Talk:Heteromeles/Archive 1

Initial ratings for Wikiproject California set forth
I have attached a tag identifying this article as part of Wikiproject California and established initial ratings as follows:


 * class:Start
 * Based upon:
 * NPOV: Pass
 * References:Fair
 * Images:Fair
 * Breadth:Beyond stub, but needs more on range and ecological significance to approach GA
 * Wikification:Pass


 * importance:Mid
 * Based upon the fact that this is a prominent native shrub fairly broadly distributed and associated with many other ecological interactions. Anlace 04:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Several book excerpts online mention this plant as California holly. Furthermore, it supposedly is the catalyst for the seasonal mass intoxication of robins. Anyone have any credible information to offer about this? 129.120.8.198 00:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * While it is certainly correct that the botany books always mention "California holly" as an alternate name, in modern usage it is only "toyon", at least that I've heard. The berries are small, bright red, prominent in December, and the leaves are slightly holly-like, so the name is obvious, even if increasingly obscure. It is also noted in books (and verified by original research) that a small flock of birds can strip the ripe berries from a bush very quickly. Perhaps the robins are more overloaded than drunk, but I haven't seen any studies on this. However I do recall that the local tribes are supposed to have brewed an cider from the cooked berries, so it may have be a natural progression. It may not take much to get a robin tipsy. -Willmcw 10:00, August 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Toyon as the best name to use; "California holly" implies it is a species of holly (Ilex), which it isn't - MPF 23:02, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Hollywood namesake
In this [https://blog.treepeople.org/environment/2012/12/hollywood-name#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20the%20name%20Hollywood,was%20then%20called%20Holly%20Canyon. web page] it is stated that the name Hollywood has been inspired by the plant's name. Should it be included in the article? Aminabzz (talk) 10:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Christmasberry
An external reference (Collin's, I think) identifies the Christmasberry as Photinia arbutifolia, reinforcing the identification in this article as "Christmas berry" (two words). However, both Schinus and Boxthorn claim identity with "Christmas berry". What's the deal here - is this something regional maybe? I am not a botanist; I just tripped over this one in WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles. David Brooks 00:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It may have been in the Photinia genus previously? Anyway, multiple claims like this are not unheard of.Kortoso (talk) 18:36, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Good point. I've updated this page and added to Christmasberry. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:43, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh, what a flower
Can anybody say what the origin of the word toyon is? TREKphiler  hit me ♠  10:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Etymology: AmSp, also tollon, prob. < Nahuatl name"--Curtis Clark (talk) 02:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * (very belated *whew*) Thanx.  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  02:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It's from the Ohlone language, orignally "tottcon". http://jeanmarshdesign.com/?p=249 Kortoso (talk) 21:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Toyon berries?
The berries in the photo look suspiciously like rowan berries. Is everyone sure this is really toyon? If you search for "toyon" on the Internet, the images that come up look slightly different. I am not a botanist, but even the leaves of the plant in the main picture look different from the leaves in the "Toyon berries" picture. Just wondering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.89.103.13 (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Good catch! Yes, that does look like Sorbus. I wonder if it was the rootstock of a grafted tree whose top had died. i've removed the image, since I don't see a good substitute. Nadiatalent (talk) 13:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * File:Starr 021126-0031 Heteromeles arbutifolia.jpg: This file does not look like Heteromeles arbutifolia to me. The leaves are not serrated for one thing, and the berries are all wrong. If anyone thinks differently let me know, otherwise I'll post a note on the file's discussion page.   Will Beback    talk    20:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The above image is definitely not H. arbuitfolia! Good catch.  --NoahElhardt (talk) 04:00, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Strangely, it's identified on the source as Photinia davidiana Photinia. Either the identification was fixed, or there was a mistake in the uploading process.    Will Beback    talk    06:40, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. We're talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heteromeles_arbutifolia_fruit.jpg, no? I haven't figured out how to put comments on images, so if someone can enlighten me that would be a big help. Nadiatalent (talk) 13:18, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I didn't know that was the picture in question. I agree it looks mis-identified. The photographer is an active editor. I'll leave a note on his talk page.   Will Beback    talk    19:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm..... Until I just saw the native elevation for Heteromeles arbutifolia, I thought my photo was that plant based on these photos from CalPhotos (UC Berkeley):  They show a very similar plant, with serrated leaves, which are not so exaggeratedly opposite as the Rowan. My photo was of a wild shrub, growing in open forest at about 6,000 ft - now I see that it is generally considered native up to 4,000 ft. But the CalPhotos images are a puzzle, since they seem so similar.  First Light (talk) 20:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The leaves of Heteromeles appear to be relatively longer than Rowan leaves, more leathery (or less translucent), and to be less deeply serrated.   Will Beback    talk    21:01, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Rowan has compound leaves (it is the leaflets that are opposite). I tend to think that the plant in question has compound leaves; the lef/leaflet that covers the left side of the infructescence doesn't appear to have a bud in its axil (this is one of the quickest ways to tell a leaflet from a leaf). There are a few Sorbus species in California, and they are all at higher elevations than toyon, so it might be one of those.--Curtis Clark (talk) 01:40, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Was this plant growing in California? Do you have any other photos, for example a view of the buds? Here's an attempt to identify that single photo using McAllister, H.A. 2005. The genus Sorbus: Mountain Ash and other Rowans. Kew Publishing. Identifications using this book will differ from older work, because the author has been somewhat drastic in lumping some earlier taxa into a Sorbus californica aggregate (based on knowing that they are tetraploid, asexual, and not geographically distinct from one another). The possibilities for western North America are S. scopulina (including S. dumosa), S. californica aggregate, S. occidentalis, S. sitchensis. S. scopulina is not found west of the crest of the Cascade Mountains; S. californica could match, and does occur west of the crest of the Cascades; S. occidentalis leaf toothing doesn't match the description; S. sitchensis has more elongate fruit;


 * That was the only photo I saved, and the plant is in a fairly remote area in California. The Calflora website narrows the choices for that area down to californica and scopulina, though I'm not sure whether they over-limit the Sorbus species found in that specific area: In the meantime, I've requested the filename be change to "sorbus species.jpg". First Light (talk) 18:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The photo has moved now, and I can't find it. Apart from different ploidy level, reproductive behaviour, seed colour, and hairiness of the buds, S. scopulina is a bit smaller and with somewhat smaller leaves than S. californica, and less handsome. It seems that the only way to be sure which of those species this is is by whether it was found east or west of the crest of the Cascades, and perhaps you don't have that information. Nadiatalent (talk) 23:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's the new link to the photo: . The plant was well east of the Cascades, and getting close to the crest of the Sierra Nevada, on the west side of the crest. The plant was probably 6-8 ft. tall, going only by memory. First Light (talk) 01:27, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Range Map
Range map is missing species presence in the eastern San Francisco Bay Area. Speaking from personal experience in western Contra Costa County, it is well represented in the flora here. http://www.inaturalist.org/listed_taxa/56472 74.78.92.118 (talk) 05:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Illegal harvesting?
California penal code 384a was cited elsewhere as expressly forbidding gathering toyon berries on public land. In fact, many plant species are mentioned in the law, but toyon is never called out specifically. Of course, it is not legal to cut and remove plants from public land, but there's nothing here to suggest that the law was enacted to protect toyon specifically. 
 * Kortoso (talk) 20:04, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

In Oregon?
"Toyon is native to much of California, with a few plants wandering over the Oregon border. Don't get excited it was only a mile or so." 
 * Kortoso (talk) 20:23, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

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