Talk:Herta Bothe

BDM?
What is BDM? Matt 21:06, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I quote the first sentence from the German Wikipedia on BDM: "Der Bund Deutscher Mädel (BDM) und der oftmals dazugezählte, strenggenommen aber davon zu trennende Jungmädelbund waren die Abteilungen der Hitler-Jugend, in der die Mädchen im Alter von 10 bis 18 Jahren organisiert waren."

My German is far from perfect, but translated this would be something like "The Union of German Girls. The divisions of the Hitler-Jugend, that organised girls aged 10 to 18, was often considered a part of the BDM, though stricly speaking these were separate organisations."

Maybe someone more fluent in both languages could provide a decent translation of the full german article on this subject?--El.tula 22:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

bert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.130.100.234 (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

With some delay, I may add that the translation of the topmost quote about BDM and Jungmädelbund is inaccurate. Effectively, it rather reads: The girls divisions of the Hitler Jugend were 1) the Bund Deutscher Mädel (Union of German Girls) and 2) Jungmädelbund (Younger Girls Union). Those divisions were entirely seperated and independent from each other. --- I do not claim that the above quote has any basis in fact. I merely translated from German to English. For further information, the correspondent articles may be consulted.88.69.149.146 (talk) 01:38, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Herta Bothe or Herta Getrude Lange
Hozro, I do understand the reference and the point of your edit. However, the body of the article already stated that Herta Bothe's name changed to Herta Getrude Lange and she lived in Alabama. It is true that that part was not cited from what I can see. But the previous citation in the article is an obituary from March 29, 2011 which states that a "Herta Getrude Lange" of Huntsville, Alabama died on March 23, 2011, aged 90. Which places her birth date in 1921 or 1920. Which matches the Wikipedia article. Putting two and two together, I don't think this is a different person. Do you think that a different Herta Getrude Lange lived in Alabama?Hoops gza (talk) 02:49, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Huntsville was added 2011-03-29 by an IP, quoting the nwaonline, *after* the aleged death. Bothe changed her name after being released from prison to Herta Lange, that seems to be true. But, sorry, I see no evidence that she moved to Huntsville or is the same person as Herta Gertrude Lange. de:Herta Bothe says. she lived in North Germany. By the way: de:Lange is a very common (north-)german name. --Hozro (talk) 10:51, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

If you go to the Brashear Funeral Home webpage in Huntsville Alabama, it shows a picture of Herta in the obituary and a short bio. This is clearly a different Herta Bothe that died in Huntsville. The real Herta Bothe Lange is still presumably alive in Northern Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.208.62 (talk) 03:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Death
An unregistered editor disputes the content that Bothe is dead. The reference for her death is, which appears to be a reasonably neutral citation. The unregistered editor is instead offering and  as evidence that she is alive. These references are not particularly appealing as reliable sources. I will remove any reference to her death until other editors have had an opportunity to comment, and the matter can be resolved. Thanks, WWGB (talk) 02:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: This reference from 2004/5 reports her living, with no subsequent references to her death. WWGB (talk) 01:55, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

the website used as reference to her death is not an accurate source of information there are atleast four other websites saying that she did not die on march 16th 2000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.34.227 (talk) 18:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There is conflicting information here. I saw this on the list of Living people on EN wiki who are dead on other wikis and all three cite this as a source, with the death date being March 23, 2011. I think this should be discussed along with the above. Steven Zhang  The clock is ticking....  05:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no evidence to connect "Herta Gertrude Lange, 90, of Huntsville" with the subject of this article. It is more likely that two different people have the same name and age, than the US government would allow a war criminal to migrate there. WWGB (talk) 05:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed, that might be true. What do you propose we do here, as three other wikis list the subject of this article as deceased? Steven Zhang  The clock is ticking....  05:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't want to sound blasé, but surely that's an issue for the editors of those wikis? Two use the NWA ref and one uses the bergenbelsen ref, neither of which have been accepted here. WWGB (talk) 06:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * That may be so, however this article is still listed at one of the database reports. Not sure what we can do here... Steven Zhang  The clock is ticking....  06:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, I've just seen this discussion, after citing the death deate from bergenbelsen.co.uk. Is this incorrect/unreliable?  Lugnuts  (talk) 11:07, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

The German and Dutch Wikipedia articles on this woman list her as having died March 16, 2000. I think we can all agree that they would know better than us. I would otherwise move to have the entire English article deleted if we can't agree on something as basic and important as whether she is alive or dead.Gorlionolio (talk) 14:50, 8 March 2019 (UTC)


 * No, in fact we can agree on exactly the opposite. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone could have added that information to the German and Dutch Wikipedias and completely made it up. Unless it is backed up by a reliable source, it is not valid. Furthermore, since per above we have sources listing her as alive past 2000, we cannot list that as her date of death until we have absolute proof. As for deleting the article, there are plenty of people whom we don't know if they are alive or dead due to gaps in the historical record. That does not make them any less notable. Canadian   Paul  04:51, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

There is no proof of her "being alive" after that date. An incomplete alternative bio is not proof of life. There was a 1999 interview she did which was incorrectly attributed as having been filmed in 2004 and we agreed on it. There was also an unrelated American woman named Herta Lange who we know died in 2011. As had been mentioned before, Herta Bothe would have been denied US citizenship on the basis of her former employment by the Nazi government. The decedent in 2011 was not Herta Bothe but the possessor of an extremely common and coincidental name. Gorlionolio (talk) 14:43, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Time to put this to bed once and for all by evaluating the evidence. Bothe is not alive at 98.5, nor did she somehow manage to cheat the U.S. immigration system and take residence in Alabama despite being convicted for war crimes by British prosecutors after World War II (definitely the silliest claim of all of the original research on this talk page). The Bergen Belsen website, which was put together by a researcher in this field claims that she died in March 2000, and it is claimed this information was sourced from speaking directly with her daughter. It was the strongest independent source for Bothe's fate, yet was trivialised over confusion as to when the documentary (which was produced in 1999, see: http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/MediaSources.html) was made. This confusion was probably due to the fact that the footage was clipped and reused in subsequent documentaries that aired in later years and therefore gave the impression that she had been interviewed in 2004, 2009 etc. I believe this confusion came about after they were posted on YouTube with these years being incorrectly cited for when the interview took place. The only source worth looking at that suggests she was alive after 2000 was a British tabloid article called "Nazi She Devils", 2005 by The Mirror (here: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nazi-she-devils-566055). Knowing what we know now about the interview being from 1999, the content of this article can be dismissed as misleading, sloppy tabloid journalism. It quotes a line from the 1999 interview, yet says it was from "this year" (2005) and thus gives the impression she was still alive at this point. If this isn't enough, a new May 2019 academic source, which details the biographies and subsequent fates of Holocaust perpetrators and collaborators cites this death date for Bothe and I have added this as a second source to back up the March 2000 claim on her page (you can find it here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SymBDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA44&dq=herta+bothe+2000&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI_vqFiIfjAhUUu3EKHfRaCkwQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=herta%20bothe%202000&f=false). If anyone wishes to further challenge this now, I invite them to do so. But all good sources out there come to the same conclusion - this woman died in March 2000 and had editors, myself included, actually sourced the origin of that interview earlier, we probably would've been able to separate the truth from the confusion long before now. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 12:04, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Later life?
Anything on the later part of her long life? Has she ever married? Valetude (talk) 22:58, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The German Wiki says that she maried Herr Lange around 1952.72.82.129.209 (talk) 03:21, 27 March 2016 (UTC)ShmartyPants

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Herta Bothe. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://journals.aol.com/rappcom/HERTABOTHEherlifeasafemaleNaziSS
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/11/21/nazi-she-devils-115875-16393907
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://journals.aol.com/rappcom/HERTABOTHEherlifeasafemaleNaziSS/

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