Talk:Hercule (Dragon Ball)/Archive 2

NOTE: Some votes were added after the debate ended. This http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hercule_%28Dragon_Ball%29&diff=88492412&oldid=88452786 shows the votes as the debate was closed

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hercule_%28Dragon_Ball%29&diff=89981815&oldid=89972296 - VelocityEX added his after closing

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hercule_%28Dragon_Ball%29&diff=88099309&oldid=88064001 - The "John Pannozi" vote was from an anonymous IP address

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Huw+Moore - Huw Moore, who also cast a support vote, has less than 50 edits as of November 25, 2006 - He edited infrequently since February 26, 2006
 * I added the four notes WhisperToMe 04:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no consensus for any proposed move. It's always a bummer when such a long argument fails to reach consensus, but it does happen. There is clear opposition to every move that has been proposed, so the page will remain where it is now. — Mets501 (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC) =Requested move=
 * Hercule (Dragon Ball) → Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball) —(Discuss)— The character's original name is "Mr. Satan", and that name is used in official English translations. —DesireCampbell 02:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I propose that, if the move is approved, Mr. Satan would be the correct new title, not Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball). There is no need for disambiguation with that name, unlike for Hercule. JRP 03:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed -- DesireCampbell 04:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed -- DesireCampbell 04:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

To answer a few repeating questions: Yes, there was another request 4 days ago. You can see it below. There was absolutely no support for it. -- DesireCampbell 06:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The vote isn't over yet though. I wish people would actually follow procedures here, this is like an AFD fails and somebody nominates it again the same day. TJ Spyke 06:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I appologise, I thought we need only wait a few days. The poll had six votes by the end of the day, one more the following day, and another one (the last) three days later. All "Oppose". I didn't expect to get 9 "Support"s any time soon. -- DesireCampbell 06:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~ 
 * Support - (see Discussion below) -- DesireCampbell 02:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - There's no ounce of debate to this. - VegettoEX 02:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose WhisperToMe 03:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose--SUI T What?  42 03:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose First, there is already a move discussion ongoing, so this should be closed. Second, he has been called both "Hercule" and "Mr. Satan" in official sources (and sometimes in the same manga/movie/episode). TJ Spyke 03:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Mr. Satan is the more correct name, but "Hercule" has almost three times as many hits according to the Google test ("mr. satan" dragonball vs hercule dragonball). Given that the majority of sources, including some official sources use this name, there is not enough justification to change from the status quo. (If this were a "Dragon Ball Wiki", I would have Mr. Satan as the name. But it's not, it's Wikipedia.) JRP 03:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * NOTE: I would have voted oppose, but I voted on this previously and was informed of this vote by WhisperToMe. This may be against WP:SPAM's "Votestacking" clause (which I was a proponent for) and so it would be hypocritical of me to violate this rule now. JRP 03:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support His Japanese name is Mr. Satan. His uncut dub name is Mr. Satan. It's mentioned in the manga his name is Mr. Satan. The article should be called Mr. Satan. Takuthehedgehog 03:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Hercule is by far the most commone English name for him, and has been uses in offical English sources. Therefore Wikipedia policy dictates that he should stay at Hercule (most common name + used in many official sources). Not to mention, there is already a requested move going on and so an Admin should close this request. Edgecution 05:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Support Like I've said countless times before, Mr.Satan is his proper name. Starone 05:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * His "proper" name? -_- Wikipedia conventions say to use the most common official English name. Hercule IS one of his official names and is by far the most common recognizable name for him. That is reason alone for it to stay at its current name. TJ Spyke 06:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * what does "by far" mean? Is there any way to back that up? I'm not trying to accuse you of using weasel words, but to say that "Hercule" is more well-known than Mr. Satan without any kind of proof to back it up is against Wikipedia conventions. -- DesireCampbell 06:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A Google search brings up twice as many hits for the Hercule name than the Mr. Satan name, most English merchandise (like the trading card game, video games, the majority of the DVDs, etc.) use Hercule. The official DBZ site uses Hercule, even some of the manga and uncut DVDs use BOTH Hercule and Mr. Satan. So like I said, being the most common English name for him AND being an official English name for him (both of which are policies regarding Anime characters here) means that the article should remain at "Hercule (Dragon Ball)". TJ Spyke 07:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And a Google search for '+satan dbz dragon ball' gets twice as many results as '+hercule dbz dragon ball'. Further, searching for '+satan dragonball dbz -hercule' gets three times as many results as '+hercule dragonball dbz -satan'. But I'm not here to argue about which name is more well known - there's evidence for both sides - I'm here to try and convince you that correct information is more important than "currently popular" information. You bring up the "official DBZ site", which site is that? Some how I don't think you mean Toei.com. That would be the "oficial" site, funimation.com would be an "official lisencee's site". This is one of many articles about a Japanese meta-series. First and foremost, this is a page about something from Japan. English adaptations should be talked about heavily (as this is the English Wikipedia) but, and please stay with me on this, this is not an article about a single company's adaptation of another company's property. The scope of this information is beyond that. This is an article about "The fictional character Mr. Satan from the meta-series 'Dragon Ball' written by Akira Toriyama, published Shueisha and Toei, and distributed by various distribution companies around the world.", this article is not about "Hercule, the fictional character from the viz comic book 'Dragon Ball Z'". The scope of this information goes beyond that, this article is about more than one company's distribution. -- DesireCampbell 07:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support I don't understand, how does being a more common name in the United States make Hercule more official? I highly doubt anyone calls him that in Japan, Dragon Ball's country of origin. CurlyJ 06:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Curly, the Wikipedia policy is to use the English names, not the Romanized version of the Japanese names. And the policy is also to use the most common English name. TJ Spyke 07:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Romanized, his name would be something along the lines of: Misuta Satan, Mr. Satan is English. (the name, that is) I thought this would've been established by now. CurlyJ 07:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * TJ, I was under the impression that Wikipedia's guidelines were to provide accurrate information. -- DesireCampbell 07:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Policy on article naming is to use the most common term. If this is a misnomer it should be explained in the lead. Rich Farmbrough, 09:57 15 November 2006 (GMT).

Yes his PROPER name. The name Toriyama (the character's creator) gave him should automatically be more "official" than the name a single dubbing company gave him. I don't understand why we're taking the dubbing company's word over the creator of the series'. Hercule is less accurate than Mr.Satan because it's not the name Toriyama gave him. And besides, the most common perception isn't always the accurate one. What if 2+2=5 became more commonly accepted (and even officially endorsed) than the correct equasion of 2+2=4? Starone 17:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd like to take this time to point out that even though Wikipedia guidelines do state that an article should be the most common term for English speakers, it is also a Wikipedia guideline to disregard any guidelines in the event that they may force the article to worsen. After all, these are guidelines not regulations. -- DesireCampbell 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"No distribution company's translations are to be relied upon exclusively. There are too many distribution companies to be able to choose one as more official than another. Further, all distribution companies have had problems with their adaptations - no company is free from fault." There you have it.VelocityEX 07:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support As per arguments given. Huw Moore 21:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - If we use Kuririn as an article name. then must must use Mr. Satan as an article name for consistancy. - John Pannozzi 68.1.184.179 00:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not good rationale; the sole reason we use Kuririn is simple; it's used in the English language manga, which uses Hercule! SCORE! WhisperToMe 14:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support This is fucking ridiculousVelocityEX
 * Very funny, WhispertoMe. So what about Vegetto, eh?

Then why do we use the name Coola when the dub used Cooler? Why do we use Yi Xing Long when the dub is Omega Shenron. Why do we use Hell's Flash when it was "Inferno Blast" and "Blaster's Fire" in the English manga and dub? Starone 17:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Firstly, the character's name is Mr. Satan. There can be no debate about this. He was never written to be Joe, or Super Larry, or even Hercule. This character is referred to as "Mr. Satan", he lives in "Satan City" (it's even spelled out in English ), his daughter is named Videl (an anagram of "Devil"). His name is quite clearly "Mr. Satan", there is no debate about the character's name.

Now, the problem arises as to what the article should be called. Should it be Mr. Satan, or some other name. Why would it ever be any other name? Well, if he was never called "Mr. Satan" in any English translation of the meta-series, then there would be some cause to use a more widely known name, but that's not the case. "Mr. Satan" is used in the official US uncut dub. Even if that were not so, if Mr. Satan was only ever referred to as "Hercule" or "Master Handsome" or "Mister Savage" using one of those names instead of his actual name would go against the standard procedure of other Dragon Ball characters on Wikipedia. Most characters are listed as, and referred to, their actual names, even when such names are not the "most common" English translation. -- DesireCampbell 02:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The policy on Wikipedia (which means several Dragon Ball related articles will have to be fixed) is to go by the most common/official English name. He has gone by both Hercule and Mr. Satan in official English sources (and sometime by both. For example, he was called Hercule and Mr. Satan in Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn). Either his full name is "Hercule Satan" (which is reasonable) or his name is Hercule and "Mr. Satan" just his stage name. Also, this discussion shouldn't have started since there is already a move request going on. TJ Spyke 03:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Hercule Satan" is not reasonable, it's wrong. "Hercule" is not reasonable, it's wrong. Why should his name include "Hercule" at all? Are we going to change Majin Boo to "Djin Boo", as his name appears in the Viz manga? Are we going to change Piccolo to "Big Green Piccolo" because the UK dub calls him "Big Green"? Are we going to change the Kintoun's article to "Magic Cloud"? Why should we knowingly perpetuate incorrect facts? -- DesireCampbell 03:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Djinn Boo wouldn't be a bad choice, because it is "official", but it fails the Google test. Similarly, Mr. Satan fails the Google test even though it is also "official". (And you can't claim that it is more official than Djinn Boo since that is a reasonable romazation of the original Japanese, just not what we're used to.) By that logic, Hercule is still the right choice. JRP 04:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a considerable difference between "Djin Boo" and "Hercule". "Djin" is an attempt to translate "Ma jin". It's not a bad translation, per say, it's just odd considering all the "M"s. "Hercule", on the other hand, is obviously a censorship issue. One that was corrected in Funimation's dual-language DVD releases and uncut dub.

Logically, we should use the correct names unless they are so obscure that noone would have heard of them. "Mr. Satan" is not obscure.

Obviously we have to choose one name for the character, ostensibly we should choose one of the official English translations. At least one of these official translations is "Mr. Satan". Why would we choose one that we know is incorrect? -- DesireCampbell 04:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hercule is not incorrect. That has been used in offical sources (including the uncut TV episodes and movies, I just watched one of the uncut movied where they called him both Hercule and Mr. Satan). TJ Spyke 05:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Then that was a mistake, just like when they called Goku's Ryuken "Dragon Fire" even though they'd used "Dragon fist" before. It's not correct just because an official licensee did it. An "official" UK dub calls Piccolo "Big Green". That dub is no more or less "official" than Funimation's. "Official" isn't the point. "Correct" is the point. Why would another language adaptation be considered more correct than the original language's? "Mr. Satan" is correct. There is no debate about that, right? No one can honestly debate that the character's name is anything other than Mr. Satan. Noone is debating that. The discussion here is about whether to put the article under Mr. Satan, the name of the character in the series original form, in the Funimation uncut dub and Japanese dub/English subtitle DVDs, or one of the other names used in the various English dubs. None of these English dubs are more "official" than any other, so how should we choose which one to use? Perhaps we shouldn't choose any of them. Perhaps we should simply call the character by his real name, avoiding any confusion over who the character is. -- DesireCampbell 06:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this is getting ridiculous
TJ Spyke and WhisperToMe I'm sure mean well, but changing the article from "Mr. Satan" to "Hercule" is against the general consensus, differs from standard practices with other articles, and is just plain wrong.

Firstly, the character's name is Mr. Satan. There can be no debate about this. He was never written to be Joe, or Super Larry, or even Hercule. This character is referred to as "Mr. Satan", he lives in "Satan City" (it's even spelled out in English ), his daughter is named Videl (an anagram of "Devil"). His name is quite clearly "Mr. Satan", there is no debate about the character's name.

Now, the problem arises as to what the article should be called. Should it be Mr. Satan, or some other name. Why would it ever be any other name? Well, if he was never called "Mr. Satan" in any English translation of the meta-series, then there would be some cause to use a more widely known name, but that's not the case. "Mr. Satan" is used in the official US uncut dub. Even if that were not so, if Mr. Satan was only ever referred to as "Hercule" or "Master Handsome" or "Mister Savage" using one of those names instead of his actual name would go against the standard procedure of other Dragon Ball characters on Wikipedia. Most characters are listed as, and referred to, their actual names, even when such names are not the "most common" English translation.

Furthermore, a consensus was reached (see the first survey below) to move the article from Hercule (Dragon Ball) to Mr. Satan.

I'm switching the article back to saying "Mr. Satan", not "Hercule". And I'm leaving the article at Hercule (Dragon Ball) only because I am extremely patient. I can see no reason why the idea that this article should remain at Hercule (Dragon Ball) should even be considered. -- DesireCampbell 13:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Archived Talk
I've archived the old discussion because it was WAY too cluttered. Instead of trying to make sense of the chaos, I decided to Be Bold. Please use the "+" button at the top to add a topic, instead of "Edit this page". Instead of editing the page itself, click "Edit" on the right hand side of the topic, and add the comment to the end. Thanks in advance. Teh Shingen 21:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Dude, you're not meant to archive current discussions, and we were still talking about whether or not the article should be called Mr. Satan rather than Hercule Plough | talk to me 22:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I retrieved the archived discussion and copied and pasted it over here so the discussion can continue and your problem will be resolved (well, one at least). 65.2.58.105 22:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The name "Mr. Satan" is mentioned as his name in the Viz translation. Since your so bent on pushing "American" names on people, take a look at Vegetto. His name is a combination of Vegeta and Kakarotto. Since his name is Kakarott in the dub, this makes no sense. Also you use Hercule being used in the Viz comic to justify calling him that name. The Viz comic also calls Majin Buu: djinn Boo, Vegetto: Vegerot. The American translation is in no way shape or form the "official" version.

Requested move
Mr.Satan *Hercule* (Dragon Ball) → Hercule (Dragon Ball) … Rationale: Moved by User:Starone, but name does not adhere for WP:NAME for reasons on Talk page. The page can be "Mr. Satan" or "Hercule (Dragon Ball), but not this weird mix of both. … —JRP 03:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * Support per nom and WP:NAME . Use redirects for multiple valid names, not bundling. --Dhartung | Talk 07:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The nom should be withdrawn and put forward either at Mr. Satan or use with approval voting. --Dhartung | Talk 03:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per above. Kafziel 17:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - WhisperToMe 00:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Hercule is not a translation of his Japanese name, but a full blown change from it. Starone 23:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Hercule is a name only heard in the edited FUNimation dub and created by FUNimation, it was not created by either Toriyama or Toei, it is not heard in the Japanese version or even any other dubs, and it is not canon.--GeneralDuke 02:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I used above. I offer no opinion on whether Hercule or Mr. Satan should be chosen, only that the current naming convention is unacceptable. I used for the WP:RM the previous name of the page only, which seemed like a logical place to fall back to. JRP 04:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, page should be moved to Mr. Satan per the uncut dub and original subtitles, and not what aired on Cartoon Network a few years back. Voice of Treason 00:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Since this is the English Wiki the policy is to use the official English name, which in both the dub and the manga(which IS considered canon) his English name is given as Hercule. TJ Spyke 03:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Page should be moved to Mr. Satan because it's used in the uncut dub, in the Japanese version subtitles, mentioned in the manga, and is used almost everywhere else in the world. Takuthehedgehog 00:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support-Per TJ Spyke--SUI T 42 17:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Page should be moved to Mr. Satan. "Mr. Satan" is the name of the character in the original work, and the name is used in the official translation (including the English dub). -- DesireCampbell 17:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments


 * I put Hercule in the title as a sort of compromise for those that wanted Hercule, but I'm all for it being just Mr.Satan. Starone 19:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear: if this request passes, the page will be moved to Hercule (Dragon Ball), with "Mr. Satan" as a redirect. Kafziel 19:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This is rediculous. The name has been, for many years now, Mr. Satan. Hercule was only formed out of censorship. The fact that some people refer to him as Hercule is irrelevant. I don't see why there's even an issue here; the page name should just be Mr. Satan or Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball).--GeneralDuke 02:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no opinion one way or the other. I have no idea what these little things are called. All I know is that the title as it is isn't acceptable. Now that the moveoptions template is here, if everyone likes Mr. Satan, that's fine, too. Pick one and go with it. Kafziel 04:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This page got moved to Hercule (Dragon Ball) despite this matter still being open. I moved it to Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball). I would have used the *Hercule* part as it was before, but it appears it shouldn't be named this anyway.--GeneralDuke 23:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems to have been reverted. I'm not sure where all of this stands now since the WP:RM is still open. I'll close it shortly. As for the correct name, that is trickier. You could always raise the question to WP:AN/I, but that might be overkill. We should be able to solve a simple question of article naming ourselves. You obviously have a strong opinion on the subject (which agree with in part, but which I don't think warrants a name change) and the difficulty with the old name was that it violated convention rather than simply being one that we disagreed with. At least, that's how I read the situation. JRP 01:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "# Oppose. Hercule is a name only heard in the edited FUNimation dub and created by FUNimation, it was not created by either Toriyama or Toei, it is not heard in the Japanese version or even any other dubs, and it is not canon.--GeneralDuke 02:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)" - Not true - The VIZ English manga uses it - as do the latest English-language video games (some of the early ones used to use "Mr. Satan", but all the games have switched to Hercule) - And, yes the old name violated convention. WhisperToMe 02:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Since this is the English Wiki the policy is to use the official English name, which in both the dub and the manga(which IS considered canon) his English name is given as Hercule. TJ Spyke 03:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hercule is not his official name. There is nothing to indicate that a name made up by Funimation due to censorship is official. Doesn't the uncut dub name him Mr. Satan anyway?--GeneralDuke 19:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the matter closed now? Or is it still open to change?

Starone 22:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess it was resolved by the move. I don't know if it is... WhisperToMe 19:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Guys, Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball) should be used. Mr. Satan is the official name. It's the same with Tien and Tenshinhan. Just don't make it "Mr.Satan *Hercule* (Dragon Ball)". What the hell kind of name is that? I'll move the page myself in about an hour if I don't get any objections.-- Koji Dude  00:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, the move is really poorly done. This is going to be really confusing for readers.-- Koji Dude  00:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The English manga(which is considered official) says his real name is Hercule with Mr. Satan being his characters name. So it shoud stay at "Hercule (Dragon Ball)". TJ Spyke 03:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr.Satan is the official name given in both the original manga, which is the highest level of cannon. While Viz has it as 'Hercule', we must remember that even though it is the english manga, and it is changed for the exact same reason it was changed for the English dub. Not to mention the manga is edited. Even though it IS the English Wikipedia, a lot of the Dragon Ball articles use their original Japanese naming (Son Goku, Vegetto, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, etc). I think this should have the exact same treatment, and have it as 'Mr.Satan'. VelocityEX 22:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't reopen too soon. Wait a little while. WhisperToMe 14:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I believe we need to reopen the discussion on getting it changed back to Mr. Satan.GeneralDuke 13:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * okay. in the original, japanese manga, he is called Mr. Satan. in the Japanese anime, Mr. Satan. In the first censored english dub, Hercule. i believe FUNi got the name "Hercule" from the French dub, where they already had another character (Piccolo i think?) called Satan. In more recent, uncensored English dubs (such as the newer movies) he's called Mr. Satan. And in Viz's translated manga, they generally call him Hercule while mentioning that he is also called Mr. Satan. also, in at least one of the video games they call him Hercule, but have a big poster behind him that says "MR SATAN". only one form of media calls him Hercule exclusively (except the french dub, but as stated earlier this is an English Wikipedia). I think the article title and content should reflect the original name of the character as well as the most updated English name. when Star Wars first came out, it was simply called "Star Wars", now its called "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope". So this article should use the conventions in the most recent releases of the English dub, where he's called Mr Satan. Plough | talk to me 00:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "So this article should use the conventions in the most recent releases of the English dub, where he's called Mr Satan." - What English dub? Do you mean the uncut one? Isn't he Hercule Satan in that dub? WhisperToMe 19:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

No he is not. He's Mr.Satan in the uncut dub. I don't know where people keep getting this Hercule Satan nonsense from. Starone 15:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Could we continue the debate? he's names Mr. Satan in the uncut dub, and in the original version, so that should be used. Takuthehedgehog 03:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is there even a discussion about this? His name is Mr. Satan - end of discussion. The name "Hercule" was used in one version of one company's dub (and not in either of the other two versions). There is no reason why the article should be under "Hercule". DesireCampbell 03:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... 1. Hercule is in many of the newer English-language video games... 2. Hercule is in the English-language manga. WhisperToMe 03:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And the article should mention that he is sometimes "Hercule", but it is not the correct name. I can see why the article should be kept at Hercule if he was never called Mr. Satan, but that's not the case. DesireCampbell 04:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Why do you say Mr. Satan is correct (your words, not mine) while Hercule isn't? Is it because you hold the viewpoint that the original Japanese name is correct? If so, sorry. We use the names best for an Anglophone audience. That means sometimes using dub names. WhisperToMe 04:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Even the English manga acknowledges that his name was Mr.Satan in the Japanese manga. Hercule is used as a form of censorship and it's not the name Toriyama gave him. What the author intended (not to mention what was there origionally) should take priority over a silly little need to conform to "dub/English only". And if any verison is correct it's the Japanese version since it came first and is the origonal work (this is a JAPANESE show after all). Besides, based on this and past discussions on the matter (the SUPPORT/OPPOSE survey had a 5 to 3 decision in favor of changing the title to Mr.Satan), most people here want it changed to Mr.Satan anyway so why continue to subbornly conform to this seemingly unpopular decision?

And like I and others have told you a thousand times before: He's called MR.SATAN in the UNCUT ENGLISH DUB, so your argument of "dub/Englsih only" ultimately becomes moot.

Starone 04:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand that en.Wikipedia articles should use English names, that's not at debate here. If there was never any use of "Mr. Satan" in any English language version of DragonBall, then yes, the article should be under Hercule and the character should be referred to as Hercule - but that's not the case.
 * What is his name in the original productions? "Mr. Satan".
 * Is this name used in the English translation? Yes
 * I can't think of any reason why anyone should think that his name is anything other than "Mr. Satan". His name is different than the correct name in some media, just like Princess Peach. And Peach isn't put under Princess Toadstool. Mr. Satan should be treated the same way. DesireCampbell 04:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a difference - Nintendo originally used Princess Toadstool but supplanted it with Peach. "Hercule" is still in use as of now. In fact, I believe earlier video games used "Mr. Satan", but later ones use "Hercule" WhisperToMe 05:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's all well and good. But the purpose of Wikipedia is to provide correct information. "Mr. Satan" is the correct name, there is no reason to think it's not. the character's name is Mr. Satan. The original work is quite clear about that. Both "Hercule" and "Mr. Satan" can be seen in English translations. Why would "Hercule" be considered the proper name, and not "Mr. Satan"? -- DesireCampbell 05:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The videogames mess things up. In the recently released Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 they call Mercenary Tao (aka Tao Pai Pai) General Tao. Does that mean we need to go change the name on his article? No, because the later dub of Dragon Ball changed his name to Mercenary Tao. The people who do the scripts to the videogames don't care about the continuity of names or other attacks. Yamcha's "Spirit Ball" is left untranslated as Sokidan. Does that mean we need to go change the name of his attack in the dub to Sokidan? No, because the people who do the scripts don't care about continuity. Takuthehedgehog 17:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I said before Wisper (since you seem to have missed or ignored my recent post), most of the people who have participated in this discussion want the page changed to Mr.Satan. Read the support/oppose survey. The people for changing the page outnumbered the people against it. Why do you continue to ignore this?

Starone 17:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2. Taku, don't move it until real consensus comes. WhisperToMe 16:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay - 1. DesireCampbell, for some reason, keeps saying dub names are incorrect. Therefore she's invalidated. If her argument was true, Pokemon would have dub names! When Shueisha gave VIZ the license, and VIZ changed the name (And remember Shueisha owns half of VIZ), Shueisha condones the dub names!

Mr.Satan *Hercule* (Dragon Ball) was moved to Hercule (Dragon Ball) without a consensus, why is one needed now and not then? Takuthehedgehog 17:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * List it at Requested moves, Taku. Don't touch the article until REAL consensus is decided. Also see Consensus. In fact, I would like to see a Supermajority before moving anything. WhisperToMe 20:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

" You're contradicting yourself. You're stating that he should be known as Hercule, yet here you go saying that Shueisha condones the dub names. Hercule is a dub name, is it not? VelocityEX 07:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "   * Okay - 1. DesireCampbell, for some reason, keeps saying dub names are incorrect. Therefore she's invalidated. If her argument was true, Pokemon would have dub names! When Shueisha gave VIZ the license, and VIZ changed the name (And remember Shueisha owns half of VIZ), Shueisha condones the dub names!

Requested move
Hercule (Dragon Ball) → Hercule (Mr. Satan) — There's no consensus on where the article should be placed for either location, so this is a compromise using the less common name as a disambiguator. Will (message ♪) 20:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * ''Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.


 * Slight Support- I guess it's a fair compramise.--SUI T 42 20:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - this is like putting Intelligent Design into a science textbook. There's no reason why it should be there, except to make some people happy. It doesn't make the article more correct, in fact it makes it less correct. Why not put Piccolo under Big Green (Piccolo)? -- DesireCampbell 21:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You really should remain civil, DesireCampbell.--SUI T 42 21:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose Hercule (Mr. Satan)? It would be a pointless move that would cause an unnecessary amount of redirects. Pointless -- bullet  proof  3:16 21:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose His English name appears to be Hercule Satan (based on the fact that he is called both "Hercule" and "Mr. Satan" in English sources, and sometimes in the same movie/comic). So it should either remain at "Hercule (Dragon Ball)" (which seems to be the tradition for TV characters) or at "Hercule Satan". TJ Spyke 21:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Hercule (Mr. Satan) is no diffrent from the old title Mr. Satan *Hercule*. The page should be moved to Mr. Satan. Takuthehedgehog 21:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Including both names in the article name goes against WP:NAME. Hercule (Dragon Ball) is fine. Mr. Satan is fine. But a hybrid is not. (I express no opinion on which of the two names it should be.) JRP 23:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose I believe his official English name was censored for obvious reason and he became Hercule as the result. Unless someone wants to prove me wrong, Hercule is the official licensed name. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose per all the above votes. Edgecution 05:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * "(cur) (last) 04:19, 12 November 2006 TJ Spyke (Talk | contribs | block) (I have watched the uncut version, he is sometimes referred to as Hercule there as well.)" - That explains VIZ' "wrestler name" idea for Mr. Satan! WhisperToMe 06:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Movie 11 timeframe
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding as to if Movie 11 happens before or after the Babidi Saga. Movie 11 premiered on July 9, 1994 - which would put it between episodes 232 and 233  (which aired the 7th and the 13th respectively). The Babidi saga is episodes 230 to 231, so while the movies don't really "take place" at any point during the series, the movie was definitely set between episodes 232 and 233. -- DesireCampbell 00:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not go by the English manga name?
Since the manga has the highest source of canon in Dragon Ball fiction, we should go with Mr. Satan. Or if the people are so obsessed with Hercule, why not go with Hercule Satan? This is because Akira Toriyama had invented the character and we're technically supposed to use the name he gave, right? This did apply for Cui-->> Kiwi, Frieza--->>Freeza, and several others that had their name changed because of the manga texts. So, let's use the English manga name then since Wikipedia isn't censored for minors. // Power   level   (Dragon Ball)   // 14:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

With Freeza and Kui it's different. The English names for their names are close enough to their Japanese names that they're acceptable. The name Hercule is a complete name change rather than a slight alteration of Mr.Satan.

Starone 17:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But here's the question: Why? Are you choosing the name out of personal preference? Or out of the belief that the name best serves an English-speaking reader base? I personally think going with the English manga best serves the reader base since the original book versions published in the U.S. use the names. WhisperToMe 00:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's the facts: The character's name is "Mr. Satan". The English translations of the meta-series he appears in has used multiple names. One of the English version names used is "Mr. Satan". "Mr. Satan" is in current use. Most DragonBall characters on Wikipedia are listed under their correct names, even if English translations don't use these names, like Kuririn, Muten Roshi, Kaioshin.

Noone has given any reason as to why the character's name should be listed as "Hercule". Go by the Viz translation? Then we'll have to switch to "Djin Boo". Go by the edited English dub? Why, is it somehow more accurate than the uncut English dub?

Again, I declare that there is no reason why the character's article should be under Hercule. His name is Mr. Satan, the name is used in official English translations, there's no reason to use an incorrect name. -- DesireCampbell 01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC) That's my point entirely: he's been given different names in English translations, so we should use the correct name because these other names are no more reliable than any other one. Why should his name be "Hercule" and not Mr. Satan"? -- DesireCampbell 02:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Uh huh. That's my point. He's given several different names depending on who is doing the translating. He's "Mr. Satan" in the Uncut dub, he's "Hercule" in the censored dub, he's "Hercule Satan" in the Viz manga, he's "Master Pogi" in the Filipino (Philipino? damn spell check) English dub, he's "Mister Savage" on some merchandise. The point I'm trying to make is this: there are many different translations of his name. All these company's translations can be considered "as official" as each other, so there's no reason to say that one is more correct than another. To say that he should be called "Hercule" because Viz said so is preposterous. Why is Viz held above all others? The only reason I could think of to not use "Mr. Satan" is if he'd never been called that in any English version (even then, there's a strong case to be made for using the actual name and not obviously incorrect translations) - but he is called Mr. Satan in at least one English adaptation. Bottom line: there are very goods reasons why the article should be moved to Mr. Satan. There are no good arguments for it to be at Hercule. -- DesireCampbell 02:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC) I'm almost certain that "Hercule" is never spoken in the uncut dub. That point aside, why would that matter? As I've said before (in fact, right above this) these "official" translations are no more "official" than the next. Viz's "Hercule Satan" is no more "official" than "Master Pogi". The correct name is, and has always been, "Mr. Satan". Again, I ask, why should the article be under "Hercule"? -- DesireCampbell 03:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC) I never said "Hercule" wasn't official. If you could kindly read what I've posted, you'll see that I've clearly indicated that "Hercule" is "official". But what is "official"? In the "official" English dub from FUNimation back in 96, Goku's father was a scientist. There are "official" toys that say "Mister Savage". In the current "official" Viz translation, Majin Boo is "Djin Boo". Is there a reason why we should blindly adhere to one company's translation? Wikipedia articles should strive for accuracy first and foremost, and "Hercule" is not correct. Again, I ask why should the article be named "Hercule" and not "Mr. Satan"? -- DesireCampbell 03:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Which official translations? (Besides the uncut anime, though "Hercule" ALSO appears in it too - And then Mr. Satan would ALSO appear in the manga as well) WhisperToMe 02:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it's used a bit differently in the English versions: the English-language manga specified Mr. Satan as his wrestling name; Hercule is primarily used in the English manga. I'm not sure how the uncut anime handled that detail. The Japanese versions do not reveal Mr. Satan's real name for some reason; he is entirely "Mr. Satan". WhisperToMe 02:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Desire, I assume that Hercule is used in the English uncut dub as well, isn't it? In which contexts is it used? WhisperToMe 03:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Repeat after me: VIZ owns 50% of Shueisha. Shueisha and Toei know damn well what FUNimation did and condoned it too. Hercule is official. Again, Hercule is official. Don't you dare tell me it isn't. As I said earlier, Mr. Satan is used differently in the English-language dubs and versions; in the English versions Mr. Satan is a secondary name. And also, about Master Pogi, what language is the Filipino dub in? WhisperToMe 03:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, crap. I must be thinking of the Malaysian dub, not the Fillipino dub being English. My fault. -- DesireCampbell 03:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Why? Because that's the name Toriyama gave him. Why are we using the name a dubbing/translation company gave him over the name the character's creator gave him (IE his PROPER name)? And Wisper, you keep saying that Desire is saying that dub names are in correct. I won't speak for Desire but my opinon is that it's not dub names that are incorrect per se, it's dub names that completly change the origonal name that are incorrect. Names that go against what the creator of the series intended. Starone 05:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Strike-through text

= Um, what? = So, um, what about the current Move Request? (Hercule --> Mr. Satan) -- DesireCampbell 21:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC) Okay, read more of the edit by Mets501 (talk).

Yeah, uh "no consensus? 7 to 4 (64% to 36%), and actual logical arguments feels like enough reason to move the page back to Mr. Satan.

To recap, the arguments were:
 * His name in the original work is "Mr. Satan", we should be using factual information. Period.


 * This is an article about a Japanese metaseries that has be translated into many languages, while the English translations should be talked about more than translations into other languages (being this is the English Wikipedia) the original work is what the article is about, not one company's distribution of it (or part of it). Saying we should use a distribution company's translation over the production company's original text is ludicrous.

If anyone can rebut my arguments, then this article can gladly stay at Hercule. But as it stands now, there is no argument for not moving the article to Mr. Satan.

-- DesireCampbell 22:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Desire, 64% isn't that solid - Maybe a little more towards one end, but it's not even 2/3rds yet. WhisperToMe 22:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And there are no set guidelines for Super Majorities, and "consensus" means (almost) everyone agreeing on something (ie: a compromise). Besides, I'd rather have the article's position depend on logic and factuality, rather than votes - I was just pointing out that there were more 'yay's than 'nay's.
 * Still haven't heard any rebuttals to the arguments to put the article under Mr. Satan. -- DesireCampbell 22:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, here's one - John Panozzi didn't cast his vote under his account - Since anon votes don't county, the tally is 4 to 6. If he wants his vote to count, he has to vote using his account. In reality, here's one - Hercule is the primary name for all known English versions - I would like to study the uncut dub. Let's have a debate specifically on the names used in the uncut dub and which name is primary :) WhisperToMe 23:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * We're going by English Manga names, not Toei names or Funi names. In the English ,mange he's Hercule. Look at Majin Buu the article was moved to Djinn Boo because that's his name in the English Manga. If we went by all original names, Vegeta would be Bejita, Gotenks would be Gotenkusu, see my point?--SUIT What!? 42 23:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

But why does it matter what he's called by one specific distributor? I don't understand. Is there a reason a distributor should be taken as more correct than the production company? Whether we chose (1) Funimation's cut dub, (2) uncut dub, (3) official Japanese subtitles, (4) the Blue Water dub, (5) the Ocean dub, (6) that other UK dub (the "Big Green" one), (7) or the Malaysian dub? What about the Viz manga? Which edition? Why would any one of these different versions be chosen over another? They're all "official".

Again, I ask why we shouldn't use the character's actual names. Is there a reason? -- DesireCampbell 00:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * By two, one of which is half owned by Shueisha anyway; the other is sanctioned by Toei and Shueisha. WhisperToMe 00:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't get why it's like this now. We've been using the English manga names since, I dunno, the beginning.--SUIT What!? 42 00:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"If we went by all original names, Vegeta would be Bejita, Gotenks would be Gotenkusu, see my point?" No, I don't. His name is not Bejita it's clearly "Vegeta", a pun on the English word "Vegetable". His name's not Gotenkusu it's "Gotenks" (a mash of "Goten" and "Trunks"). There are some names that would be contended (like "Bulma" or "Burumma" or "Bloomers") but in such cases where the correct name cannon be determined easily, the most common name will probably be used. Further, in this specific case, the name is not even in contention. His name is (aside from dialogue) always written as "Mr. Satan", in English. I can't even begin to imaging why such a name would be considered un-acceptable.
 * It's not happening - 64% is not consensus. WhisperToMe 00:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"By two, one of which is half owned by Shueisha anyway; the other is sanctioned by Toei and Shueisha." Again, why those two? Yeah, Viz is owned in part by Shueisha - that's a boon for using the manga names, but Viz also censors the manga - a hit against using them. And what does "sanctioned by Toei" mean? Are you trying to say that Funimation's censorship,because they bought the license, is somehow correct?

Again, I ask why we shouldn't use the character's actual names. Is there a reason? -- DesireCampbell 00:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The consensus is to use English manga names. While I dislike the Buu article being Boo, I dislike people picking a choosing names even more. We have reached a general naming system, so we should stick with it. Nemu 00:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I dislike using Djinn Boo over Majin Buu myself (even though it was my idea to change the name in the first place). There is no reason not to use his original manga name. We should be consistent with the naming of Dragon Ball articles. Also, about "If we went by all original names, Vegeta would be Bejita, Gotenks would be Gotenkusu...", those are the romanizations, not manga names we normally name the articles after. // Sasuke  -kun  27  00:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

We should not stick with a flawed system. Picking one distribution company's naming scheme over another arbitrarily is the worst idea I've ever heard. The focus of the article should be on the original interpretation of the character, not one of the various English adaptations. If the character's name was difficult for English speakers, I could see some argument in using one of the dub names - but it isn't.

"There is no reason not to use his original manga name."

Other than it's wrong? Other than the fact that it's obviously wrong.
 * "Hercule lives in "Satan City", his daughter's name is an anagram for "Devil", his various attacks "Satan punch", "Satan kick", when he appears on television at the end of the Boo saga the word "SATAN" flashes below his picture - but his name isn't Mr. Satan."

Again, I ask why the original, correct names shouldn't be used. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I don't understand why anyone would want to perpetuate incorrect information. -- DesireCampbell 00:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? How is his manga name "wrong"? What are we supposed to use? His FUNi name (which ruins the whole pun of Satan City, Videl, etc.)? His romanization, Misutā Satan? I'm saying that we should use Mr. Satan, not the exact opposite. // Sasuke  -kun  27  00:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"What are you talking about? How is his manga name "wrong"?"

Ah, I thought you meant "original manga" as in "Viz'a translation of the original story. - My bad. Which brings me back to my point about distributors: there's too many of them. I get confused with them all. -- DesireCampbell 00:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry. I went back and rephrased it. // Sasuke  -kun  27  00:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * My fault entirely -- DesireCampbell 01:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

So, what are the arguments now?
 * His name is "Mr. Satan", that is not disputed.
 * His name (like many of the characters' names) is changed by distributors for their market's language. But these are merely distributors, not producers of the original work, their changes (be they textual or censorship) should not be taken as factual.
 * But Viz is half owned by Shueisha.
 * And they still somehow managed to fuck it up. *shrug* They also translated "Majin" for some reason (dispite the fact that there are freakin' "M"s everywhere)

Have I missed anything? -- DesireCampbell 01:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

VIZ' name change was on purpose; VIZ has differed from anime conventions in some titles (E.G. VIZ translated YYH names left untranslated by FUNi) WhisperToMe 01:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point: different distributors translate differently. Why should one distributor be chosen above he others? -- DesireCampbell 01:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Having two move votes open at the same time got confusing also. But if you go to WP:MOS-JP, "Names should be romanized according to common usage (see below), which includes unconventional romanizations by licensees (e.g., Devil Hunter Yohko and Tenjho Tenge)." --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 01:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm still a bit confused on this. WP:MOS-JP leads me to believe that the names of the characters should be romanized from their original source, that is, not from any distributor's translation. And that a common, correct, literal romanization should be used unless the name is katakana in which case we should just use the word it's trying to be.
 * Am I getting this correctly? Or am I just seeing what I want to see? -- DesireCampbell 12:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Line about Dabura

 * "Also in the Kamen Rider Stronger series, the name Satan implies evil as well as in most anime series, with "Mr. Satan" as the only exception. Another notable thing is that the name Dabura means Diablo or Devil as well. "

Dabura is an Engrish version of "Dabra", as in "Abraca-". The character's name pun fits in with Bibidi's, Babidi's, and Boo's. I'm not sure where "Dabura means devil" came from. -- DesireCampbell 12:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Um...
I'm a little confused about the name arguments above. People are going on about Hercule being the "official English" name. Someone please explain this to me. See, here's my thing. Toriyama's (or Toei's) original work is hardly less official than the French dub of DBZ (where Hercule originates) or the US one. Second- Mr. Satan IS English. Someone please tell me how it isn't. Listen to his name said in the orignal version. Mr. Satan (albeit with a Japanese accent). We aren't talking about a Japanese name that was translated. The name was in english to start with. Therefore Mr. Satan is both official AND english. I think the problem here is that people keep confusing the term "English Wikipedia" with "United States of America Wikipedia", which is simply not the case. Onikage725 03:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC) WhisperToMe 05:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1. But the French DVD is not an English-language version... so it's NOT English.
 * 2. "Toriyama's (or Toei's) original work is hardly less official" - But because other English-language versions exist, it's not relevant to us Anglophones.
 * 3. "We aren't talking about a Japanese name that was translated. The name was in english to start with." - The name may actually be from English, but that doesn't make it the "English name" - See, 666 Satan is now O-Parts Hunter, for instance, because the title was seen as "too offensive" for an Anglophone market.

The arguments to keep the article under "Hercule" are thus:
 * it's the most common name
 * this is the English Wikipedia
 * Viz uses "Hercule"

The problem with these arguments are thus:
 * it's not the most common name. The only proof that it could be the most common name is a Google Test - which "Hercule" fails. Google +Hercule dbz dragon ball. That will find pages that are (probably) about DragonBall, and say "Hercule" (120,000). Now, search for +Hercule dbz dragon ball -Satan (90,000). That will find pages that are (probably) about DragonBall, and say "Hercule" but not "Satan". Now Google +Satan dbz dragon ball (300,000) and +Satan dbz dragon ball -Hercule (270,000). Notice how even the search for Satan without Hercule still gets more hits than Hercule with Satan? There's no evidence to back up the claim that "Hercule" is more widely known than "Mr. Satan".
 * The argument that the name should be an English word is stupid. It's not a Wikipedia Guideline. It's not in line with in place standards (on other DB pages and other Wikipedia pages), and will not improve the quality of Wikipedia.
 * There are guidelines in place that deal specifically with Japanese related articles. In a nutshell, we should be using revised Hepburn romanizations (ie: Gokû) or the English words they are derived from (ie Trunks). With only a few exceptions.


 * The argument that we should use Viz's translations for the character names is absurd as well. Viz is one of the many distribution company's for one of the parts of the Dragon Ball metaseries. This is one of many articles about a fictional metaseries from Japan. This is not one of many articles about one distribution company's translation of the metaseries. There are at least half a dozen different "official" translations of the metaseries. Choosing one over another is absurd.
 * Beyond that, let's assume that we have to or even should pick one distribution company's translation to use for all the pages (to be clear, we don't, we shouldn't, and we won't). Why would we choose Viz? Besides this incorrect name, there's also the deliberate visual censorship (violence and nudity) and over reaching translations (see Djinn Boo).

In short, there's absolutely no reason this article should be at Hercule. It's just that, to move it I'd have to go through the same process I already have. And I just don't feel up to it today. I will request a move soon, though. And will include this argument along with it (though in more detail). Though, I'm playing with the idea of an actual 'Wiki Project' for Dragon Ball, and deal with that first (probably). -- DesireCampbell 04:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well... 1. Don't try to move it again until a few months pass. The issue has been decided now. 2. "Hercule" is used in the UK, Canada, and a few other countries. VIZ Media's adaptation can be bought on Amazon in the US, Canada, and UK. WhisperToMe 05:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

And what does that have to do with the actual points I brought up? I can by R2 DVDs as well as Funi's. My points still stand, and stand correct. -- DesireCampbell 05:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The Japanese R2 DVDs are irrelevant. Anything not English is not relevant. What do the British R2 DVDs use? WhisperToMe 07:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, Gollancz Manga sells the Dragon Ball manga in the UK. The Gollancz editions are exact copies of the VIZ editions. WhisperToMe 07:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

"Anything not English is not relevant"

That is the most farcical thing I have ever heard. This is not, I repeat not an article about Viz's translation of Dragon Ball. This is not an article about Funimation's translation of Dragon Ball. This is an article about Dragon Ball. Period. You are clearly misinformed about what Wikipedia is. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. en.Wikipedia is and English Language version of it. en.Wikipedia does not ignore factual information. It does not promote incorrect data. It does not censor itself.

This article, as with every article on Wikipedia, will strive to provide the most accurate information on the subject as possible. Changing an article to become more factual or to better inform the reader is the entire point behind the Wiki system. Anyone who edits Wikipedia to deliberatly promote incorrect information is a vandal.

I repeat: if you change anything from correct information to incorrect information, you are a vandal and you will be treated as such.

-- DesireCampbell 14:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's really funny, but it's really true, Desire. You are on the English Wikipedia. Gauging popularity of Japanese versions isn't relevant, because they are not in English and not relevant. WhisperToMe 16:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * English is a language, not a country. Should all information that comes from countries not of native English-speaking origin be stricken as irrelevant? And, as I've said, Mr. Satan is not a Japanese name. And it is used in the uncensored anime release. We dont use all Viz names. If you think so, go lobby for Vegerot on the Vegetto page. We'll see you back here after your proposal is shot down. Onikage725 17:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "English is a language, not a country. Should all information that comes from countries not of native English-speaking origin be stricken as irrelevant?" My point is, when choosing names, other language editions are irrelevant if an English version is there. When DesireCampbell made a point of "being able to order Japanese version off of Amazon", I say that point isn't relevant, because the version is in Japanese and therefore does not "apply" to EN in terms of the popularity of a name worldwide. WhisperToMe 19:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you out of your mind? What could possibly cause you to think that something non-English should be excluded from Wikipedia? It's sure not any of the Wikipedia Guidelines. It's sure not any of the anime or manga articles. en.Wikipedia is not blind to non-English information. Do you have any reason to believe that en.Wikipedia should display incorrect information? I repeat. Clear defiance to Wikipedia Guidelines and baseline logic will be viewed as vandalism. -- DesireCampbell 16:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Those who are for Hercule haven't answered my question about the name being English. Isn't "Hercule" the French interpretation of a Greek word? I believe Satan I believe draws its origins from Hebrew, but it is a far more commonly used word in English than "Hercule." And "Mr." is English. His Japanese name isn't Satan-san. It is Mr. Satan. His name, even in Japan, was English. Just like his daughters name is an anagram of the word devil. Not "mamano" or "akuma" (I believe those words are the equivolent japanese terms). The english word "devil." So not only is Mr. Satan more "english" but it is used on the uncut releases of the english anime (Hercule is the TV-edited name, essentially) and it keeps with the name pun. Hercule does not hold to the pun the original creator intended. I'm pretty sure wikipedia is not censored, so how does FUNi making the decision to censor a name to meet Cartoon Networks broadcast standards give us the right to obscure factual information or ignore the creator's intentions in the work he wrote? We might as well go on to mention that at one point in the series noone died, since death was once deemed too harsh and was censored out in favor of "being sent to the next dimension." And ppl citing WP:MOS-JP are flat out wrong. Mr. Satan - Hercule is not romanisation. Its a name change from a licensee. This sin't a case of acceptable translation, as Mr. Satan does not need to be translated. It is already English (and used in the uncut version as such). Onikage725 16:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

We're on English Wikipedia but it's silly to think that it's strictly English names that are used here. I can point to quite a few articles here that don't use the English naming so that point is ultimately moot. Besides, as Desire said before, those guidelines are just that, GUIDELINES, not absolute laws. They are a set of rules that generally should be followed but can be bent when the situation calls for it, which in this case it does.

Starone 17:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The guidelines are there for a reason: to guide the formation and maintenance of articles. They are generally the best way to go. Guidelines and policies on Wikipedia are pretty good, especially that "ignore all rules" policy. If there's a guideline that is preventing an article from improveing, ignore the rule. It's as simple as that. But even here, that's not necessary. There are clear guidelines in place for Japanese related articles, and manga articles specifically. These guidelines state that the original names should be used. Period. The point I'm trying to make, again, is that there's absolutely no argument to have this article at Hercule. None. Not one reason. Wiki guidelines, standards set by other articles, and common sense state that the article should be Mister Satan. -- DesireCampbell 17:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Naw, naw, I didn't say it would be "excluded" - I said that, when counting popularity and figuring out which should be the name used, the Japanese version's worldwide availability isn't relevant, because the version is in Japanese. We should gauge worldwide naming usage by the applicable language. As this is English Wikipedia, only usage in the USA, Canada, UK, Australia, and NZ (And English-language usage in Nigeria, India, etc.) counts. Full stop. Of course, this point doesn't apply to series not available in English :)

By the way, Desire, you probably should take a break from this. WhisperToMe 19:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Noone's talking about using the most popular name except you. And even then there's no way to justify your statement that Hercule is more popular than Mr. Satan. Again, you seem to be ignoring Wikipedian Guidelines about factuality, about Japanese related articles, and about Anime/Manga articles. en.Wikipedia has nothing to do with any specific country. Nothing. This is a globally available encyclopedia that just happens to be in English. We don't promote incorrect information. Full stop. -- DesireCampbell 19:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Then why did the requested move fail? (rhetorical question) I believe I am more representative of "we" on Wikipedia, since I am a sysop. Anyway, Desire, the issue has been decided. You may try again in a few months :) WhisperToMe 19:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

You might believe you are more representative - but you're probably wrong. I hope you're wrong. I hope that most people on Wikipedia strive for accurate information. Or at least strive to follow the guidelines. Again, you still have given no valid reason why the article should be placed at Hercule. Do you have any reasons? (not a rhetorical question) -- DesireCampbell 19:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Why does anyone have to wait a few months? Who decided? That's one of my problems with the way consensus is reached on wiki. We're worldwide but 5-10 people decide the fate of an article. Yeah, it has worked in my favor before, but I still think the system is flawed. In this example, it looks like the last vote went up less then two weeks ago. I had no idea. Everyone I know IRL who watches DBZ uses Mr. Satan (except 1). We were also all together at a birthday party last weekend. We all could have logged into our accounts and voted, and the vote would have been +6 for Mr. Satan and +1 for Hercule. That is not to count the various message boards I know where people would scoff at the Hercule useage. One post and there could have been more (especially considering that anyone, including non-registered readers can have a say on Wikipedia). But alas, we've all been busy. None of my regular contacts on Wiki told me about it (and some of them don't seem to have represented here, so I assume they didn't know either). I don't have "Hercule" in my watchlist. I dont even particularly like the character. But still, missing something on a site as massive on Wikipedia means that "consensus has been reached" and the issue is decided? My opinion wieghs as much as the others, and almost everyone I know thinks along the same lines. A handful of "oppose" votes does not mean the whole world has spoken and those users can claim praxis over the article. Dont take me wrong, I wont go against consensus and start an edit war. Im just saying that suggesting one has to "wait a few months" to check that consensus is ridiculous. Onikage725 01:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with everything Onikage just said. I'd like to make a few more points: --DesireCampbell 04:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The vote didn't reach "consensus", but was 7 to 4 in favor of Mr. Satan.
 * I don't particularly like the name Mr. Satan. Frankly, I think Hercule is a nicer name. It rolls off the tongue nicely, just like "Krillin" does. But that's simply my opinion and has absolutely no weight towards the fact that the character's name is "Mister Satan".
 * There is no need to wait a few months before another Move Request. In fact, there's no need of a request at all. Wikipedia guidelines are very clear in regards to anime/manga character names. I've explained this repeatedly. The article's name, if we are to follow the guidelines, must be Mister Satan. If I were to move the page right now, I would be in the right. And anyone who changed it back without a consensus would be in the wrong. Anyone reverting the page back to Hercule would be a vandal. - But another Wiki policy is to not be a dick. I'm completely right about all I've said, but moving the page now would provoke an edit war with Whisper. And while he would be a bigger dick for it, I would have "started" it. So I won't move the page right now. But if Whisper can't back retaliate against my previous points in a few days I will move the page to Mister Satan, and will deal with whatever consequences arise.

And Whisper, you didn't respond to my point about some articles not using the English naming. I don't think this is a black and white issue where you can just say "We only use the English names" because like Desire said again, the purpose of this site is to provide FACTUAL information and the fact is that many characters in anime dubs have their names changed from what the creator of the character gave them, therefore the dub name is automatically less correct than the origonal name because the dub name was created by a mear localization company instead of the character's creator, thus the origional name should take more priority.

This English only anime naming policy really needs to be revamped. What it should say is "English names should be primarily used EXCEPT when they contradict the origional Japanese manga/anime" since we're talking about JAPANESE franchises here. These franchises are Japanese in origin so the Japanese names should take priority over the name changes used in dubs.

Starone 17:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The thing is, the guidelines for Japanese related articles, and anime/manga article specificly say that we shouldn't use dub names. The guidelines, basically, say we should use Hepburn romanization, or the English word the name is derived from. Whoever first brought up the idea that Wiki Policy is to use only English names was wrong. -- DesireCampbell 23:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. If we only use English names, explain (as a general anime example) the Usagi Tsukino article? In fact, Sailor Moon info is on the Japanese manga and anime, with a seperate article on the notability of the English adaptation. Your average dub these days is relatively close to the source material, so questions of naming and what-not are fairly cosmetic. Which versions trappings should we wear? But cases like Sailor Moon...the dub shanked a lot. Which is why it isn't considered a reliable source. Well, Dragon Ball in English is just as unreliable. There are multiple dubbing efforts throughout its history, each one is at best controversial. FUNi has gotten better with time, but watch the Saban days or any flashback in Z pertaining to DB and try to make sense of it. Then for shits and grins, try to piece together a sensible attack list. I dont remember which guideline it is, but awhile back I read one that addressed naming for anime articles and it said to go with established English names unless the English adaptation is known to be erroneous. Well, as far as DBZ is concerned, the anime dub has been consistently inconsistent. This isn't a question of preference. This isnt a question of personal familiarity or nostalgia. It is a question of factuality, pure and simple. Onikage725 1. I have other things on Wikipedia to concentrate on 2. I have real-life events that I have to pay attention to as well WhisperToMe 04:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC) 'VIZ owns 50% of Shueisha. Shueisha and Toei know damn well what FUNimation did and condoned it too. Hercule is official. Again, Hercule is official. Don't you dare tell me it isn't. As I said earlier, Mr. Satan is used differently in the English-language dubs and versions; in the English versions Mr. Satan is a secondary name. And also, about Master Pogi, what language is the Filipino dub in?' Other way around. And just because Shueisha owns Viz, doesn't mean they are 'officializing' whatever Viz edits. Shueisha is nothing but the publisher of the manga. The creator is Akira Toriyama. The bullshit about 'this is English. We want English stuff only' is highly irrelevant. It doesn't apply to ANY Dragon Ball articles, nor does it apply to any anime articles that have 'official' names in North America. The names are given by the author, and those names are as official as possible. More people may know about Hercule, but his true name is Mr. Satan. Viz and Funimation censored it for a reason (While FUNImation was glad enough to use it in ALL uncut DVDs, movies and series included). And 'Hercule Satan' was an attempt by Viz to try to go around this huge issue.
 * With a smile, I say "The old English-language Sailor Moon stuff is out of print" WhisperToMe 20:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And with a smile, I say "You haven't answered any of our questions". -- DesireCampbell 23:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll answer them later. Desire, the issue has been decided. I would like to take a break from this, and you should too. You don't want to fixate yourself too much on one issue, you know. I am not willing to talk about this as of writing because:
 * Well - I'll address one. I don't understand why Starone is saying that it's not factual to use names in English language adaptations. I truly don't. WhisperToMe 05:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, this seems a bit like everyone rebelling and the big bad man going 'no' because he simply can.

So there you have it. VelocityEX 07:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Velocity, if a licensed English-language edition from a company that is half-owned by the original Japanese publishing company isn't official, I don't know what is. Remember, American companies buy EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS to publish titles from original Japanese publishers. IMO, it's a waste of time to debate when the Move debate has been decided, and the arguments are not very good. WhisperToMe 07:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If the arguments are "not very good", then why have you failed to address them? What exactly is so bad about the pro Satan arguments?


 * Mister Satan: The name released in the book's original format, by it's original company, in it's original language. This name logically takes presidence over any and all adaptations.
 * The name Mister Satan is used in at least one official English language adaptation.
 * Mister Satan is an English name.
 * The name Mister Satan is perhaps more widely known than Hercule.
 * Google +Hercule dbz dragon ball. That will find pages that are (probably) about DragonBall, and say "Hercule" (120,000). Now, search for +Hercule dbz dragon ball -Satan (90,000). That will find pages that are (probably) about DragonBall, and say "Hercule" but not "Satan". Now Google +Satan dbz dragon ball (300,000) and +Satan dbz dragon ball -Hercule (270,000). Notice how even the search for Satan without Hercule still gets more hits than Hercule with Satan? There's no evidence to back up the claim that "Hercule" is more widely known than "Mr. Satan".
 * in the last Move Requests, there were more votes registered to move the page to Mister Satan - but no consensus was reached.
 * The name Hercule was created for censorship purposes. Wikipedia_is_not_censored.
 * Most other manga/anime articles use the original source as its main, er, source. At best, there's equal weight given to the English dub names (if any), and at worst English adaptations aren't mentioned at all.
 * Mister Satan is used in all the other Dragon Ball articles. Even in this article, he is refered to as Mister Satan.
 * The actual Wikipedia Guidelines state that we should be using the original name. See MOS Japan related articles. Though, these are just guidelines, and can be ignored if doing so would make the article better I don't believe doing so would in this case.
 * These arguments are obviously terrible compared to your arguments:
 * These arguments are obviously terrible compared to your arguments:


 * Hercule is more widely known No evidence of such.
 * Viz owns half of Shueisha No, Shueisha owns half of Viz.
 * What were your arguments again? "Japan is irrelevant"? Was that it?
 * -- DesireCampbell 09:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Whisper, I'll say it again. My stance isn't "all English names are wrong" (I get the impression that that's what you think). My stance is English names that are a complete change from the origional Japanese name are wrong. English names that are the same as the Japanese names or an accurate translation of the Japanese name are ok. The Name Hercule is neither, thus it is faulty to use it over the origional name Mr.Satan.

And if the name the author of the story and creator of the character gave him isn't official enough to be used over the name a simple licensing company gave him, I don't know what is.

Starone 09:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The move debate has not been "decided," as wikipedians are still voting it. Whisper, you seem dangerously close to claiming ownership of the article, as noone but you is even voicing support for Hercule right now, yet you insist that "the majority" feel as you do. The numerous votes up top for various amalgam names above were inconclusive and frankly didn't match any naming criteria anyway. The vote for Mr. Satan was in favor of Mr. Satan. Whisper actually has no leg to stand on as far as "consesnus" and "decided issues" go. Now, here's a fact. Dragon Ball articles need to be consistent. They've been going on the whims of the article's creator for awhile, but many of us hve voted and strived to keep things consistent. Fact 2- Viz names are used when the Viz name is a translation, not an alteration. Note Kiwi, but not Vegerot. Fact 3- Majority of the names are the accurate romaisations of the names. Steve Simmons uses these in his english subbing on the official US DVDs, so it isn't like we pull "favorites" out of thin air. Also, names are converted asl closely to English as possible. Example Trunks over Turunkusu or Vegeta over Bejita. Fact 4- If a FUNimation name has been used in an article, it probably means the name was old and hasn't been caught yet, or that it is "Krillin" in one of Zarbon's edits of a Freeza-related character. Fact 5- Wikipedia is not censored. Hercule is a censored name. Fact 6- Mr. Satan is not a japanese name and in no way violates any guideline about using japanese words over english ones. Fact 6- Mr. Satan is used in the official subs, the uncut dub, and given mention in the manga. It is not "unnofficial" even in America. It is also more common, as Desire's google-test results show. The majority of sites also use the name, as the character was well known before he was dubbed and renamed. Fact 7- Apparently about 10 days ago it was decided, 8/4 for Mr. Satan. "There was no consensus" means that the minority group wins by default? The majority of those who participated voted yes for the move. I would have voted yes if I had been alerted or if the vote had been kept open for a little bit. It looks like everyone involved at that time voted between the 15th and `17th and the issues was "decided." Yet the there was also a vote in the archives to move to Hercule in the first place and it didn't overwhelm the Mr. Satan votes, yet here we are with a Hercule page. Fact 8- Wikipedia authorizes any of us to act upon incorrect information, so I'm exorcising that right. If nothing else, it keeps the article with the conventions used for naming of the majority of other articles (original name, mention of alternate names in the opening paragraph). It also keeps the article consistent, as the article itself uses Mr. Satan, and other articles do as well (look at Majin Buu, Videl, and Pan). Onikage725 10:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)