Talk:Heterodox Academy/Archive 4

Appending Chris Martin to list of founders

 * What I think should be changed: The list of founders should be changed to Jonathan Haidt, Chris Martin, and Nicholas Rosenkranz. Note I made a similar request in 2020, but am providing additional evidence now. The two speeches in the reference section are by Deb Mashek, former executive director of Heterodox Academy, and Jon Haidt, co-founder of Heterodox Academy.
 * Why it should be changed: The current version is inaccurate because it only lists two people.
 * References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Chris (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

We should revisit the treatment of founders as a whole, as it seems completely undue in the lede.

Using self-published sources about themselves to include mention of a non-notable person is problematic. Do they have something that looks like an authoritative history of their organization? --Hipal (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Why do you think self published sources are problematic? Chris (talk) 13:57, 12 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The issues to my mind, are WP:DUE and, somewhat tangentially, WP:NOTABILITY. IF secondary sources take no notice of a fact in a self-published source, then it likely doesn't belong in our article.  As ever, reasonable minds may differ.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:02, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Rauch’s book is a secondary source that mentions the three founders. Chris (talk) 14:05, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Other secondary sources are here: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/tough-choice-faces-the-heterodox-academy

https://cas.appstate.edu/news/sociology-professor-joins-prestigious-writers-group

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/jonathan-haidt-pandemic-and-americas-polarization/612025/

https://www.templeton.org/grant/promoting-open-inquiry-viewpoint-diversity-and-constructive-disagreement-on-american-college-campuses-and-in-the-disciplines

Chris (talk) 14:10, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm writing to follow up on this issue since there hasn't been further discussion. I don't see how WP:DUE or WP:NOTABILITY related to this topic. I'm not requesting a distinct Wikipedia page for myself. I don't expect my name to be hyperlinked (although like Nicholas Rosenkranz, I am a professor and have several peer reviewed publications.) I do expect the page to be factually accurate and unbiased. By omitting one co-founder (me), the page is biased and inaccurate. It's also bears mentioning that I'm the only cofounder that is a non-White immigrant to the U.S., so there's a larger bias issue. I have provided eight sources above to support the claim that there are three founders.

If you think I am not one of the cofounders, I would appreciate an explanation of how eight sources, including The Templeton Foundation, The Atlantic, a book by Jonathan Rauch, and another book by Eric Kaufmann (i.e., Whiteshift, see link below) mention that I'm one of the cofounders.

Link to relevant page in Whiteshift: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Whiteshift/F9mEDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22jonathan%20haidt%22%20%22Chris%20Martin%22%20%22heterodox%20academy%22&pg=PT408&printsec=frontcover&bsq=%22jonathan%20haidt%22%20%22Chris%20Martin%22%20%22heterodox%20academy%22

--Chris (talk) 18:27, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Chris. I was hoping someone new would step in to review the situation and respond to your edit request. I'm closing this one and requesting you make a new one with clearly independent sources. I think you have identified multiple such sources to use. You may want to review Guide to effective COI edit requests before making the request. --Hipal (talk) 17:19, 14 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi Hipal, per the WP:ABOUTSELF section, self-published sources may be used as sources about themselves. Thus, the Heterodox Academy site can be used as a source about who founded Heterodox Academy. In addition to the speeches above, you may refer to the About Us page of Heterodox Academy. Chris (talk) 14:25, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Please make a new edit request. --Hipal (talk) 16:08, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

In the spirit of openness!
I just posted to WP:RSN to see if anyone there might want to weigh in. This is not meant as an attack on anyone; just because I sort of have quibbles and am not personally sure if they're right or I am just being pedantic. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:07, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Appending Chris Martin to list of founders (II)
Two changes -- founder = Jonathan Haidt, Chris Martin, Nicholas Quinn Rosenkranz
 * Specific text to be added or removed:

Text change: In 2015, Haidt was contacted by Nicholas Quinn Rosenkranz, a Georgetown University law professor, who had given a talk to the Federalist Society discussing a similar lack of conservatives in law and similarly argued that this undermines the quality of research and teaching. He was also contacted by Chris Martin, a sociology graduate student at Emory University, who had published a similar paper in The American Sociologist about the lack of ideological diversity in sociology. Haidt, Martin, and Rosenkranz formed "Heterodox Academy" to address this issue.


 * Reason for the change: The article is currently biased because it doesn't acknowledge the work of one of the founders by omitting his name. This is not a request to create a new wikipedia article about Chris Martin, and thus the notability rules are moot. Note the WP:ABOUTSELF guidelines for the About Us page cited below. As an aside, editors should also note that there is no longer an interim executive director. Heterodox Academy now has a president, John Tomasi. Deb Mashek's term as director also ended (she resigned) so it would be nice to mention that.


 * References supporting change:

Chris (talk) 13:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I revised the text above today (January 28) to provide more context around the change and hence the sentence about my article. Note that the use of references to Jon Haidt's talk is in line with the use of founder's statements about the companies they have founded, e.g., Y Combinator and overall the references to non-independent in line with the WP:ABOUTSELF guidelines. Thus, it's not a violation of the independent sources rule. There are also independent sources to buttress the other references. Chris (talk) 14:22, 28 January 2022 (UTC)


 * . Hi. I've partially implemented this request: Christ Martin has been added to the founder section of the infobox and I've added him to the list of founders in the prose. I was unable to verify He was also contacted by Chris Martin, a sociology graduate student at Emory University, who had published a similar paper in The American Sociologist about the lack of ideological diversity in sociology. from the sources provided, so I've not added that for now. If you have additional sources verifying that sentence feel free to post a new edit request and ping me by inserting in the text of the new request. --  Asartea   Talk  &#124;  Contribs  16:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * following discussion on the IRC help channel I've also added the extra sentence. -- Asartea   Talk  &#124;  Contribs  16:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)