Talk:Hibernian F.C./Archive 1

2011/12 kit
Would someone consider making a detailed image for the new kits? The basic template does not really accurately represent them, the home shirt in particular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ExcelExcel (talk • contribs) 02:18, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Finally decided no-one was doing it, so did it myself. (Home and third socks could be improved, though) Stapes7 (talk) 19:49, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

U19 squad
I would provide a reliable source for this information as it is almost certainly true, and would provide an interesting insight into the youth squad. However, the generally incompetent Hibs site does not provide a squad list. The only concrete information I have is a large number of match reports. I propose we attempt to find a source which proves the list I have to be true? ExcelExcel (talk) 19:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is that important and the lack of supporting evidence suggests it isn't. It would be worth mentioning on the season article if the under-19s keep up their good form and win either or both the league and youth cup. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Squad numbers
Has it been confirmed that Kerr and Donaldson have recieved numbers 8 & 9 for the forthcoming season?


 * Hibs squad list Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Home strip changs?
It is possible someone could create a listing of different home strip designs over the years similar to the one on the Dundee United page?


 * www.kitclassics.co.uk link added as a reference to the "colours" section. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism to this page
This is getting ridiculous. Three instances of vandalism in the last few hours. Guinnog 17:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Got it on my watchlist, G - you're not alone. However, a couple of weeks ago the Celtic page was getting vandalised once a minute, so no need to panic yet :) Camillus (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reassurance,;)Guinnog 00:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

History
Well - there's not much of it in this article! No Gordon Smith, Lawrie Reilly, Joe Baker or Pat Stanton. Will see what I can do, time permitting. Exile 19:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's better now, but the history could do with details about participation in Europe during the 60s and 70s, when Hibs played a lot of famous clubs and beat some of them, eg Napoli 5-0 with Dino Zoff in goal. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Mess
Needs some serious attendance.

You've got the Tony Mowbray era...which leads to a section on the 2004/05 season that starts "These policies were rewarded..."

What policies? Are we supposed to guess? If you're talking about Mowbray's "style" of managment etc, put it in his era section. Snowbound 01:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Oops, that was probably my fault before. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Hibernian FC
Would it be beyond the realms of fantasy to suggest that the Hibernian FC club historian edits the page?


 * Given how notoriously uncommunicative HFC are, yes.

Daily Record: ''[Rod Petrie is] intransigent, awkward, stubborn and at times, according to those with whom he does his business, almost impossible to deal with. From a media point of view the man is a nightmare given his reluctance to co-operate or even come to the phone. He runs his football club like a recluse. A modern-day prospector.''

Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Unofficial supporter links removed
I noticed several unofficial Hibernian supporter web site links have been removed. Why is this? C.J. 20:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There are only two major fan sites, hibs.net and the bounce. There are a few other (much quieter) sites. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

European Cup participation 1955/56
Sources I have read (such as 'The Official History of Aberdeen Football Club' by Jack Webster) state that Hibs were the team chosen by the Scottish FA to enter the European Cup because of their Chairman's role in supporting the adoption of the competition, not because the other teams declined an invitation. Ninja-lewis 13:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Please can you cite a date. 1956 is not accurate enough. Birmingham City played Internazionale in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup on Tuesday May 15th 1956 - is the Hibs match earlier than this? I have never seen a specific date. See http://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/European/1950s/ICFC1955-58.html. Thanks. 80.195.27.120 20:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, forgot to log in - I'm not an anonymous editor. WBluejohn 20:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK. All sorted, I'm happy now. Hibernian played Essen on 14th Sep 1955. You can cite this now :-) here is the link to the site with dates. http://www.angelfire.com/nj/sivritepe/5556/ecc.html. WBluejohn 21:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I didn't make myself clearer. I was referring to

Hibernian were the first British club to appear in European competition, in its inaugural 1955/56 season. Hibernian's participation had little to do with qualification as they accepted the invitation to European competition that was declined by the four teams that finished above them in the Scottish League. However, the official history of Aberdeen Football Club (who were Scottish Champions in 1954/1955 and thus should have been the team chosen) and their club website state that Hibs participated in the 1955/56 European Cup because of the lobbying of their chairman rather than because the teams above them in the League declined the invitation. Unless there is a source to back up the story in the article at the moment, I will change it and add a citation to the Aberdeen site. Ninja-lewis 17:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The first competition didn't stipulate that the nominations by national FAs had to be the reigning champions, so the SFA were within their rights not to select Aberdeen to participate. However, I agree that the section about clubs above Hibs in the League rejecting the chance to play is incorrect. Hibs chairman Harry Swan was the incumbent SFA President and this seems to have had a big role in the selection of Hibs for the first tournament. This Scotsman article is another supporting source. Caledonian Place 18:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Bias
This article looks very biased. Definitely looks like a lot of it was written by a hearts fan.

Agreed. There is frequent referral to the "100 years" Scottish Cup jinx, which is not something Hibs fans are proud of. =[


 * It does have to be mentioned though, it is (unfortunately) a significant part of Hibs' identity nowadays, a bit like the Curse of the Bambino or the Curse of the Billy Goat (baseball). On the bright side, when (?) Hibs eventually win the Scottish Cup, the wait will make it all the more enjoyable. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

SPL winners
I noticed that Hibernian FC won the SPL cup for the 2006 to 2007 season. But it is not updated under the logo. It say placed 4 for the 2005-2006 season.


 * There are three main competitions in Scottish football: the Scottish Premier League (a league format where 12 teams play each other multiple times), the Scottish Cup (a knockout tournament) and the Scottish League Cup (another knockout tournament). Hibs won the Scottish League Cup in 2007. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hibernian logo.gif
Image:Hibernian logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Rebus
In Ian Rankin's "Mortal Causes", it's alleged that Rebus is a Hearts supporter. I haven't come across any reference to Raith Rovers though. As for the SMG production, Rebus is not only portrayed as a Hibs supporter but as a Roman Catholic. Millbanks 08:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Rebus is of course a Hibs fan. The allegation is based on the fact that the actor who recently portrayed Rebus on British Television (Ken Stott), was ironically, a Hearts supporter. (eezyrider)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/2005/12/08/born-to-be-rebus-86908-16458882/

No, Rebus is a Hearts fan. There is a definate reference to this in 'A Good Hanging And Other Stories', where Rebus muses over his younger days when he was only bothered about 'trying to lose his virginity and supporting Hearts'. The Hibs slant only appeared in the Ken Stott productions. (AGKnight) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AGKnight (talk • contribs) 21:06, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

History & Celtic
Removed the explanation for the name of Celtic, who cares? This is a Hibs page, not one for the glorification of Celtic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by God Save the Tsar (talk • contribs) 02:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Billy McNeill
I can find no record of Billy McNeill being in temporary charce of the club. I propose his name be removed from the list of managers.Paul210 (talk) 17:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, he was in charge for one game after Jim Duffy was sacked. It's mentioned here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_19991031/ai_n13943202/ --86.167.47.188 (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The tooshort tag
Whose bright idea was it to add the tooshort tag? The intro seems just fine to me and it was apparently not discussed here, so I am removing the tag until a proper reasoning will be provided here. (Or is it just vandalism?) C.J. (talk) 01:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:LEAD. Three sentences is not an acceptable intro length for a ~40k article. The lead should serve as an adequate summary of the whole article, not just give the club's name and current position. And less of the vandalism assumptions in future, thanks. Chris Cunningham (talk) 10:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

GA reviewing...
OK, here we go. I began by finding a current football club featured article to compare with and Chelsea F.C. was the first one that came to mind...there may be better ones but it was a start. I am copyediting as I go - please revert if I accidentally change the meaning.

*To make prose interesting, avoid having 2 sentences starting the same way - at the beginning of the history section, there is 'The club was...' twice. Mix it up a bit. And then with 'Hibs established themselves'..
 * I think for structure and readability, I'd remove the stadium out of the first sentence and place at the beginning of para 2 or 3. Can then easily add seating capacity to lead as well. Home colours and maybe noting the crest deserve a mention too. The lead is a potted summary of the most salient points in the article.


 * Try to avoid repeating a word alot. Can be tricky in cases like this, but having 'Hibs' in every sentence is disconcerting. If you can substitute 'the club' or 'they' at times (without it being ambiguous) it will flow better.
 * Takeover bid by Hearts should come after First British club in Europe. Also the recent history should be a subheading of history.
 * Moved it between the Famous Five and Turnbull sections to give correct chronological order. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The whole history section is somewhat patchy. I realise it is a summary but it needs at least a couple of sentences on what happened between the periods mentioned in subheadings. eg and before the famour five, and after them too.
 * Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ensure all references come after commas or full stops at the end of sentences.
 * Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Colours section should discuss change strips. also contrast of colours with hearts. Were they Green and white since formation? (probably I'd guess)
 * Yes. Hibs fans bore Celtic fans rigid by saying that Hibs were first to wear the green. There is a picture on the Hibs official site of an early Hibs strip, which was green and white hoops! I think we could claim that under fair use? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a football shirt template which can be used instead. You could just use the Celtic template/fair use should be ok though.


 * Stadium section I think should mention why the terraces aren't there 65k to 127k is a huge drop and leaves me curious....
 * Added a bit about how the east side of the ground had a large terracing with a reference. I'll find more later, it may be possible to get a picture of the terrace for the main Easter Road article. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Good start. A wee bit more would be handy, if you can find it.

Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

*I don't think we need the bold in the Rivalry section. :Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Good. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Rangers v Queen's Park is an older Glasgow fixture, but those clubs no longer play each other regularly because Queen's Park remained amateur while the rest of the game turned professional in the late 19th Century. - erm, I think the reason is one plays about 3 divisions lower than the other, so sort of tru-ish but needs clarification.
 * Reworded to make the point that they haven't been in the same division for decades. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

*The Music section in pop culture could be converted into a single paragraph (just put the proclaimers stuff at the bottom).
 * Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Overall not bad. I'll try to do some more copyediting later as the text needs a little massaging but shoudl be an easy fix. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm not the best writer in the world so it probably does need a bit of work. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

More ideas

 * Would be good to flesh out the Paatelainen section a bit. I added a little and saw more on his article page. Should be easy as the section is still a tiny bit stubby. One or two more sentences ought to do it. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. I don't want to add too much detail because he's only been the manager for a few months; the results were good for a start but were poor towards the end of the season. Too early to make a fair assessment. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Still need a change strip in the colours bit. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Now here's a thought - I am an aussie and not hugely familiar with scottish football - are Hibs seen as an underdog at all vs Hearts - or are their honours roughly equal? Anything in culture about that? Ay other demographics at all? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Added a wee bit about that. Both have won the league four times (decades ago); Hearts have won more cups due to Hibs' notorious Scottish Cup drought; Hearts have won more derbies. As for culture, there was a book written a couple of years ago by a Hibby (Aidan Smith) called Heartfelt which has been adapted into a theatre production. The book was based on the experiment of a Hibby (Smith) going to watch Hearts games for a whole season. That's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. Demographics, some would think that Hibs would tend to draw more Catholic support and Hearts more Protestant support (like the Old Firm), but it isn't really like that at all. Who people support has more to do with where people grow up or who their parents and friends support. This is covered in the early history section, regarding the dropping of the CYMS policy. I will add a para in the introduction about Hibs' Irish background and how this has lapsed over time. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Would it be a 50/50 split between Hibs/Hearts supporters, or is one more popular as a default? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much covered by the above amendment. The clubs have similar sized grounds. Hearts' current level of attendance is slightly higher (say 15,000 to 13,000), but it's hardly notable. There's a bigger attendance gap between the Old Firm clubs but that isn't noted by anyone really. There was a survey a couple of years ago by a polling organisation (Roy Morgan) which claimed that Hearts had 400,000 fans, but this is routinely ridiculed by Hibbies. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

OK - good...erm, a sneaky vandal has snuck in some stuff - have a look at teh history. Should be right after this....Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Jambo. Yawn. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe. ok, we're over the line now

Woo hoo! I'm off to read the Alan Lugton books to try and get this up to FA! ;-) Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Towards FAC

 * OK - been thinking about this. The prose is good but I get a feeling it is a little choppy and the paras a little small in places and a new set of eyes would be good. I'll ask someone :)


 * The history should be more seamless - some more notes between 1890 and 1950. Not much but I get a sense of a vacuum now.


 * Maybe a wee bit more on why the five were so good.


 * A little bit more on the stadium


 * Oh, I just realised there is nothing on the fans, what they are called, the periodical/magazines/fanzines. Is tehre a hooligan problem with Hearts fans etc. How do they view New Kids on the Block Livingston etc.

Just some ideas anyway. I'll ask User:Dweller..Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, as Cas asked me to, I'll chip in. These are my thoughts on what you need to achieve to get to FA:


 * You need to sort out that old chestnut about referring to the club in singular or plural. This sentence stood out because it's so mangled in this respect: "Hibs are not seen today as being an Irish or Roman Catholic institution as it was in the early years of its history" Generally, I have found it works to refer to the team in the plural, but the club in the singular. So "Hibernian is a club based in..." "...but in 1823 they lost in the Sassoons Cat Food Cup Final". Remember that the team is just one element of the club (ie club may include the ground, non playing staff, shareholders, shop, supporters club etc)
 * Some non MOS titles e.g. "Foundation & Early History" should read "Foundation and early history"
 * Done. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * References need to be formatted per WP:CITE and also placed after punctuation
 * History section suffers badly from recentism. Using a rough measure 24 paragraphs (perhaps too many) take us from 1875 to 2008 - 133 years. 12 of these (ie half) deal with the last 18 years of history. It's arguable with clubs that achieve nothing for donkey's years and then come to prominence to have a slightly imbalanced history, but of Hibs 9 major honours, 7 were achieved in the early period. So you've allocated 12 parags to 7 honours and another 12 to 2. Have I convinced you? Lol.
 * You've reminded me that Hibs haven't had a really good team in about 35 years. :-( Seriously, I think what I should do is take a big axe to most of the recent history, merge it into the main history section and ask people to go to the history article, which I might have to split into two (say 1875-1975 and 1975-date). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've merged the sections and reduced the recent history down to seven paragraphs. I need to flesh out some periods of the early history to get the balance fully right. I will read the book that was published to commemorate Hibs centenary to get a bit more info on that. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Section on Easter Road is stingy. Expand.
 * Done. I will need to add a few references to that and change the ref style as per your other points. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "arguably the oldest regularly played derby match in the world." is unreferenced (as indeed is most of that section and swathes of the article in general) and, worse, reeks of OR
 * Removed that bit. It won't be the oldest derby in a couple of years time anyway when Hearts go bust (insert evil smilie). The rest of it can be referenced because London Hearts has all the games and an article about the 1878 EFA Cup tussle. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Popular culture section is too lingering on detail. Hive off most detail to daughter article and leave the essentials - it's not very encyclopedic. Think to yourself, what does someone looking for a general introduction to Hibs need to know? Cups? Yes. Rivalry with Hearts? Yes. Easter Road? Yes. Book, by a bloke not notable enough to have his own article, that's based on Wife Swap? ... hmm...
 * Revamped quite substantially. I sort of based the opening comments on the supporters section at Aberdeen F.C., which has a similar size fan base and also had a significant casual group. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * EL section needs a great scythe taken to it
 * Done. I removed Setanta and Sky links because they only tend to report stuff that is also on the BBC. The Scotsman has some extra Hibs info because the Edinburgh Evening News is in the same newspaper family. The forums and blogs can be included in a section about the fans per the suggestion above. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Hope that's a good start. It's a good basis to be working from - I'm particularly glad you've got the hang of WP:DASH which I hate passionately! Don't worry too much at this stage about copy glitches; they can be ironed out just before FAC by a third party copyeditor. --Dweller (talk) 09:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Hibernian Football Club and it's Irishness
Jmorrison230582 (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I notice in the opening paragraph, it states: "The club was founded in 1875 by Irish Catholics,[4] but this identity has been downplayed[5] to the point where support for the club is based on location rather than religion.[6]". Whilst I agree it is the case that religion no longer plays a crucial role in Hibs' support base, I would question the use of the word choice in the sentence "this [Irish] identity has been downplayed". There are a number of reasons for the decline in the expression of Irishness at Easter Road, but "downplayed" suggests a deliberate attempt by those associated with Hibernian to quell the club's Irish identity. This is a highly debateable point, and I feel most would agree that it is a hugely simplistic overview of a very complex question. Perhaps the article would be more accurate if the sentence read: "The club was founded in 1875 by Irish Catholics, but as the club and it's support developed over the decades, it is now geography rather than ethnicity or religion that is the determining factor in the club's support." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.16.97.170 (talk) 13:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The word 'downplayed' is referenced. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I think this a paraphrase by a scholar. The article clearly states that there are three camps, and to concentrate on only one aspect is a poor reading of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 04:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Recent vandalism
It has been suggested the page should be protected. I think this is unnecessary, the vandalism has probably only occurred recently due to there being an Edinburgh derby today. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:33, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Honours section
The article currently lists the following:
 * Scottish Premier League
 * Winners (4): 1903, 1948, 1951, 1952
 * Runners-up (6): 1897, 1947, 1950, 1953, 1974, 1975

....yet the SPL was not formed until the 1990s........... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have tried to clarify in a manner similar to Arsenal F.C.. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Caretaker manager
Alastair Stevenson is the caretaker manager of Hibernian and this is appropriately cited.

This should remain the case on the page for as long as this is the case. --Weirdingmodule (talk) 19:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not the case. http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20101012/kilmarnock-preview_2262950_2182012 Jmorrison230582 (talk) 22:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. --78.101.198.88 (talk) 06:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Original name of the club
It's stated in this article that the club was formed as Hibernians Football Club but there is no citation of where this can be found. My recollection is that this isn't quoted in Alan Lugtons books (though I could be wrong) and by reading the link to the official club site history section it isn't mentioned there either. The team was colloquially known, or at least referred to in the press, as the Hibernians but that was a nod more towards the percieved ethnicity of the club rather than its official name. When the club was reformed in 1891 my understanding was that the CYMS was dropped from any association with the club rather than the additional 's' being lopped of the name. Can any Hibs historians help me here please, regards Barry rimmer (talk) 11:54, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The link here to the Hibernian Historical Trust site indicates that the team were known as Hibernian. Regards Barry rimmer (talk) 03:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Having looked at my own books, I think you are correct. There was an interruption in 1891/92 (including an attempt to start a "Leith Hibernians" in Hawkhill Avenue according to Mackay), but the successful resolution was to reconstitute the existing club. I think the "Hibernians" name lingered in match reports for quite a long time. I think it is correct to point out though that the club stopped trading during 1891/92 and therefore there is a (perhaps tenuous) argument that the two periods are separate. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

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