Talk:Hercule (Dragon Ball)/Archive 1

The pattern for Dragon Ball character naming appears to be that we are using the English language manga names instead of the real Japanese names or the English anime names. This makes sense because the manga is the best translation we have and the names are closer to their Japanese counterparts in most respects. ('Krillin' -> 'Kuririn', 'Goku' -> 'Son Goku', etc.) Hercule / Mr. Satan has not yet appeared in the manga (close, only 10 more chapters to go) so we do not yet know what name will be used. We may need to change the title of this article down the line for consistency. JRP 22:05, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Shonen Jump for August 2004 confirms that 'Hercule' in the official manga name and that Mr. Satan is is wrestling identity. JRP 16:35, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If anyone cares, other than me, a Google search reveals that "Mr. Satan" is the perferred name for the character. I will have no objections to renaming the page again. However, ALL current US forms of Dragon Ball (manga, anime, card games, etc.) use "Hercule" as the name. I imagine that the pendulum will swing that way over time as fewer percent of the fanbase becomes aquainted with the character until the Japanese name. JRP 01:09, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC) On second thought, I disagree with my last statement. The relative frequency of the "Mr. Satan" name does not take away from its being considered offensive by people of several major world religions. Purely on that basis, we should make the exception and keep Hercule as the dominant name. JRP 01:11, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A passer by who used to be a fan of DBZ too, and I think of two points:


 * I believe that Toriyama is really using this character to parody Christian Satan -- His earlier comics did have such parody (e.g. Superman in Dr. Slump).
 * This article is English so it's necessary to retain Hercule since this should be readers' default. Leave Mr.Satan for Japanese and Chinese entries.

Mr. Satan is used in various Uncut DVDs. Thusly, it is the English name, and cannot be argued. You can't argue that Hercule is his English name. It's his censored name. And you can't argue religion, because you'd have to delete Hitler. Wikipedia isn't censorship, and thusly should not be censored. Let fact come out and people get their underwear get in a knot. I will change the name of the article, and I'll keep it that way even if it gets me banned. It's used in the English anime Uncut, and therefore, is the proper name for the page. --A Link to the Past 09:50, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

I really hate that argument. The common English name is Hercule (and the English manga acknowledges he is "Mr. Satan" in the Japanese version). It doesn't matter if it is edited. Hercule is the common English name and it shall be used. In addition, Wikipedia isn't bowdlerizing anything, since it mentions the "real" name. WhisperToMe 23:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

If you ask me the page should be titled Mr.Satan as that was his origonal name, IE the name Toriyama gave him. Who cares if that's his english name? His name was only changed as a form of censorship. As Mr.Satan is the name the creator gave him and Hercule is the name the dubbing company gave the name used should be the one the creator gave him. Use Mr.Satan and just put Hercule in parenthesies.

Starone 19:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Starone and A Link to the Past. He is only called Hercule in the English Censored Anime & Manga (both for censorship reasons), the french anime because it's already used and the Video Games because the name is probably more well known. Even so, calling this article "Hercule" when his name was just changed for censorship reasons or for a few other things is just retarded. It's just as bad as when Zoro's name in the "Roranoa Zoro" article kept being changed to "Zolo" just because of the name change in the english anime and manga.

Why not name the article Hercule Satan? That is his full name.Buster Sword 23:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Buster Sword


 * Not in the manga, which is our highest level of canon. I'm going to cast for using Mr. Satan as well. Beowulph 22:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Well since it's 4 against 1 for using Mr.Satan over Hercule, I'm just going to go and change it now.

Starone 15:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I also move that all instances of "Hercule" in the article be replaced with either "Mr.Satan" or "Satan".

Starone 16:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree about changing the page to Mr. Satan but I don't think it's necessary to put *Hercule* in the title. References to Hercule should just be redirected.--GeneralDuke 00:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Some of you said we should use the manga name. I just bought a volume of the manga yesterday, and it called the character Hercule, saying his name when he was still a wrestler was Mr. Satan. On every other article I've been on DBZ related, people have forced tha name to be the manga name, so I guess we can't use Mr. Satan. It's either Hercule or Hercule Satan, according to the manga. Buster Sword 13:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC) Buster Sword

That's the ENGLISH MANGA, not the original. He was known only as Mr. Satan in the original and was never a wrestler. Viz just made up that side story because they only were to mention his name once in the manga, as they censored it so it could recevive an A for All Ages rating. I guess I can except Hercule Satan, but not regular Hercule.-LL

Isn't it more likely 'Pan' refers to bread (the other side of her family's naming-theme) than the Roman god?

Patrickov 15:37, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna go ahead and agree that this article needs to be changed to Mr. Satan, since Hercule is a name only in the edited dub and is not canonical.--GeneralDuke 22:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

(in the Japanese Version, Goku is cheered on by the viewers, but he is booed in the English Version)
Whoever wrote that is wrong, I watched both versions. (English and Japanese) And the dialogue is pretty much the same in both versions.PNFProudNintendoFan

New name
The new *Hercule* name violates WP:NAME. We can't move it back because of the redirect history so I've asked for the redirect to be deleted so that this page can be moved back. JRP 01:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you be more specific as to which section it violates?--GeneralDuke 01:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure. Let's start with the big one: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
 * After that, "Use common names of persons and things", "Avoid non alpha-numeric characters used only for emphasis". Also, "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) starts from the idea that names in the format   are usually the least problematic as page name for an article on a single person." This asterisked name doesn't fit that. I also challenge you to find another article that represents translation differences using the asterisk convention.
 * I'd saw either "Hercule" or "Mr. Satan" are fine. But not both. JRP 02:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I find the offensiveness not as compelling (we don't censor in Wikipedia, and besides, there are people named Satan, eg Miroslav Satan) as what a search engine is most likely to use. I do think Hercule (Dragon Ball) as the main title and Mr. Satan as a redirect is fine.  --ColourBurst 05:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would say the article should just be named Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball). That is the character's original name and as I've pointed out, Hercule was made up solely for the edited dub and isn't canon. If someone searches for Hercule, it should redirect here. The same rule already applies to the Vegetto article. (In that case, Vegetto is the established name, and searching for Vegerot, the name in the manga, redirects there.)--GeneralDuke 05:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to be anal, I should mention that you don't need the disambiguation identifier "(Dragon Ball)" if there's no other conflict wit that name. So Mr. Satan by itself is a fine name. Though I'm not sure whether that or Hercule is the better name overall anymore. JRP 12:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Have any of you read the manga? It names him Hercule in the English manga (which is not edited, as the manga also says dammit, go to hell, and it also contains characters getting their head chopped off) It then says Mr. Satan is his ring name. That means his official name is Hercule, probably Hercule Satan. Refuseing to call him Hercule, apparently his canon english name by both the anime and manga now, is a violation of quality standards. Buster Sword 17:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC) Buster Sword

Buster, the English manga IS censored. For example, A certain scene in Trunks' future has Android 17's gun edited out when it was there in the origonal being pointed at an old man. And in the Majin Buu saga the guns of the two gunmen that shoot the puppy and Mr.Satan were changed to laser guns when they were origonally real guns (I believe the wounds caused by the guns were cleaned up as well but I'm not 100% sure about that). Not to mention Android 16's Hell's Flash being changed to Inferno Blast. The use of the name Hercule in the English manga is as much a form of censorship as it is in the dub. Look for some fan translated scanslations of the manga, I gurantee you will not find even one sentence that reffers to him as Hercule. In the origonal Japanese manga it's Mr.Satan and only Mr.Satan.

Starone 19:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an English site, for one thing. Also, MOST of the Manga is not censored, and the manga is not censored because they are afraid of calling him Mr. Satan. It refers to him as Mr. Satan in that same volume. They simply give the explanation that he mainly goes by Hercule now, Mr. Satan being the name his fans know him by, as he was a pro wrestler. I know Hercule probably wasn't in the Japanese version, but since than, many sources just went ahead and called him Hercule Satan as his full name. It was done because half of the world knew the character as Mr. Satan, the other half knew Hercule. They decided to favor neither party and instead made it a win-win. His name has often been known as Hercule Satan. By this logic, both are right. Mr. Satan would be his name, just as a guy named John Smith, would be Mr. Smith, but Hercule is also right, because that seems to be his first name. I'm aware Hercule wasn't in the original, but since then, official sources did a very reasonable thing. They let both sides of the argument win by reffering to him as Hercule Satan. I see no reason why we can't make the same compromise and name this article "Hercule Satan." Buster Sword 19:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Buster Sword

This site (regardless of what language it's in) is also about providing information as accurately as possible. That pro wrestler name explination (And BTW, Mr.Satan was never a wrestler in the origional Japanese version) is something exclusive to the English version made to justify their use of the censored name. And I've read enough of the english manga to know that the name Mr.Satan is pretty much never uttered outside of the little character description at the begining of the volume. You sound like you're grasping at straws in your explination of why they used the name Hercule. The most likely reason is because they didn't want to risk pissing off anyone so they removed the name Mr.Satan and replaced it with a more safer name. That's all there is to it. And you say that Hercule is his first name while Satan is his last name, well even going by the logic of the English dub you're wrong. The English dub says that Mr.Satan was a stage name only and that Hercule is his "real" name. Just like someone has a stage name of Mr.Evil but their real name is Fred Williams (the English manga didn't make up a last name to go with Hercule though). I've been a fan of DBZ for a long time and this is the first time I've ever heard him reffered to as "Hercule Satan". I really don't think there's anyone that seriously calls him Hercule Satan except you. From what I've seen fans either reffer to him as Mr.Satan or Hercule, not both. When things are altered in the localization process like this was, the origional Japanese manga is the only thing that should be regarded in terms of what is official or not since everything in there is what Toriyama, the author of the story, wrote. And in this case, Hercule is just a name created by the English manga to censor his origional name, Mr.Satan.

Starone 23:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, Akira Toriyama himself stated that he based Mr. Satan off of Pro Wrestlers, as a pun. That's why he acts like a showoff, and isn't as great as he claims to be. I have heard stuff call the character Hercule Satan in the past. We should just compromise, and name this article Hercule Satan. Then, both sides of the debate are correct, and it makes sense to people who know the american version and also those familiar with the original. 70.108.115.133 00:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Buster Sword

Maybe he did, but Mr.Satan is still more of a martial artist that a wrestler. Hercule Satan just sounds too wierd to be used. Either Mr.Satan or Hercule, I'm still for Mr.Satan.

Starone 02:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Mr.Satan *Hercule* (Dragon Ball) → Hercule (Dragon Ball) … Rationale: Moved by User:Starone, but name does not adhere for WP:NAME for reasons on Talk page. The page can be "Mr. Satan" or "Hercule (Dragon Ball), but not this weird mix of both. … —JRP 03:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * Support per nom and WP:NAME . Use redirects for multiple valid names, not bundling. --Dhartung | Talk 07:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The nom should be withdrawn and put forward either at Mr. Satan or use with approval voting. --Dhartung | Talk 03:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per above. Kafziel 17:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Hercule is not a translation of his Japanese name, but a full blown change from it. Starone 23:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Hercule is a name only heard in the edited FUNimation dub and created by FUNimation, it was not created by either Toriyama or Toei, it is not heard in the Japanese version or even any other dubs, and it is not canon.--GeneralDuke 02:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I used above. I offer no opinion on whether Hercule or Mr. Satan should be chosen, only that the current naming convention is unacceptable. I used for the WP:RM the previous name of the page only, which seemed like a logical place to fall back to. JRP 04:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, page should be moved to Mr. Satan per the uncut dub and original subtitles, and not what aired on Cartoon Network a few years back. Voice of Treason 00:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Since this is the English Wiki the policy is to use the official English name, which in both the dub and the manga(which IS considered canon) his English name is given as Hercule. TJ Spyke 03:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments


 * I put Hercule in the title as a sort of compromise for those that wanted Hercule, but I'm all for it being just Mr.Satan. Starone 19:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear: if this request passes, the page will be moved to Hercule (Dragon Ball), with "Mr. Satan" as a redirect. Kafziel 19:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This is rediculous. The name has been, for many years now, Mr. Satan. Hercule was only formed out of censorship. The fact that some people refer to him as Hercule is irrelevant. I don't see why there's even an issue here; the page name should just be Mr. Satan or Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball).--GeneralDuke 02:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no opinion one way or the other. I have no idea what these little things are called. All I know is that the title as it is isn't acceptable. Now that the moveoptions template is here, if everyone likes Mr. Satan, that's fine, too. Pick one and go with it. Kafziel 04:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This page got moved to Hercule (Dragon Ball) despite this matter still being open. I moved it to Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball). I would have used the *Hercule* part as it was before, but it appears it shouldn't be named this anyway.--GeneralDuke 23:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems to have been reverted. I'm not sure where all of this stands now since the WP:RM is still open. I'll close it shortly. As for the correct name, that is trickier. You could always raise the question to WP:AN/I, but that might be overkill. We should be able to solve a simple question of article naming ourselves. You obviously have a strong opinion on the subject (which agree with in part, but which I don't think warrants a name change) and the difficulty with the old name was that it violated convention rather than simply being one that we disagreed with. At least, that's how I read the situation. JRP 01:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "# Oppose. Hercule is a name only heard in the edited FUNimation dub and created by FUNimation, it was not created by either Toriyama or Toei, it is not heard in the Japanese version or even any other dubs, and it is not canon.--GeneralDuke 02:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)" - Not true - The VIZ English manga uses it - as do the latest English-language video games (some of the early ones used to use "Mr. Satan", but all the games have switched to Hercule) - And, yes the old name violated convention. WhisperToMe 02:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Since this is the English Wiki the policy is to use the official English name, which in both the dub and the manga(which IS considered canon) his English name is given as Hercule. TJ Spyke 03:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hercule is not his official name. There is nothing to indicate that a name made up by Funimation due to censorship is official. Doesn't the uncut dub name him Mr. Satan anyway?--GeneralDuke 19:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the matter closed now? Or is it still open to change?

Starone 22:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess it was resolved by the move. I don't know if it is... WhisperToMe 19:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Guys, Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball) should be used. Mr. Satan is the official name. It's the same with Tien and Tenshinhan. Just don't make it "Mr.Satan *Hercule* (Dragon Ball)". What the hell kind of name is that? I'll move the page myself in about an hour if I don't get any objections.-- Koji Dude  00:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, the move is really poorly done. This is going to be really confusing for readers.-- Koji Dude  00:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The English manga(which is considered official) says his real name is Hercule with Mr. Satan being his characters name. So it shoud stay at "Hercule (Dragon Ball)". TJ Spyke 03:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr.Satan is the official name given in both the original manga, which is the highest level of cannon. While Viz has it as 'Hercule', we must remember that even though it is the english manga, and it is changed for the exact same reason it was changed for the English dub. Not to mention the manga is edited. Even though it IS the English Wikipedia, a lot of the Dragon Ball articles use their original Japanese naming (Son Goku, Vegetto, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, etc). I think this should have the exact same treatment, and have it as 'Mr.Satan'. VelocityEX 22:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't reopen too soon. Wait a little while. WhisperToMe 14:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I believe we need to reopen the discussion on getting it changed back to Mr. Satan.GeneralDuke 13:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * okay. in the original, japanese manga, he is called Mr. Satan. in the Japanese anime, Mr. Satan. In the first censored english dub, Hercule. i believe FUNi got the name "Hercule" from the French dub, where they already had another character (Piccolo i think?) called Satan. In more recent, uncensored English dubs (such as the newer movies) he's called Mr. Satan. And in Viz's translated manga, they generally call him Hercule while mentioning that he is also called Mr. Satan. also, in at least one of the video games they call him Hercule, but have a big poster behind him that says "MR SATAN". only one form of media calls him Hercule exclusively (except the french dub, but as stated earlier this is an English Wikipedia). I think the article title and content should reflect the original name of the character as well as the most updated English name. when Star Wars first came out, it was simply called "Star Wars", now its called "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope". So this article should use the conventions in the most recent releases of the English dub, where he's called Mr Satan. Plough | talk to me 00:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)