit commentary you Melcous advise using the talk page. But you have never extended the courtesy of using this talk page to discuss your hit and run edits. Please extend the same. Thank you
 * It is very difficult to engage on a talk page that is as messy as this one. Please try to keep all edits in chronological and logical order, refrain from adding quotes without context, and remember to sign your posts. I have attempted to communicate, but it has not even been clear that the same person has been making all the edits. As it now appears this is the case, first, you should not edit while you are logged out; and again I would ask you to respond to the question as to whether you have a conflict of interest with this subject. Thank you Melcous (talk) 13:52, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I accept your feedback. It's been a long time since I attempted to edit anything on wikipedia. I apologize for the mess and the missed signitures. I will work on improving. But that is no excuse for dodging a conversation. Perhaps you are just very busy which is understandable.

Good edits
Melcous (talk) the edit this morning that boiled down a lengthy quotation was I feel very helpful. Thank youBrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 14:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Rewriting 'Promotional' Sounding Quotation
prior version:

As Derick Dufresne, in a video series for the Minnesota Governor’s Council on Developmental Disabilities says "Herb Lovett…and others, I think, exploded to some degree on the scene because what they said was, you know what? Maybe this behavior has a purpose. Maybe this behavior is communication."

rewrite: In a video series for the Minnesota Governor's Council on Developmental Disabilities, human services consultant/CEO Derick Dufresne notes "Herbert Lovett...and others...said you know what? Maybe this behavior has a purpose. Maybe this behavior is communication."
 * Again, please read how to use talk pages properly and start adding new comments at the bottom (or just use the tab "Add topic"), and make sure you always sign your posts. Please also respond to the question about conflict of interest before you continue to edit.
 * On this particular quote, why is it needed at all? It reads as promotional (of both Lovett and of the Council), and all it really adds is that Lovett is one of many people who suggested that behaviour is purposeful. It doesn't give any detail on what that means or why it matters. It would be far better to find a third-party source that summarises the significance of his work than continuing to re-insert quotes like this. Melcous (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I have no conflict of interest. My interest in a Herbert Lovett article stems from my being a human services professional who has worked in the I/DD Intellectual/Developmental Disabilities field in the United States for over 30 years. I'm not part of any organization that had anything to do with Herbert Lovett. I'm fascinated to learn that he, along with many others, helped to change our philosophy and practices. My hope is to help set in motion an encyclopedia article that will best document this history in an objective and factual manner. Also, I'm doing this in the spirit of public service, and I have no financial interest in promoting this information.


 * Regarding my persistence in adding the quotation, I feel that the video series is of interest to readers in itself. This was the source through which I first learned about the work of Herbert Lovett. Additionally, I beleive as a reference it adds to establishing Lovett's notability as a public figure. In a Wikipedia article I believe it's important to use a variety of sources to corroborate the information in an article.I will c continue to streamline this reference to that is adds information and doesn't detract from the body of the articleBrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 00:01, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I have again trimmed the quote. If the purpose is to show notability because his work is cited, then a reference to that as I have done should suffice. I get that this is how you learned about him, but it is not a source, nor a quote, that is particularly noteworthy from a global encyclopedia point of view. Also, best practice is to have this kind of discussion here and reach consensus first, before just re-inserting disputed content. See also WP:BRD. Thanks Melcous (talk) 01:57, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Here is the update you did: The Minnesota Governor's Council on Developmental Disabilities cites Lovett as one of a number of people who prompted changes to approaching autistic behavior.[10]. For continuity in the paragraph and meaning in the sentence I'd like it to read something like: The Minnesota Governor's Council on Developmental Disabilities cites Lovett as one of a number of clinician-advocates who changed the focus of behavioral support for people with intellectual disabilities to prioritize communication.  (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People-first_language) 2600:1008:A120:4048:52A:15ED:87C1:9998 (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2023
 * , again please remember to log in so that it is clear these edits come from the same editor. I am happy for you to change that sentence as you have suggested above. Thanks Melcous (talk) 11:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Third Party Source for Notabillity of Herbert Lovett
Handbook of Intellectual Disabilities Johnny L. Matson 2019 Springer cites O'Brien & Lovett 1993 below as the source for the Individual Service Design approach to person-centered planning

"Components of PCP The term PCP is used to describe a broad approach rather than a specific technique. Many manualized interventions based on the PCP framework have been developed with widespread implementation, including Personal Futures Planning (Mount, 1994 ), Planning Alternative Tomorrows with Hope (PATH; Pearpoint, O’Brien, & Forest, 1993 ), the McGill Action Planning System (MAPS; Vandercook, York, & Forest, 1989 ), Individual Service Design (O’Brien & Lovett, 1993 ), Essential Lifestyle Planning (Smull & Harrison, 1992 ), and Whole Life Planning (Butterworth et al., 1993 ). These various interventions have been designed for application within specific organizational structures but share the overarching structure and philosophy of PCP. "BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 02:31, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Without having any wider context than this quote, the most that can be said from this is that Lovett and O'Brien used an Individual Service Design intervention, not that they are the "source" of this approach (they may be, but that quote does not demonstrate that). Rather than looking for specific quotes, what is needed here is sources that specifically talk about what Lovett contributed to the field. It might also be worth reading WP:OR and noting that examples of Lovett doing something do not in and themselves allow us to write in wikipedia's voice that he made some wider contribution to the field, there needs to be a source that actually says that his work made that contribution. I hope that makes sense, please ask if not. Thanks Melcous (talk) 06:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * good feedback. That makes sense. 2600:1008:A120:4048:8963:3C8D:2AF4:1D51 (talk) 12:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Also there should be a paragraph on his views about behaviorism
He accepted the science, but questions the execution in a social context BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 23:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, this would require a reliable source where someone else is talking about his views and why they are significant, rather than just referencing to his own work. Melcous (talk) 06:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm using the talk page as kind of a work space. My plan is to keep adding references under the heading. Sorry for all of the clutter — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrainUnboxed2020 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * please stop using this talk page as your own work space, that is not what it is for and it is very unhelpful for all other editors. You can use your own sandbox for that. Melcous (talk) 01:17, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * User:Melcous, what on earth is going on here? Drmies (talk) 02:02, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * , I asked this editor not to use this talk page as a workspace, but unfortunately in an attempt to clean it up, he deleted sections that including comments and interactions with other editors. I did request restoration of those sections, but the response was to restore everything. If agrees, I am happy to make the changes to make this talk page a reflection only of editor interactions and hopefully provide a better way to move forward. The latest edit is another example of one that belongs in your sandbox, not here Brain Unoxed - this page should only be used for discussions with other editors about the article.Melcous (talk) 02:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Well,, it's a mess alright. Look, you're an editor who knows what's going on: do as you see fit. You do what you think is right--remove content, remove whole huge chunks of content--it's still in the history. Or set up a /sandbox "under" this talk page. It's all good to me; good luck and let me know if I can help. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm going to propose a sentence or two for the article with these citations. My thought is that I will need to show the citations to support the sentence. Additionally If you are willing to help with reorganizing the talk page it will be much appreciated. BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 02:37, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks and . I have attempt a tidy up of this talk page by removing those sections which were using it as working space, but keeping previous discussions between editors. I've also put it into what as best as I can see was chronological order. Hopefully that makes is easier to read moving forward. BrainUnboxed, your suggestion above to propose a sentence or two with citations is good - please start a new section with a heading below this when you do that, which can then enable other editors to easily respond to that specific proposal. Melcous (talk) 03:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposed sentence to be added to this article (02/25/23):
Noted by others working in the field of intellectual disabilities, Lovett's early contributions to establishing more Person-centered care in the context of deinstitutionalization include influences on person-centered planning, self-advocacy, self-determination, and Positive behavior support (PBS).

Annotated References of the above sources for editors review here on this talk page:

1.	Sanderson, H. (1997). People, Plans & Possibilities: Exploring Person Centred Planning. SHS, Ltd. This book discusses the project in Manchester and includes experiences of person-centred planning in Scotland and Liverpool. It draws on the work of colleagues and mentors in the United States and Canada who have done much to change the culture of human services, including John O’Brien, Jack Pearpoint, Marsha Forest, Judith Snow, John McKnight, Michael Smull, Herb Lovett, Marilyn Wilson, and Beth Mount.

2.	Cutler, B. C. (1993). You, Your Child, and Special Education: A Guide to Dealing with the System. Autism National Committee.Paul H. Brookes Publishing Co. The author highlights the importance of recognizing competence in and giving respect to individuals with disabilities, citing Bill Condon and Herb Lovett as models who did this long before the self-advocacy movement was established.

3. Bambara, L. M. (2004). Are You a Behaviorist or a Bonder? Smashing Artificial Dichotomies and Entering Into a Dialogue of Shared Knowledge and Multiple Perspectives. In L. M. Bambara, G. Dunlap, & I. S. Schwartz (Eds.), Positive Behavior Support: Critical Articles on Improving Practice for Individuals with Severe Disabilities (pp. 59-62). PRO-ED, Inc. and TASH. Bambara describes the influence of two main sources on positive behavior support (PBS), applied behavior analysis (the behaviorists) and the inclusion/person-centered planning movement (the bonders). Bambara indicates that she liked the precision of the behavioral orientation, but was also strongly influenced by Herb Lovett's views (1996) on the importance of forming genuine interpersonal relationships with the people they support and listening to what people communicate through their words and actions, which opened doors for her.

4. Stillman, William. The Everything Parent's Guide to Children with Asperger's Syndrome. Simon and Schuster, 2010. The author suggests that parents of children with Asperger's Syndrome adopt positive philosophies, which were first defined by Herb Lovett, a late humanitarian. The first philosophy is that "People have good reasons for doing what they do," while the second philosophy is that "People are doing the very best they know how to with what they've got." By reflecting upon these philosophies and recognizing that people are more alike than different, parents can take a proactive approach to their child's Asperger's Syndrome.

5.	Kluth, P. (2003). You're Going to Love This Kid!" Teaching Students with Autism in the Inclusive Classroom. Paul H. Brookes Publishing Co., Inc.  Lovett is cited as pointing out the centrality of making connections with those whom teachers are hired to support in any work related to behavior support. He emphasizes the importance of educators showing their feelings and humanity to those they support and the significance of relationships in the context of ongoing commitment and mutual affection and regard. The author argues that the limitations of behaviorism must be realized, despite its popularity as a theory of learning that focuses on objectively observable behaviors. While some educators have challenged the usefulness of behaviorist technologies, Herb Lovett suggests that it is the application of behaviorism that is often found reprehensible and not behaviorism itself. The use of behavioral interventions often reduces complex social situations too simply. However, behavioral technology can be used to support behaviors and help students enhance their quality of life when used sensitively and grounded in positive relationships. The author also discusses the negative effects of rewards and reinforcement on students' motivation and behavior, which can result in frustrated teachers, unsuccessful students, and wasted time and energy. Lovett's explanation of how external reinforcement can lead to decreased motivation and effectiveness is given as an example. This book is a resource for teachers looking to teach students with autism in an inclusive classroom.

6.	Power, A., Lord, J. E., & DeFranco, A. S. (2013). Active Citizenship and Disability: Implementing the Personalisation of Support. Cambridge University Press. The authors refer to the work of Jack Pearpoint, Marsha Forest, John McKnight, John McGee, Herb Lovett, Judith Snow, John O'Brien, Marc Gold, and Jean Vanier in critiques of group homes and advocates of self-determination. BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 16:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * , if you are going to propose something here on the talk page you need to give other editors time to respond, not just go ahead and add it to the article within a couple of hours regardless. References should be verifiable by other editors, meaning that rather than annotating with your own summaries, you should give page numbers and links if possible so that other editors can check for themselves. Melcous (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I have edited this addition both for clarity of wording, and to link the areas more specifically to verifiable sources (as well as adding citation templates). It is better to have a small number of good, well cited and easily verifiable sources linked to a specific contribution. (See also WP:CITEKILL). Thanks Melcous (talk) 21:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Regarding the texts being visible to other editors, obviously many texts in print are not available in an electronic format that isn't behind a pay wall. Most of the references today are available at Open library which has free on-line subscription. Would links to those versions of the texts count? Would quoting sections word for word best if the text isnt visible to other editors? If so that will created big blocks of text and clutter the page. I suppose I could put a direct quote in and collapse it? It's just hard to imagine any encyclopedia excluding books that arn't able to viewed on the internet. Also, Asperger syndrome is considered an outdated term. The DSM-V Pyschiatry's Bible designates Autism as the umbrella term. I realize some the older titles about Herb Lovett reference Aspergers but if they were published today they'd address the new terminology in some way. I think it should be changed in the wikipedia text for the article.BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 23:11, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem with updating that language. References don't have to be online, but when you have a list of books that are quite obscure and not readily available anywhere, it does not give great confidence in them. But yes, pointing to places like open library can be helpful, and if necessary a quote or two for a source that is for example behind a paywall can be helpful. Your reflections here on not cluttering the page are good - just try to think about what makes it easiest and most accessible for other editors (now and in the future) to follow and enter into the discussion. Thanks Melcous (talk) 22:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Another sentence
With John O'Brien (advocate), Lovett co-wrote “Finding A Way Toward Everyday Lives,” a paper cited by others in the disabilities field as a significant reference point in the early development of person-centered planning     BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 11:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Add quotation from Lovett "Learning to Listen"
At the end of the first paragraph under contributions I propose adding: “My experience has been that extreme behavior often comes from not feeling listened to. Just as repressive organizational or political systems lead to aggression and revolution, the most profoundly disturbing behavior is often found in incompetent and unresponsive service systems.” Lovett, Learning To Listen p. 6 It captures the flavor of Lovett's thought and writing more generally and will help to give the reader a clearer picture of Lovett's general point of view. BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 12:07, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding a first person quote in wikipedia's voice is not helpful. Per WP:RS, the article should be based on what independent secondary sources say about Lovett and his work, not what he says about it himself. Melcous (talk) 12:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, I guess I'm thinking about it being an interesting article and increasing variety. But I see what you are saying. Thank you BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 13:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

person centered planning
https://inclusion.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/everyday_lives.pdf"Finding a way toward every day lives: the contribution of person-centered planning" O'Brien & Lovett Summary: Person-centered planning is an approach to community change that involves individuals with disabilities, their families, and friends in organizing and guiding the change process. The focus is on valuing the individual as a person rather than just a client, with the goal of providing personalized services that meet their unique needs and interests. However, there are different perspectives on how the process should be carried out, and some people believe that it may become a system fad that fails to bring about meaningful change. To prevent these issues, there are several possible safeguards for person-centered planning. The ultimate goal is to change common patterns of community life that devalue people with disabilities and perpetuate controlling relationships, and promote appreciation and celebration of each person's uniqueness, effective communication, respect, and positive social change. BrainUnboxed2020 (talk) 12:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC)