Talk:Herbert Werner

Notability tag
I created this offering and having read the "notability guidline for biographies" of the MoS, I cannot really see why this article is up to be "merged, re-directed or deleted".

Werner might have not figured in "reliable secondary sources", (at least, I haven't found any others yet), but to have survived the destruction of one U-boat and the sinking of another and all the other things that happened to him; indeed, just to have survived the war, in arguably the most hazardous arm of the Wehrmact is, I would have thought, reason enough for an article on him. There are articles about far less note-worthy individuals on Wikipedia.

I am not too sure where this article should be "merged or re-directed".

As far as the "orphan" tag is concerned, I fail to see why it is so labelled. I do not have the time, or the inclination, to search the encylopedia for "links". Moreover, the relevant page of the MoS says: "Although a single [my emphasis], relevant incoming link is sufficient to remove the tag, three or more is ideal and will help ensure the article is reachable to readers." I'm tempted to wait another week and then remove the tag.

What do other editors think?

RASAM (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I’ve removed the tag. Werner is notable as the author of "Iron Coffins", which is a classic memoir of life in the U-boat service, and is cited in several articles here. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

IMHO Excellent article
I have recently read this excellent book by Herbert Werner,and imho this article is a very good outline of his book.Iron Coffins has in the past had its detractors,BUT i have spent a fair while doing my own research and the book is pretty accurate, the parts where it does suffer are essentially numbers ie of ships sunk ect,however it must be remembered that the Nazis AND the Allies both "cooked" their official books when they considered it in their interests,so its quite likely Werner was looking at "factual" books as HE saw them....One aspect that is often dismissed by the people who rubbish his book as "fiction" is the mine laying operation of Chesepeake Bay VA,this DID happen as werner has described it can be followed at UBOAT.NET the boat was U-230 and the dates all correspond its worth also noting Werner NEVER claimed to be the skipper on this boat,however the inconsistancy was in the number of mines dropped he says twenty four the OFFICIAL records say eight, either way IT HAPPENED it was not fiction,.....His whole time on Uboats can be researched by those with the time and interest,the bottom line is the book stands up to scrutiny...it is just a shame he died having to defend it often by people without the knowledge to critsize it in the first place because he had a truly incredible wartime experience..Bullseye30 (talk) 19:31, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * You should probably do a bit more of your own research; cross-check with the U-boat pages at uboat.net, for example; or consider the comment by the U-boat historian, Jurgen Rohwer, maybe...Xyl 54 (talk) 23:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * First hand accounts once established 'history' (Herodotus), but now academics and historians somehow manage to receive greater credibility for truth as they present it. This leads to misinformation and manipulation. Rösing spent most of the war in comfort far from conflict until the Allied invasion came to him. Werner aptly criticizes inland naval officers behind the lines dining well and surrounded by bureaucrats in white uniforms. As FdU-West senior officer, Rösing would have been in the immediacy of the lunacy of German high command and in order to 'get along' Rösing had to go along with the strident demands of Dönitz and Hitler to pursue the war in the same manner as demanded by Goebbels (Sportpalast speech on 18 February 1943). Werner alludes to this at one point by referencing civilians (children and old men) with panzerfaust weapons. As such, it makes sense that Rösing did tell the U-boat captains (as written by Werner) to commit suicide by ramming: it is effectively implementing Goebbels' Total War - at sea. Further, it makes sense that Rösing denied saying this after the war because Rösing was feathering his nest with the new West German government where he eventually received the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany. Rösing was, after all, the son of an Admiral and the grandson of a diplomat, i.e. Rösing was a political animal. As for Dr. Rohwer's criticism, it is nonsensical in context. The number of suicides and fanatical behavior afoot in Germany in 1944 inspired by the demands of Goebbels' 'total war' speech in early 1943 was absolutely the high command and expectation of Hitler. For Rösing to have denied saying it or for Rohwer or others to defend Rösing and attack the credibility of Werner's representation ignores what was happening in Germany during and after the war. It makes sense to remove edits that attempt to rewrite or retell Werner's memoir or worse - rewrite history. 216.135.105.130 (talk) 14:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Image issue
i wish to add an image of mr werner,however there are so many hoops to jump through this is almost impossible as i'm unable to find out anything about the photograph [ie copyright issues]it is clearly very old andi would like to upload it,...the image is on mr werners page at U-BOAT.NET it is the second image [bottom image] so if anyone has the time and knowledge to do it,it would be fitting for this article,...Bullseye30 (talk) 08:37, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Iron Coffins
I've re-arranged the content of this article, to make a section on Werner's book, “Iron Coffins” as most of the information here has been drawn from it. It is an impressive personal memoir, but it is hardly a reliable source: A number of the incidents he describes are demonstrably untrue, and much of the rest is unverifiable. He is also all too ready to repeat inflated claims and Nazi propaganda without qualification, though by 1967 he must have known better. Even if the incidents he records happened, they didn't necessarily happen to him, which puts the book in the same bracket as "Papillon", or "The Way Back". So I suggest it would be better to keep Werner's biography and the content of Iron Coffins separate, as we have with Henri Charriere and Papillon; whether they should be separate articles I'm undecided. Xyl 54 (talk) 21:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Split?
As discussed here at MILHIST there is some support for the idea of splitting the Iron Coffins section off to a separate book article. Are there any objections to this? Xyl 54 (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I support the idea of a split. Most of the article is dedicated to the book; this material would be better off in its own article. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Moving to the US
"He moved to the United States in 1957 and became an American citizen", and "Werner is thought to have moved to the USA in 1947 and became an American citizen". These two extracts appear in para 2 of the intro and the penultimate sentence of the 'Biography' section respectively, and while they clearly contradict each other, they are both referenced.

So, which one is correct?

My money is on the former - they are both referenced by 'u-boat.net', but this site has quite a number of pretty glaring typos and other mistakes. 1957 is also quoted in 'Iron Coffins' (shock, horror), but I would say that it is fairly safe to assume that Herbert Werner would not get such a date wrong.

RASAM (talk) 16:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, that's my mistake. I don't know where I got 1947 wrong; I'm guessing I was copying from the Introduction and wrote it down wrong. I had a look at the uboat.net bio and in IC, but I couldn't find it in either. Anyway I've fixed it so they both say the same: Regards, Xyl 54 (talk) 13:39, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed cleanup
I suggest greatly condensing the content of this article as it's basically a retelling of Werner's book. Plot summaries are generally kept to a 400-700 words. The article also seems to be mixing facts with fiction, by relying on the memoirs as source. Would there be any objections? K.e.coffman (talk) 08:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I remember his book from years ago; as for the article, upon quick review, it is almost all primary sourced and overly long in presentation/intricate detail. I don't know if the U-boat articles for the ones he was attached to have any RS citing and shorter passages; but I would suggest having a look. Kierzek (talk) 15:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Retelling of subject's memoir
I removed it as excessive and non-encyclopedic; preserving here by providing this link. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Werner received interesting criticism in Germany in 1970
"Werner also tells what the leader of the submarines West in the Atlantic (FdU-West) Hans Rösing, said in May 1944 in the naval base Brest unbelievable: 'Gentlemen, I expect you to emerge when attacked or empty-shot and ram your boats into the attacker or the next target in the landing fleet.' And: 'Ramming. That's exactly what the leadership means. You won't have a chance to repeat your attack.' The former submarine commander, who has lived as a merchant in the United States since the end of the war, is, according to foreword author Hans Hellmut Kirst ('08/15'), a 'unique eyewitness' who 'has sworn to tell nothing but the truth'. Kirst: 'What he claims is true.' The publisher certifies his author: 'He was there and knows what he's talking about.' The military historian and expert on the submarine war, Dr. Jürgen Rohwer, 45, on the other hand, judges: 'The order to commit suicide is a fantasy product', Werner himself is an 'unrestrained blowhard'." http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-45152282.html --2A02:908:F8C:8460:F166:C8B6:BB8D:90D2 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2019 (UTC)


 * First hand accounts once established 'history' (Herodotus), but now academics and historians somehow manage to receive greater credibility for truth as they present it. This leads to misinformation and manipulation. Rösing spent most of the war in comfort far from conflict until the Allied invasion came to him. Werner aptly criticizes inland naval officers behind the lines dining well and surrounded by bureaucrats in white uniforms. As FdU-West senior officer, Rösing would have been in the immediacy of the lunacy of German high command and in order to 'get along' Rösing had to go along with the strident demands of Dönitz and Hitler to pursue the war in the same manner as demanded by Goebbels (Sportpalast speech on 18 February 1943). Werner alludes to this at one point by referencing civilians (children and old men) with panzerfaust weapons. As such, it makes sense that Rösing did tell the U-boat captains (as written by Werner) to commit suicide by ramming: it is effectively implementing Goebbels' Total War - at sea. Further, it makes sense that Rösing denied saying this after the war because Rösing was feathering his nest with the new West German government where he eventually received the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany. Rösing was, after all, the son of an Admiral and the grandson of a diplomat, i.e. Rösing was a political animal. As for Dr. Rohwer's criticism, it is nonsensical in context. The number of suicides and fanatical behavior afoot in Germany in 1944 inspired by the demands of Goebbels' 'total war' speech in early 1943 was absolutely the high command and expectation of Hitler. For Rösing to have denied saying it or for Rohwer or others to defend Rösing and attack the credibility of Werner's representation ignores what was happening in Germany during and after the war. It makes sense to remove edits that attempt to rewrite or retell Werner's memoir or worse - rewrite history. 216.135.105.130 (talk) 13:56, 20 September 2023 (UTC)