Talk:Herman Cain Award

About this page
This page is a split of the "HermanCainAward" section in the article Controversial Reddit communities. The content copied in the first edit here is the 29 Dec 2021 text at special:permalink/10626985431062698543.

I split this into its own article for the following reasons:


 * 1) There have been multiple discussions about whether or how to have Wikipedia articles about COVID deniers who died of COVID. I think the existence of this article as a stand-alone topic would complement those discussions. See
 * 2) Deaths of anti-vaccine advocates from COVID-19
 * 3) Articles for deletion/Critics of COVID-19 safety measures that have died from COVID-19
 * 4) Articles for deletion/List of COVID-19 deniers who died of COVID-19
 * 5) Articles for deletion/List of prominent COVID-19 sceptics who have died from COVID-19
 * 6) The article Controversial Reddit communities has 72kb of readable prose, so per WP:SIZESPLIT, it is large enough to merit splitting. The Herman Cain Award is the longest subsection in the article, which makes it the best candidate for splitting as it adds wp:UNDUE weight to the article's scope as a list and overview.
 * 7) This topic has received a lot of media coverage and passes WP:GNG.

 Bluerasberry  (talk)  00:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Award or online forum?
This article could be titled "Herman Cain Award" or "r/HermanCainAward" after the online forum where its community established it. When I forked this article I had to write a first sentence and set the title. I framed it as being about the award, because I feel that already the award exists independently as topic in the media independently of the reddit platform. Also I feel that the community has since developed the award in twitter at https://twitter.com/hermancainaward, so even the crowdsourced nature of the award is not tied to its original platform. If anyone has other thoughts then share.  Bluerasberry  (talk)  00:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The article should be clear that this sardonic "award" exists solely on Internet forums (not unlike the early Darwin Awards). There is no actual (physical and/or monetary) award to be given out, just a set of tagged Reddit posts. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:31, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I tried to describe the award at special:diff/1066750556/1066754140. I see you added a sort of description also. The article needs copyediting.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  23:55, 19 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The award itself is death. It's wrong to say (as the article does currently, citing a Slate article that doesn't support the claim) that the award is a piece of text that says "Awarded". The subreddit's posting-rules page is clear on this point: "Award is granted upon the nominee's release from their Earthly shackles." TypoBoy (talk) 23:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Archiving tweets
At There is an image collection of archived tweets. The twitter account from which these came may have deleted them. If so, Internet Archive may have copies. However, to get copies, one needs the twitter id. Twitter IDs would also fact check the content's correctness.
 * https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pncpqu/because_i_saw_newbies_asking_why_this_is_called/

Does anyone have the twitter IDs for the content in these images? At least one tweet would make a good illustration for this article with tweet. I prefer the first one which calls COVID "Wuhan Flu" then says that it does not exist. The final tweet, presumably issued by his staff or automation on a schedule continuing after his death and calling the virus not deadly is also a good choice.

Even for tweets not displayed, having their IDs here in a section of this talk page would be good for fact checking and understanding other sources cited.  Bluerasberry  (talk)  23:22, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Here are the tweets in question that I have found so far: WhisperToMe (talk) 05:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 1. Not yet
 * 2. "Ignore the outrage, ignore the thugs" http://web.archive.org/web/20200620202934/https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1274438874253496320
 * 3. "Masks will not be mandatory" http://web.archive.org/web/20200701215244/https://twitter.com/thehermancain/status/1278444266881273856 and https://archive.is/Fwdw7
 * 4. "Black Voices for Trump" http://web.archive.org/web/20200620235808/https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1274489632886075398
 * 5. "Sorry to Announce" https://web.archive.org/web/20200702193530/https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1278735184893009921
 * 6. "Cain Embodied" http://web.archive.org/web/20210120172938/https://twitter.com/presssec45/status/1288850145329676289 (Press Sec 45 tweet)
 * 7. "Not as deadly" http://web.archive.org/web/20200830231940/https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1300211456126803968
 * 8. "Sir, the virus killed you." http://web.archive.org/web/20200831052748/https://twitter.com/drmistercody/status/1300304232088707072 (Cody Johnston tweet)
 * 9. "Herman Cain being killed by a pandemic" https://twitter.com/bfriedmandc/status/1300324055640412161 Brandon Friedman tweet

I also found a post stating "Don't believe the scare stories. A serious look at the numbers tells you there's no second wave starting. #Coronavirus" (June 2020) https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1271367024963248128 (archive https://archive.is/O10OV ) WhisperToMe (talk) 17:30, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I added a tweet and template to the article. Good job finding all those. What interesting context. Here is my edit, in case someone in the future wants to see the current look.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  13:38, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Number of opinions and WEIGHT
I recall some of the opinions about this community in Controversial Reddit communities were removed for WP:WEIGHT reasons. Now that this has its own article, it may be good to find out roughly how many opinion columnists hold a particular view and use that to weigh out the amount of the reception space given to each viewpoint. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm generally not in favor of using opinion columnists unless they're a recognized expert in a relevant field. Tallying up the number of hot takes on any given side of an issue smacks of original research IMO. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:27, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Personally I'm fine with filtering through recognized experts if there are so many opinions that we are forced to choose the most prominent ones. Otherwise I'm OK with using non-recognized experts who have their viewpoints appear in newspapers or magazines recognized as reliable sources, as being published is the "filter" for whether something is OR or not, so long as it adheres to Jimbo Wales's dictum at Neutral_point_of_view:
 * "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with references to commonly accepted reference texts;
 * If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
 * If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true, or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article."
 * That's where I get the idea of "tallying" what these columnists say. I mainly work in "less dense" subjects where there are relatively fewer available published sources for a subject.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 23:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Founder
Only one source claims that Wendy Northcutt is the founder or creator of the subreddit. Since she is in fact the creator of the Darwin Awards, I suspect there may have been a misunderstanding on the source's part. As far as I can tell, she herself has not publicly declared any association with the Herman Cain Award, so I believe this information should be removed. Just my 2c. Tnx. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:5E1A:800:9996:5EE5:65:B08A (talk) 01:02, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

The founder of the Herman Cain Award subreddit is not Wendy Northcutt. According to the Washington Post, who sat down and interviewed the moderation team, the founder is an academic researcher named Bob, 53, who lives in the Los Angeles area. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/anti-vaccine-deaths-no-sympathy/2021/10/06/779488e6-20ad-11ec-8200-5e3fd4c49f5e_story.html Hubrisandscandals (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Full disclosure of COI: I am a member of the moderation team of the Herman Cain Award subreddit. Hubrisandscandals (talk) 00:38, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Needs a section on chapo trap house Flynnwasframed (talk) 22:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)