Talk:Hermann Müller (politician, born 1876)

Untitled
There should be a disambiguation page that leads to Hermann Joseph Muller (no umlaut). 209.226.83.162 17:40, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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External links modified
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 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/MuellerHermann/index.html

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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 * Wappen Deutsches Reich (Weimarer Republik).svg

Incorrect photo
The photo labelled as Mueller's first Cabinet is in fact him meeting UK Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald 82.32.13.170 (talk) 20:27, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You seem to be correct, the description of this similar photo at getty images says it is from 1928 (not 1920) and also identifies MacDonald and some others. BegbertBiggs (talk) 00:06, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 1 December 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. After relisting this discussion for about three to four times, I believe that everyone will agree with me that there is no consensus to move this page at this time. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans  06:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

– Noting this page was until recently Hermann Müller (politician). Müller the chancellor seems to be the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here, with all other Hermann Müllers who use disambiguators only reaching single and double digit pageviews, as well as having greater long-term significance as one of the last Weimar chancellors. Curbon7 (talk) 22:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 18:10, 10 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 18:13, 10 December 2023 (UTC)  — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 21:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hermann Müller (politician, born 1876) → Hermann Müller
 * Hermann Müller → Hermann Müller (disambiguation)


 * Support, agree this one is the primary topic in terms of both aspects. Here's a link to the |Hermann_M%C3%BCller_(Idstein)|Hermann_M%C3%BCller|Hermann_M%C3%BCller_(botanist)|Hermann_M%C3%BCller_(Thurgau)|Hermann_M%C3%BCller_(athlete)|Hermann_M%C3%BCller_(cyclist) pageviews, for reference. BegbertBiggs (talk) 23:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:PT2 and pageviews. &#8209;&#8209;Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 00:36, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, per above. The next most notable Hermann Mullers seems to be the Nobel laureates Hermann Joseph Muller and Paul Hermann Müller but they are partial matches. Sahaib (talk) 01:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Hermann_M%C3%BCller indicates there's practically equal interest in the politician and the geneticist, plus a long tail, so I don't think we should move without a more coherent rationale that would clearly override this. Also, the geneticist isn't a partial match, which is apparent already from the article, which references him without the middle name at least a couple of times. (Oppose) --Joy (talk) 13:45, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * One thing to note here is that the geneticist doesn't have an umlaut, and this proposal is for the umlaut, but the name lists are squashed together. Should we split them up? --Joy (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I was also going to point out the umlaut difference, as I don't believe that people looking for the geneticist will type in the name with umlaut. Consequently I don't think Hermann (Joseph) Muller is a contender to be the primary topic for "Hermann Müller". Meanwhile, people going via might be looking for either Hermann Joseph Muller or any of the people properly spelled "Müller", so that redirect may be retargeted to Hermann Müller (disambiguation) after the move. As for splitting the dab page, the geneticist is the only person on there with that specific spelling, all the others have the "ü" or (in one case) "ue". BegbertBiggs (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We could just split off the diacriticless version to become a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to the geneticist, and leave a hatnote to that effect over there. Later, the stats could be checked to see if that was useful or not. --Joy (talk) 23:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Joy. There are ten men listed upon the Hermann Müller disambiguation page, with little indication that the German political figure from a hundred years ago, who served as chancellor for a total period of less than two years, dwarfs the combined renown of the remaining nine men. As for the main title header of this disambiguation page, it would seem that Hermann Müller should redirect to Hermann Muller, rather than Hermann Muller redirecting to Hermann Müller, as it currently does. Since English Wikipedia users have to type Hermann Muller to access this dab page and two among the ten men — Hermann Joseph Muller and Herman Carl Mueller — do not use the diacritic, the main header should only use the diacritic if all entries, without exception, use it. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:08, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure your first sentence makes much sense in terms of WP:PT2. Though he only served as chancellor for a short period, he is quite well covered in historiography due to the period he served in, the cusp of the Great Depression and immediately preceding the Nazi takeover. Curbon7 (talk) 23:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the navigation of the average English reader is so critically impacted by just the visibility of the umlauts that we need to remove it from the title just because a minority of entries don't have it. Rather, I think this should be organized based on how the average English reader would naturally distinguish these. Since the Germans in the list seem to consistently have the umlaut, and the American doesn't, and the pronunciations are probably consistently different like that, that seems like a decent point of distinction and we should split these up. An English speaker who can't pronounce the German "Müller" can still easily recognize that it's probably not quite the same as standard American English "Muller" (WP:SMALLDETAILS), the little squiggly things probably wouldn't be there just randomly unless it's some novelty topic, and it's reasonably clear that historical biographies aren't like that. --Joy (talk) 09:54, 15 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This practice of moving the most sought amongst a highly obscure group to the least least recognizable and inconsistent title is stupid. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If your issue is with WP:Disambiguation itself, then it may be more productive if you raise the issue at WP:VPP. Curbon7 (talk) 02:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Issue is with forcing the reasonably worded WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to apply in relative terms to cases of extremely low usage and extremely low long-term significance . Amplifying insignificance relative even less significance . There has to be some absolute threshold. All of these Hermann Müllers are pretty obscure and of low significance . There is no PrimaryTopic.  Forcing one where there is none helps no reader and hurts readers. RECOGNIZABILITY and CONSISTENCY are important. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:38, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've laid out how I think he has long-term significance above, so I won't re-hash that. Curbon7 (talk) 02:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * On review, I think I focused on low pageviews, and carelessly wrote about significance. Actually, several of these Hermann Müllers are pretty significant people.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "at least 50,000 people took part in the funeral procession in Berlin, and another 350,000 people lined his path". Pretty significant. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:11, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose Not seeing a primary topic on pageviews (and one of the others is a Nobel laureate), but support Hermann Müller (chancellor) per WP:NCPDAB as dewiki and nlwiki do, and suggest boldly moving Hermann Müller (politician, born 1935) to Hermann Müller (mayor) too. Hameltion (talk &#124; contribs) 23:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I like these suggestions. I like the idea of disambiguators being actually helpful to recognizability, and I like the notion of considering what is done at the native language Wikipedia, ie. de:Hermann Müller (Reichskanzler), "Chancellor of the Reich".
 * - SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment: I don't see a consensus forming for the proposed move, however, there is an alternative proposal by Hameltion that's worth considering. – robertsky (talk) 21:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * I'm not supporting the original request, I'm rather supporting Hameltion's proposal above: Hermann Müller (politician, born 1876) → Hermann Müller (chancellor) and Hermann Müller (politician, born 1935) → Hermann Müller (mayor) as that makes more sense. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose and keep as they are. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)