Talk:Herbert von Karajan/Archive 1

Criticism section
The "criticism" section of this page, IMHO is well written, well documented, and deserves to be there. But I gotta say that it is so long, and there is so little on the other side, that it seems unbalanced to me. I'm not a von Karajan fan and I'm not enough of a classical music cognoscenti to write any balancing paragraphs, but isn't there anyone who could speak with sincere and well-informed conviction of von Karajan's status as clearly the towering figure in orchestral music in the closing decades of the twentieth century?

I knew an old friend of my parents, now deceased, who was Jewish and escaped from Nazi Germany during the war... who nevertheless loved music and believed firmly that von Karajan was head and shoulders above all other contemporary conductors and truly set the musical standard. Dpbsmith 14:18, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * I think your remarks are dead on, Dpbs, and I'm sorry I didn't notice them earlier. After an initial episode of venting my own (rather fervent) distaste I've tried to gradually steer the article back towards NPOV.  Hopefully, as you said, someone with more positive views will eventually come "along and produce a truly NPOV article.  Cheers, Opus33 00:29, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Still seems kind of biased. I've got a few things I want to add anyway.  Karajan's conducting has a quality and depth of musicianship.  It is often very polished sounding, having voluptuous finesse or intense richness of pathos, etc. and evenly matched hues of tone color and balanced forces of thematic elements.  Perhaps a lot of criticism against Karajan comes from the fact that he often treated the demanding environment of the recording studio as an intense kind of kiln from which the piece rises in all it's musical glory later in the concert hall--a means for the perfect live performance. 65.203.174.134 02:13, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Certainly way too long and reads a little hysterical. Gingermint (talk) 04:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Karajan was not an Nazi. He joined them in 1933, and for dubious reasons. The criticism in the opening section and the extensive criticism thereafter reeks of an ill-informed "hit-job." He was after all an artist, and was apolitical for the most part; the encyclopedia article should reflect von Karajan the artist first and foremost.

75.138.255.225 (talk) 05:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Von and Kara
Just as a piece of trivia, the "von" and "kara" particles in his name are contrasting one to other: (I'm not sure whether this is encyclopedic enough to be included in the article).
 * kara means "vasal" or "lower-class" (quite common for Vlachs/Aromanians; see List of Vlachs)
 * von is used only by German aristocrats.


 * I think it's interesting enough to go in the article. Not knowing anything of such matters, I'm very conscious of the significance of the "Von" but didn't know about the "kara." Go for it. Dpbsmith 16:09, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Family origin
The article currently says that "he was born /.../ in a Aromanian family /.../". I've read an article on Karajan in the Slovenian leading newspaper Delo that says that Herbert's mother Marta Kosmač was indeed Slovene by nationality. Because this is the first time I hear this and because of the general style of that particular article, I didn't want to correct the info in the wiki-article, but I wonder if anyone knows anything more on this issue? --romanm (talk) 11:26, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

They were all mixed up in the old KUK Austro-Hung. Empire weren' they? According to Karl-Markus Gauß he was really a Vlach/Aromanian see article if you understand a bit of Hungarian. The article was originally published in the Austrian paper Der Standard Abject 11:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Generally acknowledged as greatest of century?
Hmmm... To say this is really going very far out on a limb, I think, given all the negative things critics have said about Karajan's conducting.

If my anonymous colleague really wants to put this in the article, perhaps it might be best say that there are lots of individual people who think he was the greatest (see for instance Dpbsmith's remarks above), but not imply that this is a consensus. Opus33 05:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Well said. I also politely disagree that he is "generally acknowledged as greatest of the century" though there are certainly some people who think so.  (I'm not one of them.)  "One of the..." is certainly accurate.  Antandrus 05:30, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, if I were to attribute a "greatest" title, it would probably go to Karajan, but generally I think such a title is unfair given the wide variety of artistic genius in conductors of the century, Beecham, Furtwangler, Celibidache, Klieber, Levine, Szell, Reiner, Toscanini, and Klemperer (even Nickisch :-), to name a random few, unless he were very commonly characterized by critics as the greatest, which is doubtful, though towards the end of his life he was voted the conductor's conductor (I'm not entirely sure what that means since it's been a while since I read Richard Osbourne's biography), then I say we satisfy ourselves with "one of the greatest." 65.203.174.134 01:55, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Didn't Nickisch sort of invent the whole maestro thing? Dpbsmith (talk) 02:25, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Herbert von Karajan (Karayan) had ARMENIAN origin - not Slavic. There are many references (books) published in the Soviet era about it and it's almost common knowledge. He conducted Aram Khatchaturian's work including Spartacus, Gayane ballet etc.. And for a legend like him this written 'gossip' on this same page about his personal relationships are totally irrelevant and whoever wrote it has very poor taste, poor knowledge and no understanding of Karajan's greatness. Taline —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taline Temizian (talk • contribs) 02:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding him being one of the best of the 20th Century, I don't think it is much of a thing for intelligent people to bother with. It is easily said he was one of the best conductors of all time. Time has held this out. We can't say he was the best (certainly to some) but there is no serious doubt one of the very best. As for critics... well everyone's gotten all sorts of bad reviews. That doesn't mean anything Gingermint (talk) 04:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and the Armenian thing is really interesting. Gingermint (talk) 04:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and as for the Armenian

The Sabine Meyer Affair
Very surprised to not see this included. Is that purposely? In any case it did cause alot hype in the mid 80s as Karajan showed excessive favouritism to a young female clarinetist by the name of Sabine Meyer. Not sure what happened, but another point is that any young performer that Karajan pointed to would be sure of immediate fame overnight. Any takers out there on Sabine Meyer?


 * I think that you will find a shocking amount of catty behaviour in the world of the finer arts, and that rumours tend to be blown up, exaggerated, and spread with disgustingly rapid and eager efforts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.22.22.101 (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

She was a young clarinetist who was placed on a probationary position for the Berlin Philharmonic around 1984 (she played in the orchestra on their US tour at that time). If approved, she would have been the first female member of the orchestra. While the players respected her talent- which is enormous- they felt she didn't "blend" well with them and ultimately turned her down for full membership. Needless to say, this caused a furor with outside observers due to its sexist overtones. For whatever reason, Karajan had staked a lot of his personal influence with the orchestra on getting her approved and when it did not happen, there was an immediate feud that exploded between him and the Berliners. He canceled tours, reduced his conducting responsibilities, canceled an engagement with them only to hire the Vienna Philharmonic- their arch rivals-for the engagement and ultimately resigned his position as Conductor for Life. Some who knew him, like the conductor Erich Leinsdorf felt the stress of this ultimately contributed to his fatal heart attack. Whatever the truth of that, it was a sad ending to a tremendous career. As for Sabine Meyer, she went on to a very successful career as one of the most respected solo clarinetists. Perhaps that is an indication that she wouldn't have fit well with an orchestra but of course, many orchestra players do have solo careers. Lfkl (talk) 04:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)lfkl

Postwar activities
Deleted reference to Karajan conducting the Orchestre de Paris in the 1948-53 time period as it did not yet exist. Grover cleveland 20:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Dbpsmith: you reinserted the reference to the Orchestre de Paris in the 1948-53 section, presumably by accident. A casual glance at that article will tell you that that orchestra was not founded until 1967.  I'm deleting it again. Grover cleveland 19:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Origin in Greek Macedonia?
I have moved the following section from the main article.

Roots
Herbert von Karajan's ancestors came from Greek-Macedonia, Kozani specifically and arrived in Vienna via the electorate of Saxony - the family's original name was "Karajannis". From the Greek "Karajannis," it became the noble "von" Karajan

It is the only edit by an anon user, and has no references. Besides, it contradicts an older version of the text, which states that his family originated in Ioannina in the Greek province of Epirus. If somebody has a good reference for which story is correct, feel free to update the article. --Valentinian 00:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Valentinian, not sure were the non user got his/her info from but when I did some searching on the Karajannis family, I came across this:


 * Georg Johannes Karajoannes: Herbert von Karajan's Great-Great-Grandfather was born in Kozani (Kozane) in the Karstic Mountains in Macedonia. In 1767 he left Greece travelling first to Vienna and then moving on to Chemnitz in Saxony. He and his brother, Theodor Johannes, founded cotton weaving mills and factories there, thus helping to establish Saxony's textile industry. For their services in the furtherance of trade and industry, Frederick Augustus III, Elector of Saxony raised them both to the nobility on 1 June 1792. As knights of the Holy Roman Empire, the Karajannis family henceforth called themselves "Karajan". 


 * Johannes/Jannis/Johann are the Latinez versions of Ioannis(John), which it seems is also part of their last name "Karaioannis", I've also seen it spelled "Karayannis". The site has a detailed description of the Karajannis family, including a few pics. Don't know how "reliable" this info is but this is what I was able to find regarding the Epirus/Macedonia origins issue.   ~Mallaccaos, 14 March 2006


 * It is not an ideal source, but at least we now have a source. I've restored the section (and rewritten it. I've used the German Wikipedia as reference regarding the proper spelling of the family name. If I've made mistakes, feel free to update. --Valentinian (talk) 20:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Length of CD
The material about Bruckner's 5th and 8th symphonies makes no sense. The editor speculates that the length of a CD was chosen to be 74 minutes so they could fit on two CDs instead of three. That would be true even if the length of a CD was 40 minutes! In fact, many recordings of Bruckner 5 and 8 fit on one CD - but not Karajan's.

I propose that this material be removed. Grover cleveland 02:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed it. The material was:


 * It is possible, however, that Karajan had the Bruckner Symphonies in mind with regards to the 74 minute length. The Fifth and Eighth are longer still at 80 minutes a piece, but could therefore be recorded on two discs instead of three.  While there is no concrete evidence of this, it remains a likely possibility.


 * As worded, it sounds like the speculation or the opinion of the editor who inserted it, which of course is not allowable per the verifiability policy. Opinions and speculation of course can be put in an article if they are the opinions and speculation of some reasonably authoritative source. So, if someone can find a reasonable source for this suggestion, a book or an audio magazine or whatever, they can reinsert it. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The current material about Karajan's alleged role in setting the length of the CD is totally unsupported by references. Please could someone fix this: otherwise I propose we delete this whole topic under WP:Verifiability. Grover cleveland 10:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the following material from the article until it can be verified:


 * As a a matter of fact, it was Karajan who argued that the standard length of the compact disc should be set by this most famous and universal of works. However, when searching for the longest existing version of the symphony, Akio Morita, CEO of Sony and a close friend of Karajan's, realized that it was none of the Austrian's recordings (at an average length of 66 minutes), but the 1951 Wilhelm Furtwängler version recorded in Bayreuth by Walter Legge, which henceforth set the average limit of the CD.

Grover cleveland 05:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I would take the above quotation to refer to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, not a Bruckner symphony. There exists a version of Beethoven's ninth recorded in Bayreuth in 1951 by EMI, I don't know of any such recording of Bruckner. Besides, I remember reading that the length of the CD may have been chosen with releasing Beethoven's ninth by Karajan in mind.S.Camus 12:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Politics: Nazi past
The NYTimes August 15, 2006 "The Nazis and the Salzburg Festival: A Disputed Film History", article is primarily about the Salzburg Festival. But it contains this quote:
 * "After World War II the story shifts to the decades when the formidable Salzburg-born conductor Herbert von Karajan became the intimidating leader of the festival. Bluntly calling Karajan “a Nazi, a true believer,” Michael Steinberg, a historian, reminds us that Karajan joined the party twice, early on in Austria when it was illegal, then again after the annexation."

Seems there are facts here which can be verified (which the NYTimes generally does) and added to the politics section. There seems to be more room for ambiguity than the article currently allows for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.0.188.159 (talk • contribs) 11:47, 15 August 2006

It appears that the Times (and perhaps Steinberg) were wrong on both counts. HvK filed a preliminary application only in 1933 from Salzburg, but joined for real in 1935, before the Annexation but after he is commonly supposed to have joined. (Oct 2007) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Concordia88 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You can find an article of John Tagliabue in NYT: March 17, 1983 (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50716F63E5D0C748DDDAA0894DB484D81&scp=2&sq=Karajan+Nazi&st=nyt), which is citated by Fred K. Prieberg "Handbuch Deutsche Musiker": Karajan's agent forbid the NYT to publish anything in connection to his Nazi past. Perhaps there is something other interesting in: (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B10F7395D0C748EDDAA0894DB484D81&scp=3&sq=Karajan+Nazi&st=nyt). --Andrea 1903 (talk) 03:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The Nazi part of the article was incredibly long. Gingermint (talk) 04:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Favorites?
Wouldn't it be a nice addition if someone could dig up some of Karajan's favorite pieces of music? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melnicki (talk • contribs) 20:28, 5 January 2007

External Link
Does anyone else think that James Wierzbicki article is a bit much? I think it's important to note that Karajan had his admirers and critcs, but this is one of only 4 external links and it's pretty much a tirade against the man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 (talk • contribs) 15:23, 31 May 2007

Rachmaninoff and Karajan
I couldn't think of anywhere to ask that question: is there ANY performance of Karajan conducting a Rachmaninoff piece other than Piano Concerto No.2 with Alexis Weissenberg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightspirit (talk • contribs) 19:56, 2 June 2007
 * According to the Karajan.org website, the Second Piano Concerto was the only Rachmaninoff work that Karajan ever conducted in public. There are ten public performances listed.  Interestingly, all but one predate Karajan's tenure with the Berlin Philharmonic.  The exception, of course, was the 1973 Berlin Philharmonic concert with Weissenberg, which is available on video.  In addition to this there is the 1972 studio recording with the same pianist.  (The pre-1972 performances were with a variety of different pianists). Grover cleveland 17:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Sexism?
Was Karajan a sexist? Because, as far as i know, there had been no female in his orchestra other than Sabine Meyer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightspirit (talk • contribs) 20:33, 2 June 2007


 * Interesting question, because I remember hearing way back when about the controversy over what I assume was her hire: as I heard it told, von Karajan was the one who proposed hiring her (she was a clarinetist, no?), but the player-run Berlin Phil. objected, making them, I suppose, the sexists here. Of course, I may be misremembering things ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The Meyer story is correct - he wanted her, the orchestra didn't. It pretty much lead to him quitting in the end, although officially it was for health reasons. Since the Berlin Phil had never had a woman up until that point, her inclusion actually suggests that if anything he was anti-sexist. The Vienna Phil didn't have any women until 2001 I believe, when they were pretty much told that by law they had to stop excluding female players. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 (talk • contribs) 17:47, 11 August 2007

Vienna: Symphony or Philharmonic?
In the infobox on the right it states in the list of orchestras, etc, that von Karajan was associated with the Berlin Phil, etc, and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra, not the Vienna Philharmonic. I'd always known about the Vienna Phil connection but have never heard about him ever being connected with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. Am I missing something or is this a mistake, i.e. someone's put symphony instead of philharmonic. ? Mickthefish 18:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

- Karajan was indeed conductor of the Vienna Symphony Orchestra in the late 40's and early 50's. That was when his arch-rival Furtwangler was still conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic and kept Karajan out until his death in 1954. As for the Vienna Philharmonic, though Karajan performed with them often, he never held a position there as the VPO did not (and does not) have a 'permanent/principal conductor'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonyhung (talk • contribs) 02:51, 31 July 2007

Discography section is pointless and redundant
There is an excellent free online discography at the Herbert von Karajan Centrum's website, which currently offers details of over 1200 recordings featuring the conductor. Given this, the discography in this article, containing two CDs and four videos, seems a little embarrassing. I'm going to be bold and delete the current discography section and replace it with a link to the complete online discography. Grover cleveland 17:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Sneaky vandalism
"Karajan’s Heldensonate, composed shortly after the German invasion of Austria, and which he had originally titled Anschluß Sonate, was performed in 1938 at one of the Wahnfried receptions Hitler attended annually. That work's only published recording was an April Fool's Day selection for the MusicWeb reviewing site. Its provenance is unclear, and it is not even clear that this disc has ever actually been auditioned." Heh

"Weasel Words"
I find this article very biased against Karajan. Had I not known who Karajan was, upon concluding this article I would be under the impression that not only was Karajan a voluntary and supportive Nazi, he is egotistical and very self-serving. I believe that the author of this article has a very negative take on Karajan and is voicing their negative opinion in the article. Often most of the negative claims are not backed by citations.

Particularly in the Professional Behaviour section, it is very demeaning. There are only two citations used in the entirety of the section and it is not even in regards to major personality-defining trait. For example, the negative connotation to Karajan saying that there is no time for another take of Beethoven's Triple Concerto because of the need for their photographs to be taken could very well be biased. There very well could have been no time for another take, especially if their photographs were pre-paid; furthermore, there is no citation verifying this claim. The following paragraph begins with  "Finally, Karajan was held by some[attribution needed] to be excessively egotistical." Who were these people? How many of these people are there? I am willing to say that there are just as many people who refute this claim. I could find just as many people who would say that he was not egotistical. The author continues the negative, un-cited, generalisations with quoting unknown critics by saying that neither he nor Leonard Bernstein are "unequaled in their mastery of podium histrionics". Once more: who are these critics, when did they say it? For that to be an accurate quote, the pluralisation of critic suggests that multiple critics said that exact statement; I would like to see this properly cited. I also fail to understand how Karajan may be considered as egotistical because of his tendency to conduct with his eyes closed. I suppose that the author may not understand passion. It does not make a singer egotistical because they sing with their eyes closed. When concentrating on particular things such as when the religious pray or meditate it does not make them egotistical; it is them making a connection with their emotions or whatever it is that they are trying to concentrate on.

In the Musicianship section of the article we find negative connotations as well:

"There is widespread agreement that Herbert von Karajan had a special gift for extracting beautiful sounds from an orchestra. Opinion varies concerning the greater aesthetic ends to which The Karajan Sound was applied. The American critic Harvey Sachs criticized the Karajan approach as follows:

Karajan seemed to have opted instead for an all-purpose, highly refined, lacquered, calculatedly voluptuous sound that could be applied, with the stylistic modifications he deemed appropriate, to Bach and Puccini, Mozart and Mahler, Beethoven and Wagner, Schumann and Stravinsky... many of his performances had a prefabricated, artificial quality that those of Toscanini, Furtwängler, and others never had... most of Karajan's records are exaggeratedly polished, a sort of sonic counterpart to the films and photographs of Leni Riefenstahl.[citation needed]

However, it has been argued by commentator Jim Svejda and others that Karajan's pre-1970 manner did not seem as calculatedly polished as it is later alleged to have become.[citation needed]"

Again we see that the author seems to be anti-Karajan. What are the varying opinions concerning the "greater aesthetic ends to which the Karajan Sound was applied"? The author then focuses the rest of Karajan's musicianship as being one that is artificial and exaggerated by quoting un-cited critics and using weasel wording. There are just as many arguments that could counter these claims.

Last time I checked, weasel words are not accepted on Wikipedia - especially without citations.

I've done some to correct grammar and to fix matters of anti Karajan bias. Gingermint (talk) 04:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Karajan and 2001
The recording of the introduction to Thus Spake Zarathustra normally given in connection with the 2001 film is the Deutsche Grammophon 1959 recording of the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Karl Bohm, not the later one on Decca by Karajan. Hence the "Popular Culture" entry in the main article is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.12.115.16 (talk) 04:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The Karajan Decca recording was used in the film, but the Bohm one featured on the soundtrack LPs because Decca didn't want their recordings associated with science fiction. So the info here is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Rafaello di Banfield?
I find no reference to this composer in the entry on Karajan, although he does have an entry for himself on Wikipedia. Maybe the link to the Wikipedia entry on Banfield in the "See Also" section should be removed? 76.243.124.20 (talk) 01:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

pronunciation
How is Karajan pronounced? can someone add that? Thanks. --Rajah (talk) 16:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Ka-ra-jan; all "a" like "hut" and "but", short and clipped; "j" like "y" (yes, yellow)--Andrea 1903 (talk) 02:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

POV Dispute
The part on professional behavior is heavily biased and highly selective. The section is a collection of one-sided, negative aspects of professional behavior and does not reflect the professional achievements of this conductor. The critical portions are given undue attention and all other aspects are dropped.

Similarly, the article is about a conductor and not about a politician. It is highly questionable, if the section on party membership has the same length as the section on musicianship. Moreover, the former section (party membership) lacks many citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.139.199.30 (talk) 19:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see any WP:NPOV violation in the "professional behavior" section. If there are those (I would guess Osborne) who have defended his conduct then by all means add quotes from them.  Cheers.  Grover cleveland (talk) 05:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * NPOV violations are all over the place in the article and have already be mentioned in the Talk page. For example "The "criticism" section of this page, IMHO is well written, well documented, and deserves to be there. But I gotta say that it is so long, and there is so little on the other side, that it seems unbalanced to me." and more in Section 1 of the Talk page. More reasons are given in Sections 9, 12, 14 and 18. Furthermore, the "professional behavior" section very clearly violates the regulations regarding "undue weight" and "fairness of tone" laid done in WP:NPOV. For example, the section does not mention the attentive care the conductor gave to all of his musicians, sending them to medical specialists when they had health problems. Practically every singer who had worked with Karajan in opera productions praises him and his support. His devotion to educating young conductors is not mentioned, his work with the European youth orchestra is not mentioned and nothing is said on the fact that he did not collect fees for most of these supportive events, not even travel fees. This is well documented (not only in Osborne). However, the first attempts to correct the article were reverted without any further thought. Correcting the heavy bias of the article takes some time and effort and will be done, also giving references, over the time. Until this has been done, an NPOV tag seems apropriate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.139.217.202 (talk) 13:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The article was childishly slanted. I've fixed some things but I am sufficiently displeased with the article to suggest a thorough rewrite. Gingermint (talk) 05:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

POV dispute: genealogy
According to, and  Herbert's mother was a Slovene. Do you have any sources disproving the research by Branka Lapajne and others that have led you to claim she was possibly Slovene? I also don't see why Hugo Wolf would not be notable. If you think he is not notable, I invite you to nominate his article for deletion. I also invite you to list at least some of the hundreds of notable musicians or even other notable people that Karajan's family has been related to as you claim. --Eleassar my talk 19:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Concerning this source we should bear in mind:
 * There is no other source besides this article by Slovenian researcher Branka Lapajne who states this (moreover, the very article states that the former theory was that Karajan's mother was of Serbian origin; why igonre that one over this new one? Should we take his word for it?)
 * If we add the Slovenian conductors category, than let's also add the following categories: Serbian conductors, German conductors' (Austrians are Germans, no?), Aromanian conductors, Greek conductors, etc. Anyway, a newspaper article is not enough to allow anybody to make such an add.
 * His relation to Hugo Wolf (that his great-great-great-greatfather married I don't know whose cousin, who in turn married the sister of the brother in law of the great-great-great mother of Hugo Wolf, or something like that...) is irrelevant, unless proven otherwise.
 * On what basis do you claim that "It seems that even he himself knew some of the Slovene language"?. From this paragraph On a visit to Ljubljana in the spring of 1993, Kleiber reported that a congratulatory telegram written in Slovenian was sent to Karajan on his 75th birthday from Zasavje? How does that prove that he knew ("some"!?) Slovenian?

Raborg (talk) 19:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * According to, and  Herbert's mother was a Slovene.
 * and actually repeats, so we're talking about repetition, not about multiple sources Raborg (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have any sources disproving the research by Branka Lapajne and others that have led you to claim she was possibly Slovene?
 * Which are the "other" sources that I am disproving besides those of Lapajne? And do YOU have any other sources proving that have led ANYBODY ELSE BUT LAPANJA & YOU to claim she was Slovene? And I said she was "possibly Slovenian" because one single source is not enough to be certain, and because the fact that Karajan grandfather was born in a town that today is in Slovenia doesn't necessarily mean he was Slovene. Moreover, unlike his paternal origins, there were no contemporany voices who expressed the belief or assumption that Karajan had Slovene origins. Numerous contemporaries mentioned Karajan's Greek or Aromanian origins, but NONE that he had Slovene origins. Raborg (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I also don't see why Hugo Wolf would not be notable. If you think he is not notable, I invite you to nominate his article for deletion. I also invite you to list at least some of the hundreds of notable musicians or even other notable people that Karajan's family has been related to as you claim. --Eleassar my talk 19:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He (more exactly, his "blood" relation to Karajan dating from the 17th century) is not notable in the context of this article. That trivia is relevant only in newspaper articles, not encyclopedia articles. Raborg (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What is trivia to you is important to other people. I find trivia the following sentence: "His great-great-grandfather, Georg Johannes Karajanis was born in Kozani". --Eleassar my talk 20:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Another source is given in the very article: "Towards the end of 2005, I learnt of an article by prof. Dr. Heinz Schöny, long-time custodian and advisor in the history museum in Vienna, who wrote about Karajan’s Slovenian origins in that same daily [ Delo ], March 20, 1985."
 * SOURCES Raborg (talk) 20:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What's with that link? AFAIK Delo qualifies as a reliable source. --Eleassar my talk 20:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

In addition, there is no good reason to assume his mother was of Serbian or Slovak descent. His great grandfather was Mihael Kosmač, which is a Slovene name and surname. The family originates from Mojstrana that does not have either Serbian or Slovak minority.
 * See above. Raborg (talk) 20:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

As for the language, the cited article says "today it is evident that Karajan knew Slovenian, a fact confirmed by his very good friend and conductor Carlos Kleiber." Such claims can be verified. --Eleassar my talk 20:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, probably they can be verified. We'll have to wait until a reputed sources verifies and confirms the claim. Raborg (talk) 20:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, I've modified the article. You're still not satisfied? What's wrong with the current Herbert's family from the maternal side, through his grandfather who was born in the village of Mojstrana, Duchy of Carinthia (today in Slovenia), had Slovenian origins according to one modern genealogical research, thus contrasting with the traditional view which expressed a Serbian or simply a Slavic origin of his mother.? Raborg (talk) 20:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That's fine. I've only corrected 'one modern genealogical research' to 'researches' as at least two sources are available. --Eleassar my talk 20:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Add the second one, if there really is another study (not newspaper article) besides the one of Lapajne who confirms or anticipates his findings. Raborg (talk) 20:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Length of post war section
Isn't this section a bit short? His nazi membership that lasted for six years is more important than fourty years when he was regarded as most influential conductor alive? Anyway, here is example of much better written biograpy: http://www.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/karajan-herbert-von —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.114.163 (talk) 02:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Sections of this article are way too long and a rewrite is needed. Gingermint (talk) 05:05, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Kubrick
(The Blue Danube waltz) was used by director Stanley Kubrick in his science-fiction film 2001: A Space Odyssey (with Kubrick animating the sequence to match the prerecorded music, the opposite of the usual practice for soundtracks).

This is not nearly as uncommon as this quote implies. It is true only for music specifically commissioned for a soundtrack, where the music is usually not finished until the picture editing is nearing completion.

But in cases like this, where an existing track is licensed for use, it's very common to cut your picture to the audio, particularly when you're shooting animation. Hairhorn (talk) 18:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Weasel words everywhere
There are many weasel words, especially in the Nazi membership section. "Critics", "supporters", "many people" all need to be defined or simply removed. 69.245.89.129 (talk) 05:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Beethoven 5th video
Kudos to whoever that added the Karajan/Beethoven 5th video - it shows Karajan at the peak of his career with all of the famed intensity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.183.100 (talk • contribs) 01:26, 26 September 2006

"Gossips" section
Gossips

Some critics, particularly British critic Norman Lebrecht, charged Karajan with initiating a devastating inflationary spiral in performance fees. During his tenure as director of publicly-funded performing organizations such as the Vienna Philharmonic, the Berlin Philharmonic, and the Salzburg Festival, he started paying guest stars exorbitantly, as well as ratcheting up his own remuneration:

During a recording session of the Beethoven Triple Concerto with David Oistrakh, Sviatoslav Richter and Mstislav Rostropovich, pianist Richter demanded an extra take, to which Karajan replied "No, no, we haven't got time, we've still got to do the photographs." This did not prevent violinist Oistrakh from saying, when Karajan turned 65, that he was "the greatest living conductor, a master in every style."
 * Once he possessed orchestras he could have them produce discs, taking the vulture's share of royalties for himself and rerecording favorite pieces for every new technology: digital LPs, CD, videotape, laserdisc. In addition to making it difficult for other conductors to record with his orchestras, von Karajan also drove up the prices that he would be paid and thus other conductors wanted.

I removed the above section and have placed it here for discussion and potential improvement. There's certainly a place in the article for a discussion of Karajan's role in fee inflation, but there isn't enough balance or sourcing here to stop it from being POV. In particular the anecdote about the photographs seems like disconnected sniping. Too, "Gossips" seems like a bad section title. Perhaps if there IS more info on this topic, the section could be titled 'Performance Fees' or something like that. Leoniceno (talk) 01:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)