Talk:Herr Mannelig

Is this really a medieval song? I thought there was no evidence for that. The earliest source I know is from 1877, in this collection  or more specifically the first song in the PDF file of volume 1. It lists both melody and text (Bergatrollets frieri). There is a text variant (Skogsjungfruns frieri) in volume 3 of the same collection. --130.217.240.32 (talk) 05:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * swedish wikipedia states here that what is commonly referred to as medeltida ballader (medieval ballads) often comes from a later period. don't know about english use of the term though. k kisses 22:13, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The language illustrated here is not Old Swedish but 19th century-Swedish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.204.172 (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Before Garmarna (I think?) did this version popular. The most usually performed version was the versions based on the myth of Duke Magnus of Östergötland. Usually named like "Herr Magnus och havstrollet" or "Herr Magnus och älvorna" or something like that. Which version is oldest and how old is probably hard to now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.199.3.175 (talk) 03:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

English translation
Hi from Sweden. I noted that the English translation is more different from the original text than necessary, and thus it isn't very useful for study/reference. Also, is the translation originally from e.g. a CD booklet, such as that of Garmarna's album Guds spelemän? If so, do any copyright issues arise? In any case, I made a new translation, to which I added a few remarks in brackets. I suppose the text comes out awkward in English, but I tried to convey the original as closely as possible, so please avoid changing it unless it really, really is needed. The change from "you" to "thou" is intentional, since the troll speaks with in the polite plural and the young man doesn't. The previously used translation is this:

Early one morning before the sun did rise And the birds sang their sweet song The mountain troll proposed to the fair squire She had a false deceitful tongue

Sir Mannelig, Sir Mannelig won't you marry me   For all that I'll gladly give you You may answer only yes or no   Will you do so or no

To you I will give the twelve great steeds That graze in a shady grove Never has a saddle been mounted on their backs Nor had a bit in their mouths

To you I will give the twelve fine mills That stand between Tillo and Terno The mill stones are made of the reddest brass And the wheels are silver-laden

To you I will give the gilded sword That jingles from fifteen gold rings And strike with it in battle as you will On the battlefield you will conquer

To you I will give a brand new shirt The lustrous best for to wear It is not sewn with needle or thread But crocheted of the whitest silk

Gifts such as these I would gladly receive If you were a Christian woman But I know you are the worst mountain troll From the spawn of the Neck and the devil

The mountain troll ran out the door She wailed and she shrieked so loudly "Had I gotten that handsome squire   From my torment I would be free now"

Sir Mannelig, Sir Mannelig won't you marry me   For all that I'll gladly give you You may answer only yes or no   Will you do so or no — 77.105.196.184 (talk) 10:37, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I also wonder why the translation is differing beyond what seems necessary. Apart from the aforementioned issues (politeness) it is changing the explicit meaning of the following verse:

Eder vill jag gifva en skjorta så ny   Den bästa I lysten att slita Inte är hon sömnad av nål eller trå Men virkat av silket det hvita

Previous translation:

To you I wish to give a shirt so new The best you will want to wear It [literally: she] was not sewn by needle or thread But crocheted of white silk

Actual written meaning:

To you I wish to give a shirt so new The best in lust to tear It [literally: she] was not sewn by needle or thread But crocheted of white silk

Is there some kind of guideline of obscuring explicit meaning in translated lyrics? Since the original is not obscured and comparable English original texts probably are neither, I don't see the point.

85.225.36.137 (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The guideline is that the full lyrics go to wikisource and should not appear here. Translations posted there need to be both published and in the public domain. Excerpts quoted in the context of the discussion in the article body can be given ad-hoc translations if necessary, within the scope of discussing the song based on published references (i.e. avoiding WP:SYNTH). --dab (𒁳) 08:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The introduced distinction between "you" and "thou" is not useful in an English translation, as this distinction is not something English speakers will understand. The great majority of people will understand "thou" to be old-fashioned only, and "you" to be current usage.84.51.156.163 (talk) 16:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Scope
Instead of treating a random version of a folksong as recorded in 1877, it would be much more WP:ENCyclopedic to make this about the "undines" topos in folklore, covering Melusine, Paracelsus, Undine and derived Romantic compositions as well as their reflection in folklore. The 1877 version is particularly atypical because of the "mountain troll", as all other versions seem to have either a wood-nymph or (most often) a water-nymph. --dab (𒁳) 14:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * No. This article is about the Swedish folk song "Herr Mannelig," which has become a staple of the Neofolk/Neomedieval music genre and is certainly notable enough to warrant its own article. There is a separate article about undines; that article deals with everything you are talking about here and more. There is not even an undine in the song "Herr Mannelig"; the song is about a "mountain troll," not an aquatic spirit. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)