Talk:Herm/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs) 16:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I will review this article. Please be patient with me; it may be a few days to get to this. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks . Mat  ty  .  007  17:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry it took me so long to get to this. It's my practice to look at an article generally first, and then analyze it more specifically. To that end, my reviews tend to be thorough; I start by filling out a template, and then do a prose and source review. I look forward to learning something new. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:25, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria This article is interesting, but has some to go before it can be passed to a GA. Not a lot of work is required, though, so getting it qualified as a GA shouldn't be difficult.
 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:
 * One of the biggest weaknesses of this article is that the prose isn't specific enough. See below for an explanation of this statement, in the prose review.
 * B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
 * Lead is too short, and doesn't give an overview of the subject. I also have some issues with the layout, which I'll go into more detail about in the prose review.
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. Has an appropriate reference section:
 * B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:
 * The sources look very strong here.
 * C. No original research:
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * I'm undecided about this article's scope; I'll make a more informed decision during the prose and source review.
 * B. Focused:
 * At first glance, this article seems a little short for an article about a place, but that might be because Herm is so small. I also still need to look at how the sources are integrated; see below.
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * This article has had a lot of contributors, especially in the last year, but no edit wars. The GA nominator has taken over maintenance, which seems to be respected by these contributors.
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
 * Very nice images.
 * B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Needs work, but not much to bring it up to GA standards.
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Needs work, but not much to bring it up to GA standards.
 * Needs work, but not much to bring it up to GA standards.

I'll be able to get back to the review, and start on the more thorough prose and source reviews starting tomorrow. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, thank you. I will wait for specifics first. Thanks again, Mat  ty  .  007  17:07, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Prose review
Ok, I'll start on my prose review now. As I stated above, I tend to be thorough, so it may take several days to complete.

Lead: As I state above, the lead is too short and it doesn't give an overview of the subject. Please expand.

History Ancient history
 * I know that this article is structured like other similar articles, but dividing it up this way means that the paragraphs are short. It's generally encouraged to avoid one-paragraph sections.  I suggest that you combine sections; for example, you could combine the first two sections and name it "Discovery (or Ancient history) to Middle Ages".  Did nothing happen in Herm between the Middle Ages and the 19th century?  Then you could combine the next two sections and name it "19th century to WWII".  The final section, about more recent history, would be short, but I think it would be all right anyway.  Any variations of these suggestions is all right too.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007  18:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Herm was first found in the Mesolithic, when hunters were in search of food. I'm not sure I like how this is worded. Do you mean that Herm was discovered by hunters searching for food during the Mesolithic period?  The source states that these hunters were the first to "step foot on Herm", and the way you've worded it makes it sound like the Mesolithic was a place, not an era.  How about this: "Herm was discovered during the Mesolithic period (between 10,000 and 8,000 B.C) by hunters looking for food."
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * In the Neolithic and Bronze ages, settlers arrived; the remains of chamber tombs have been found on the island, and may be seen today. This could be a little tighter.  Also, I think you could incorporate the source a little better; why not state, like the source does, where the chamber tombs were found?  How about: "The island was settled during the Neolithic and Bronze ages; to this day, evidence of their tombs can be seen [describe the parts of the island as cited by ref 1]."
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Single-sentence paragraphs are also not encouraged in WP, so I think that you could combine the two paragraphs, especially since the second paragraph is about the tombs mentioned in the previous one. If you combine sections, that would work well.
 * Attempted. Mat  ty  .  007
 * After a three-year project by the University of Durham, supported by specialists from the University of Cambridge and the University of Oxford, and the Guernsey museum; they stated that the "density of tombs suggests that the northern end of Herm may have been a place set apart for funerary activity". Incorrect use of the semicolon, which is used in place of a period to separate two sentences when the conjunction is left out.  I also think you should incorporate the source a little better; for example, you could include more information from the first paragraph of ref 2 and describe their study a little more.  (I think that you could include the geological information from the study in the article, too.  I'll talk more about that later, in my source review.)
 * Attempted fix of all, working on lead. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  19:26, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I need to stop here. More later. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Really sorry, I've had a busy day today, so will probably start fixing tomorrow. Best, Mat  ty  .  007  19:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, lead expanded, I have attempted to address all the issues. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  19:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Continuing to re-named 1st section:
 * However, the monks suffered from the inclement Atlantic; in 709, a storm washed away the strip of land which connected the island with Jethou. I dunno, monks don't suffer from bad weather; they suffer from bad health or diseases or the like.  This sentence is also unclear.  How did the storm affect the monks?  When it washed away the strip of land, did it destroy buildings?
 * I'm not too sure how it affected the monks, the source doesn't say, so I removed the monks part. There are no other sources, mostly mirrors or sites that give no further information. Mat  ty  .  007
 * An important moment in Herm's political history was in 933, when the Channel Islands were annexed to the Duchy of Normandy (they are at present a British Crown Dependency since the division of Normandy in 1204). This is an incorrect use of a parenthetical statement; see .  I think a re-wording is in order here: "An important moment in Herm's political history was in 933, when the Channel Islands were annexed to the Duchy of Normandy, and remained so until they became a British Crown Dependency at the division of Normandy in 1204."
 * Attempted fix. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Did Herm lose its monastic inhabitants because Normandy was antagonistic towards them?
 * I can't find anything that says that. Mat  ty  .  007

19th century to World War II
 * I think you could combine the 1st 2 sentences.
 * Attempted. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Why was there an increase in population during the 19th century?
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * In the 19th century, industry arrived in Herm with the establishment of granite quarries. I don't think that you need to state that this happened in the 19th century, since that's the period of history you're talking about since the 1st paragraph/sentence.  Is there a more specific date for when the quarries were built?  If so, then it would dating when it happened during this time.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Why is Prince Blücher linked to Evelyn, Princess Blücher? And why did the wallabies not survive?
 * Ah. That one took some digging. I now know that the official PDF says the Prince owned it, his name given as "Prince Blucher von Wahlstatt". In the Princess' article, she married... " Gebhard Blücher von Wahlstatt". So they were husband and wife.I AGFed the source in the Princess article and used it here. The wallabies are actually rather interesting, I tried to clarify that section. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Herm had only a little German construction during the war; a flak battery was placed on the island, and mines were placed in an area. I think this could be tightened.  Were these the only two German construction?  If so, how about: "The only German construction on Herm during the war was a flak battery and some mines placed on one area of the island."
 * Again, I can't find anything that says this explicitly. Mat  ty  .  007

Operation Huckaback
 * I think it's okay to break the one-paragraph section policy here, since the article about this is small.
 * I wonder, since the main article is so small, if you need the main article template. I think that a link is adequate.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Huckaback was a British WWII military operation, which was reinvented as a raid on Herm alone of the channel islands... This phrase is unclear.  What does "reinvented" mean? I think you should explain that it was originally meant as a raid on Herm, Jethou and Brecqhou, but it became just a raid on Herm.
 * Attempted fix. Mat  ty  .  007

Since 1945
 * Again, combine the 1st 2 paragraphs, please.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * 1st sentence: The possessive ("its") here modifies "unspoilt island idyll", which although technically correct, is stilted. How about replacing "for" with the phrase "because it was an".  Specify who "the Crown" is, please.
 * Done both. Mat  ty  .  007
 * 2nd sentence: "Essentially derelict" is a peacocky-phrase. I suggest that you simply state that it was run down.  What manor, and what houses?  When did the mine explosion happen, and under what circumstances?  When you say "they" created a school, who are you talking about?
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Adrian and Pennie Wood Heyworth (Major Wood's daughter) succeeded them; Major Wood died in 1998. I'm not sure who the parenthetical is modifying; perhaps you remove it and state: "Major Woods' daughter Pennie Wood Heyworth and her husband Adrian Heyworth [if that's correct] succeeded..."  Who is "them"?  Did they succeed after Wood's death?  And I'm not sure what you mean by "tenants".  Are these people that rent property on the island, or are they residents?  Please explain.
 * Them is now clarified earlier. They succeeded the Major and his wife, as the article now says. They owned the island. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Their early efforts are recorded in the book by Jenny Wood, wife of the Major, Herm, Our Island Home. Unclear and stilted.  How about: "Their early efforts are recorded in Herm, Our Island Home, written by Hood's wife Jenny Wood.''
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * The final paragraph has too many passive sentences, which should be avoided here. You could just say, "The BBC reported that..."  Who was afraid about the lost identity?  Who made the announcement about Starboard Settlement?  Also you should give more description of Starboard; I'm not sure what a trust is.  What was the final price?  What's a "Guernsey company"?  I understand that the sources may not necessarily provide the answers to these questions, but if they're available, you should include them.
 * Done about BBC. Added who was worried. I don't know who made the original announcement about the trust. Linked trust. Final price undisclosed. Clarified that a Guernsey company is a company based in Guernsey. Mat  ty  .  007

I'll stop here for now, and will return sometime later this weekend. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Attempted fixes on all. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  11:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Language


 * I thought about combining some headings, as per above, but I don't think that we should, regardless of the policy, because it follows the structure of similar articles. If there was more information out there, it'd be easier to follow said policy.  I do think, though, that you could combine the "Language" and "Placenames" sections, and reword it so that it's all in one paragraph.  You could also reword it so that the discussion about the placenames could be supported by the language use.  This is what I'd do: "A number of French/Norman placenames remain, from the period when the island was in the jurisdiction of the Duchy of Normandy.  The Herm Island map, published by the tenant of Herm, states that main place names, including the island name itself, have unclear origins, although there is an un-official Anglicisation of names; for example, La Pointe du gentilhomme was changed to "Alderney Point".  The primary present dialect on Herm is English." [Foreign words and phrases are usually italicized.]
 * Changed. Mat  ty  .  007

Politics


 * Again, we're forced to break the multi-paragraph section rule, due to lack of information.
 * Herm is a dependency of Guernsey, and is in fact owned by the States of Guernsey, being rented out to various tenants (see List of tenants of Herm. Stilted and incorrect grammar use--"being" is an adjective, so you shouldn't use it as a conjunctive phrase.  It's also not encouraged to use WP as its own reference (WP:SELF), so I think you should remove the "see List of tenants of Herm" and put it in the "See also" section.  I also think that the phrase between the commas is unneccessary, for since the island is a dependency of Guernsey, it's of course owned by it.  How about this: "Herm is a dependency of Guernsey, and is rented out to various tenants."  I also think you should explain the tenant system a little; it would certainly bulk up the section.
 * Again, done, but a lack on info on what the tenants are. Mat  ty  .  007

Geography and geology
 * I think that you combine the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs. I'd keep the 1st paragraph separate, since it's about a different topic than the sentences that follow.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * The isle of Jethou is just to the south. Not specific enough, even though the image helps.  Please state how many miles to the south.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * It is said that in 709 AD... Who says?  I think you could remove those words, and start the sentence with "In 709 AD,..."  Is there any information about the effect of this event, other than separating the islands?
 * Changed to "it is possible", as the source is not definite. No other info available. Mat  ty  .  007
 * To the west is the channel Little Roussel (Petit Ruau) between it and Guernsey, and the Big Roussel (Grand Ruau) to the east, between it and Sark. Your use of the pronoun ("it") makes this unclear.  How about: "To the west, between Herm and Guernsey, lies the channel Little Roussel (Petit Ruau); between Herm and Sark, to the east, lies the Big Roussel (Grand Ruau)."
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * The tower in the Little Roussel between Herm and St Peter Port is the Bréhon Tower, a Victorian-era fortification. Stilted language.  How about: "The Bréhon Tower, a Victorian-era fortification, is in the Little Roussel, between Herm and St Peter Port."
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * I think that you could move the sentence about the bedrock to the 1st paragraph. I know you were trying to structure it in a specific way, but I think this is better, since it combines the geology concepts together and the tower info together.  Please disagree if you like.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Thomas Charles de Putron (1806–1869) used granite from Herm to construct the Bréhon Tower between 1854 and 1856. If you're going to combine this sentence with the previous paragraph, how about this: "The tower was constructed by Thomas Charles de Putron (1806–1869), who used the island's granite, between 1854 and 1856."  This also emphasizes that it was constructed from home-found materials.  Who is de Purton?  Please briefly identify him.  And are the dates he lived?
 * Done. No info on de Purton, other than the fact that he helped make some forts. The dates in brackets are his life dates. Mat  ty  .  007
 * In 2008, Adrian Heyworth, the then tenant, said that two or three meters of sand were being lost annually at Alderney Point. I think you could move this sentence up to the 1st paragraph, after the info about the granite bedrock, since they're similar ideas.  Please state what part of the island where Alderney Point is.  The sentence is also stilted, so how about: "Adrian Heyworth, who was the island's tenant at the time [or the years he served, if the information's available], said in 2008 that two or three meters of sand were being lost annually at Alderney Point."  Is there any information about why the sand was being lost?
 * Done structure. No info on why. Mat  ty  .  007

Sorry this is so hit-and-miss. This is a priority with me, so I'll return tomorrow to finish the prose review and start and complete the source review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:01, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Attempted fix of all. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  17:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Culture
 * Much of this section reads like a trivia section, which is to be avoided: WP:TRIVIA. I think that you could fold the content in other sections.  See below for my recommendations.
 * Compton Mackenzie, who owned the island, represented it in Fairy Gold, albeit in a fictional representation. This is unclear.  This has more to do with the how you utilize your sources, so I'll address what you can do about it in my source review.  Please hold off on doing anything with this for now.
 * I think the info about Gormley can be put in the "Geography and geology" section, after the Brehon Tower stuff. Briefly identify Gormley, please.  Why was the sculpture on the island temporary?  Also briefly identify the Another Time series, and why this sculpture was placed on Herm.
 * Done. Not much on the series, or why Herm though. Mat  ty  .  007
 * Again, I'll address the Britain in Bloom paragraph in the prose review section.
 * I think you could put the sentence about the residents in the "Politics" section, after the 2nd sentence, since you're talking about the tenants.
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007
 * I think you could also put the car ban info at the end of the "Politics" section, since it's about a particular law. Why does this law exist?
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007

Religion: I think that with some re-wording, the info here could be "Economy and buildings" section, since what's important is how the chapel is currently used. I'll address it next.

Economy and buildings
 * To make things easier, I'll just put a rewrite here, with my suggestion about what to do with the previous section, and then you can do with as you want. In my version, I've cut the first sentence; I explain why in my source review.
 * Tourism is Herm's main source of income. In a busy summer season, up to 100,000 tourists pass through Herm, via one of the Travel Trident catamaran ferries operated by the Trident Charter Company.
 * Buildings on the island includes the White House hotel, a pub and restaurant named "The Mermaid" and 20 self catering cottages. There is an obelisk on The Common, on the North of the island.  The White House has no clocks, televisions, or phones, which is described as "part of its charm", and has a return rate of 70%.  Herm has no consecrated religious buildings or resident professional clergy, but visiting clergy conducts non-denominational weekly services during the summer months, and monthly services, led by local lay people, are held during the winter."


 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007

Emergency services
 * Herm Fire Brigade operates a tractor-hauled fire tender with hose-reel, pump, 2,000-litre water tank, and basic fire-fighting equipment with which to tackle fires whilst awaiting assistance from the Guernsey Fire Brigade, who also provide the Herm volunteers with training and support. This could be more clear.  How about: "Herm Fire Brigade operates a tractor-hauled fire tender with a hose-reel, a pump, a 2,000-litre water tank, and basic fire-fighting equipment, which they use while waiting for assistance from the Guernsey Fire Brigade, who also provide the Herm volunteers with training and support."
 * Done. Mat  ty  .  007

Okay, done with prose review. Thanks for your patience; I'll move onto the source review shortly. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Attempted fix of all. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  20:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Source review

 * One of my biggest concerns with this article is how you utilize sources. I think that this article could be expanded further if you did a better job at this.  I'll go through the sources and explain what I mean.
 * Ref 1: The source states that between the 900s to 1569, Herm and all the Channel Islands was under the jurisdiction of the Duchy of Normandy, when Norman dukes gave its control to Norman monasteries. It also says "Monks lived on the island for several decades,  farming and giving religious instruction", but you don't state this anywhere in the article.  It states that Herm became a centre for British granite quarrying during the Industrial Revolution, and why, and where quarry remains can be found today, but that's not here, either.  400 quarrymen lived on the island to accommodate this, and that's why so many things were built during this period.  I could go on, but I think you get the point.  There are lots of information that just isn't included in this article that could be, which would bulk up the article and make it more interesting.  I'm afraid that this is the case for most of the sources used in this article.
 * Ref 2: Sure enough, you're missing information that can be garnered from here, too. The entire website is full of interesting stuff about the island's geology.  I'd also be interested in finding out the results of this study; I'm sure there's a paper written about it, and it'd be interesting to have its results here.


 * Ref 3: And again! This webpage talks about the unique geography; some of the information really should make its way here.
 * Ref 4: This entire webpage has more information that isn't utilized. For example, it connects Herm and Sark in some interesting ways.
 * I think that you can see a pattern emerging, so I'm not going to bother going through the rest of the sources, since I'm sure that I'd say the same thing about most of them. I'm inclined to fail this article for this reason; it can be argued that not utilizing the sources well enough doesn't fulfill GA Criteria #3, broadness.  However, the criteria also states that GAs are "shorter articles, articles that do not cover every major fact or detail, and overviews of large topics", so it can be said that this article is adequate to pass as GA.  This cursory review, along with the sources I looked at while I did my more exhaustive prose review, seem to satisfy Criteria #2.  I highly suggest that if you want to move further with this article, like onto FA status, you go through all the sources and make sure that you use all the information in them.

I'm not happy with how the sources are utilized, but I still think that this qualifies as a GA. I'll go ahead and pass it now. Thanks for your willingness to accept my feedback, and for your patience. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:58, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your review, and for your help in getting this to GA status. I will work on the source issues at some point, likely after the Cup I'm afraid. Thanks again, Mat  ty  .  007  19:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)