Talk:Herm

Untitled
1 and a half miles long but how wide is it? do you know?


 * Less than 1.5 miles? user:sjc


 * Now answered in the article. As the old joke runs:
 * And the other interesting thing about this yacht is that it sails sideways!
 * -- Alan Peakall 13:49 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

Picture needed
This article needs a picture --AW 19:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are now three. -- Editor at Large  •  talk  22:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong map
The map in this article's infobox is labeled to show the location of Guernsey, but the article is about Herm. The map needs to be corrected to show where Herm is; if a reader wanted to know where Guernsey is he or she would more likely look in the Guernsey article than in the Herm article.

I realize that a map later in the article shows where Herm is in relation to Guernsey, but many readers look to the infobox first and may never read the whole article. If there is a map in the infobox, it should be relevant to the specific subject of the article, and this one is not. Maybe the map later in the article should just be moved into the infobox. Many infoboxes include two or maybe even more maps, especially when the subject (like Herm) is small and needs maps with more than one level of detail to show exactly where in the world it is.--Jim10701 (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This one perhaps? File:Channel Islands - Herm.PNG Man vyi (talk) 08:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Transport - what about trikes?
As in the Sark article, no mention is made re the legality or otherwise of tricycles - a significant omission?--46.65.8.42 (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * No - not significant. Tricycles are hardly a popular means of transport, lovely though they doubtless are for those who use them. The omission is no more or less significant than the similar omission of unicycles. However, I think we may assume that if bicycles are banned on Herm, then so are unicycles, tandems, tricycles, and other similar vehicles.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  12:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure one should tar all cyclistic vehicles with the same brush. Consider the vulnerable virgin sward that is Herm, then a bicycle, a unicycle and a tricycle. Then picture a fool, an idiot and a naturalist. Which belongs with which?--46.65.8.106 (talk) 14:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Your question is not valid for this project. Herm does not allow cyclists, so we report the fact. The philosophy of cycling, and the psychology of cyclists (that's unicyclists, bicyclists, and tricyclists) is for another forum.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  10:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the readers are more interested in the precise legal position regarding these vehicles than your POV.--109.156.16.44 (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Update
I know that this article has few, if any, regular editors, but I thought I would let people know that I am trying to get the article to GA, and am sourcing, then expanding, here, in my sandbox. Please feel free to edit it and help, I will start moving it into the article section by section when I feel it is ready. Thanks, Mat  ty. 007 17:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments
Note: I, Mat  ty. 007, copied the below from my sandbox draft after I asked to have a look at it.
 * I noticed there are several very short, some one-sentenced paragraphs. You should try to solidify them into paragraphs and make them flow with prose. See MOS:PARAGRAPHS for more info. Similarly, while it may seem to help with navigation, very short sections are not preferred (MOS:BODY). Basically it's all about prose (at least in my mind). I've always found WP:BETTER to be a great resource for how to improve articles. I should also note a lot of this stuff may go beyond GA standards, and I'm admittedly picky when I do my reviews, maybe too much. Hope this helps! &mdash; MusikAnimal talk 19:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I have had a fix of some of (what I think) what were the worst culprits. Do you think that the article would pass a GA review? Is there anything missing? Thanks again for having a look, Mat  ty  .  007  20:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Language
What was the former primary dialect (now replaced by English)? Folklore1 (talk) 16:28, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Norman French I think, added. Mat  ty  .  007  17:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

A couple of questions
Is there an explanation to the obelisk - who, when and why? It seems to be called Pierre aux Rats and "built as a navigational aide for fisherman after quarrymen removed a large tomb previous sused by the fishermen" (1, I can but hope there is a better source). Also, if the island has been pictured in literature (Compton Mackenzie in mentioned in the first referenced source), I would expect to find it in here (at least if I was a Hermian - Hermite? - another thing I don't know after reading the article). Hope this helps a bit. --Oop (talk) 10:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I also found that, but it seems to be reader contributed, so is not a reliable source, and after further searching for the info found nothing. Added Mackenzie. Can't find much about hermites or hermians. Best, Mat  ty  .  007  11:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing a few typos . Best, Mat  ty  .  007  11:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

William the Conqueror in 933?
The Middle Ages section states that the island was annexed by William the Conqueror in 933. Is this a joke? or was there another William the Conqueror, or did he live another 133 years to go on and conquer England? I can't correct the article because I have no idea when he did actually annexe Herm. Jiver2 (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * fixed. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  19:27, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Just to note...
I originally worked on the article here (soon to be deleted I'm afraid), and was told to link to it so that it was obvious where I copied it from. Thanks, Mat  ty. 007 19:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Loss of identity fears - clarification required
Herm is currently managed by Herm Island Ltd, formed by Starboard Settlement, who acquired Herm in 2008, following fears that the island's identity was at threat.

I propose that this phrase following fears that the island's identity was at threat. be removed from the preamble section of this article as it is misleading and possibly damaging.

The wording suggests that the disposal/acquisition itself was consequent on these fears, and there is therefore an implied reflection on the way the island was managed prior to that.

It is unnecessary to state it at this level in the article as it is repeated in the body with sources, and as a relatively trivial fact of interest only at the time, (hardly worth mentioning even in the body) it certainly does not merit a double appearance in this article. I don't have a suggestion for alternative wording, as I don't believe it is worth rewriting/expanding to clarify, or that it qualifies to be one of the headline statements in the introduction to this article about Herm Island. Apparentnorth (talk) 14:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I would disagree that it isn't notable, the community being afraid that major traditions (such as the no-car rule) could be overturned by being bought by a company. I have reworded it a bit, any better now? Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  15:05, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Too late, it's already happened. Who speaks Channel Island patois there anymore? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.84.218.180 (talk) 14:19, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Compton Mackenzie
Has been largely written put of the history of this island, by his successors the Woods, despite being by far the most interesting tenant.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150816183442/http://www.islandlife.org/Herm.htm to http://www.islandlife.org/herm.htm
 * Added tag to https://blog.herm.com/post/Policing-on-Herm.aspx
 * Added tag to https://blog.herm.com/post/Policing-on-Herm.aspx
 * Added tag to https://blog.herm.com/post/Herm-has-more-First-Responders.aspx
 * Replaced archive link https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:A35xdE7FhlEJ:blog.herm.com/post/Antony-Gormley-statue-on-Herm.aspx+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a with https://web.archive.org/web/20150211054155/http://blog.herm.com/post/Antony-Gormley-statue-on-Herm.aspx on https://blog.herm.com/post/Antony-Gormley-statue-on-Herm.aspx
 * Added tag to https://blog.herm.com/post/Antony-Gormley-leaves-Herm.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150816183442/http://www.islandlife.org/Herm.htm to http://www.islandlife.org/herm.htm

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Clearly not the primary meaning
Herm (sculpture) consistently gets higher views. The plain term should go to the disam page. Johnbod (talk) 21:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

"Smallest prison in the world"? I doubt it
I have removed the following text from the Crime and law enforcement section:
 * There is a prison on the island, located between the White House Hotel and the sea-front. The prison has one window in its granite wall and another in the door, can only house one person, and is notable for being the smallest jail in the world.


 * The ref given is from a self-confessed spoof site, which says in the last few paragraphs of the page:
 * For the avoidance of doubt
 * All of the characters, organisations, publications and narrative of the Sarnian series, any related publications, products and web sites are fictitious. Characters, events, organisations and publications are not intended to refer to actual entities or events and any similarity is unintentional and entirely coincidental.
 * What's this all about?
 * This web site, and its contents, are here to support The Sarnian, a series of books set on and around the Channel Islands, and Guernsey in particular. It started as a means of keeping track of each character so that their features, loves, desires, abilities, looks and so on didn't change from book to book and has grown to become a complete encyclopedia of the series.

Enginear (talk) 23:52, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * In full, the ref source says "A granite, windowless building in the grounds of the White House Hotel holds some claim to fame for the island, being the smallest prison in the world." [my italics]. And a 1948 photo, the year before the former country house reopened as a hotel, and  a 2022 video  (2:55 - 3:31), show that it is indeed in the hotel grounds.  Why would a prison be built on private land belonging to a house or inn, rather than on public land?
 * But the top 10 results of a Google search for "smallest prison in the world" all refer to a prison on the neighbouring island of Sark, which contains two 1-person cells, divided by a corridor, in a building of internal dimensions approx 18 ft x 6 ft (5.4 m x 1.8 m) which is considerably bigger than the building on Herm . Another clue to the substitution in the spoof article is that Sark's prison does appear to be windowless, as in the spoof page's description of a Herm prison, while the actual building on Herm has a small window in the door and another in the back wall, as our editor has noticed.
 * Yet Herm's own website, which appears to be aimed solely at encouraging tourism, only states baldly that "During this quarrying era [1810s to 1880s] the first large community since prehistoric times was formed and the harbour, roads and pathways were constructed. 400 quarrymen were estimated to be working on the island. To cater for their needs, accommodation, a forge, blacksmiths, brewery, bakery and a prison were built." . There is no mention of a tiny (maybe 7 ft or 2.1 m internally) circular hut, much smaller than the prison on Sark.  I suggest the reason is simple -- the prison was not that building, but a larger one elsewhere, on public land and probably with at least 2 cells -- with 400 workmen, often plus their families, the population would have been somewhat larger than Sark's, which was generally 500 - 650. There appears to have been one, or even two, pubs. Every so often, there would have been drunken brawls, where both sides had to be arrested and held separately because they refused to stop fighting.  Two cells would seem to have been essential.
 * Frustratingly, I have not managed to find any information about the hotel's history other than brief mention on its own webpage and Facebook page, but they state, between them, that the original building, now hardly visible due to many extensions, was built as an inn in the 1860s, before becoming a private house by around 1923 if not earlier, and reverting to a hotel in 1949. Nor is there any indication as to when the island was electrified, although due to the new tenant's career in motor manufacturing, I suspect the house at least would have been electrified in 1923 if it wasn't already.
 * The importance of what the White House was used for, and when it was electrified, is because buildings of similar shape to the "prison" were associated with the non-electrified country houses of the rich in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The clue is in the shape, not just circular, but domed -- as near to spherical as could easily be built, because a sphere has minimum possible ratio of surface area to volume, and good insulation was not yet available for strong constructional materials -- they were indeed "coolers" but not in the slang sense.  In the coldest part of winter, ice would be cut from ponds and lakes, brought in and packed tight into the Ice house (building) (which would extend for several feet, or even several storeys, below the door level)  and if well packed, would last all through the summer, and would be chipped or sawn out as required by the chef, to allow super-luxurious food, such as ice cream, to be prepared and brought to the table on hot days. Due to the maritime climate in Herm, there would be an additional cost that ice would need to be imported from Northern France, a few miles inland, while in Central England, local ice could be used.  The "prison" does seem rather small for this (unless it was just the top of a spiral stair) but possibly they were regularly supplied by the ships which bought ice year-round from Northern Scandinavia, to supply fishmongers, etc.
 * Of course, if there is no sign of a past stair, or at least a pit, then my theory must be wrong, (and we can't add it anyway, in the absence of hard evidence, since it's WP:OR, but unless someone finds clear indication from a reputable non-spoof site, I don't think we should call it a prison either, since it is impracticably small, and not attested on local tourism sites as would be expected.
 * If it were in West Cornwall, we might expect it was built by a superstitious vicar who believed the devil could not hide in a building without corners, or perhaps someone built it as a folly -- a "hermitage" in honour of the possible derivation of Herm from Hermit, but if even the island's own PR people don't claim it as a prison, I don't think we should. (Although a local guide, Lesley Bailey appears to have convinced a German group, you will find, if you follow the link, that she is no longer accredited as a guide. It reminds me of a cynical Cambridge student who took a vacation job as a guide on a local tour bus in the early 1970s.  They would drive along, then stop, he would explain the relevant history, they would all get out and take photos, then get back on the bus and continue.  The road to the nearby village of Grantchester is a dead end, so having checked that the church clock was keeping time correctly, and whatever else you look at in Grantchester, they drove to a point where the bus could turn round. One time, someone asked "What are we looking for here?"  On the spur of the moment, he pointed to a tree and said "That's a very famous tree!"  They all trooped out and photographed it, got back on board satisfied, the bus turned round and they continued.  He was of course a friend of a friend, so it must be true ;-) but even so, I'm not convinced by the statement that from then on, he said that on every trip, and no one ever asked why the tree was famous.  You see, my friend was a touch cynical himself.)