Talk:Hieros gamos

Comment
This is based on The Da Vinci Code. Should be checked before put in the article. Apparently is some kind of ancient ritual in which men intend to reach god through a sexual climax, with a woman. According to this ritualuch with god. The cult priest perform the ritual with the choosen woman, while he is watched by the rest of participants. This ritual can traced back to ancient Egypt. (Anonymous).


 * I'm not sure I've understood, so forgive me if I misinterpret you, but what?! :S Who told you that?! The ritual has nothing to do with the Da Vinci Code whatsoever, simply because it is mentioned within that novel!?  The 'Hieros Gamos', under whatever name, predates the DVC by untold millennia!  It is not an invention of Dan Brown at all (if that is what you meant to suggest).


 * But the information you 'quote' is not quite right: it is the Priestess who performs the ritual (at times other than the major Spring fertility festival), for and with the man who wishes to seek the Goddess as her 'student', but it is under her authority and guidance -- he is merely a seeker.  For the major Spring rite specifically, the High Priestess with her chosen consort, usually the High Priest but not necessarily, enact the rite, and it is usually observed by the entire lodge, clan or coven and any invited guests, and in some traditions they are invited to take part afterwards (but do not conjure up images of a some kind of 'pornographic' orgy -- it is a very sacred ritual ~ a religious sacrament).  And it goes back beyond Ancient Egypt, though the Egyptian form is probably the most commonly known to westerners, but many others have a tradition of sacred sexuality, the Hindus and Buddhists among them.


 * Somewhere in the article it mentions that the rite is performed by the High Priestess and High Priest who are "usually in a relationship with each other anyway", but while this may sometimes be true, it is not necessarily true at all. The High Priestess (Hierodule) and High Priest (Hierophant) are elected as such for their wisdom, learning and experience, and their otherwise relationship to each other has no bearing on this election whatsoever.  The election is generally a democratic one, by those in the highest level of initiates, the inner circle or degree, though the High Priestess, who is generally seen as the sole leader of the group, has the power of veto over any man's election to the office of High Priest.  They may be husband and wife, or it's equivalent, they may also be virtual strangers, for this is a religious sacrament, not a act of casual intercourse nor seen as such, so 'relationship' is not seen as relevant in that sense.  The only important 'relationship' between them is that, for the Sacred Union, they will each 'channel' (so to speak) and embody the Goddess and God, and in enacting the divine creative fertility of life, give life to the world anew.  Glorious Goddess (talk)

It's a bit over-simplistic. I like what's already in the article. Two main problems with the quote: -Observance isn't an essential part. Some schools had everyone participating in a more physical way, others limited it to two participants. -Egypt wasn't the only place it arose, and there isn't full evidence that later manifestations in different locations didn't evolve independantly. (Anonynous).


 * Actually, this ritual is evident all over the world, from Ancient Egypt to India, from England to Tahiti, so it's quite likely they did evovle independantly ... but perhaps not -- who could say? Many esoteric traditions refer to an antediluvian, 'Golden Age' global civilisation, as seen in the enduring legend of Atl Antis, for a very well-known example, so maybe all the ancient religious rites have a common well spring.    Glorious Goddess (talk)

Wiccan
"However, it should be noted that this is not regularly practiced by Wiccans or part of Wiccan Doctrine or Dogma.[citation needed] Many wiccans would also find this practice rather taboo or digraceful.[citation needed] Rather, it is practiced by a few minor sects or individuals, similar to how some Christians might practice snake handling but it is hardly the standard Christian tradition.[citation needed]"

This should be removed as its a POV. A better statment would be to state that the practice isn't followed by all Wiccans and leave out the Doctrine and Dogma parts. SiLiCoNDragon 16:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I whole-heartedly agree with SiLiCoNDragon. I don't know a single Witch who would find the very sacrosanct Sacred Union "disgraceful"!?  What absolute bullshit!   It is not practised by only "a few minor sects" at all!  On the contray, it is practised by all the hereditary and higher degree tradtions of whose rites I am aware... all of them.  I can only assume this 'wiccan' poster is a very young student of the Craft, not even a novice, not an initiate, and certainly not a Magi/Priest/Priestess;  and, at least in my opinion, it is quite likely that she/he is a former Christian at that, to have such an erroneous view of the Craft. Glorious Goddess (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 20:38, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Source?
In some cases, such as the "Sacred Marriage" of the king of a Sumerian city-state and the High Priestess of Inanna, it served a more practical purpose: since commoners frequently took this opportunity to have sex with their own spouses, it coordinated the births of children so that they would be born in the winter, when there was more time to take care of them.

Is there a source for this? It sounds very strange to me, because 1) I don't have any children but I am told they are in some ways more trouble at 2 than as infants (Can carry infants on a Cradle board, for example), 2) Winter was probably a bad time for nutrition,  and 3) I doubt this would have a huge effect on birth rate (I don't know enormous numbers of people born near November 14). ArgentTurquoise 02:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

i did a report on this for my religion class and my teacher flipped out at me it was pretty funny

I doubt this would have a huge effect on birth rate (I don't know enormous numbers of people born near November 14)

is what that one person said, but it is a big effect.... and winter starts around december so it wood be about december 14th... which my birhtday is

While I freely admit that the Cartoon History of the Universe by Larry Gonick may not sound like the most reliable of sources, but he based it on real history books. I was just as astonished when I first read it, and so I checked out his sources, and one (I can't remember which, but it was reputable) had this in it. Lockesdonkey 15:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Da Vinci Code Movie
I'm quite sure that chapter 74 of the Da Vinci Code was completly omitted from the film, and therefore, Ron Howard has made no film that references Hieros Gamos.--Fhqwgads 15:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm no fan of the DaVinci Toad, but I'm pretty certain the hieros gamos scene was a lot nearer the start than Chapter 74!
 * Nuttyskin (talk) 13:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Incest/Inbreeding?
Is there examples of historical kings and Pharaohs marrying their own daughters or sisters in belief that this is a from of royal/divine marriage? In the sense of maintaining purity of bloodlines? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.26.82 (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a good thing we have Wikipedia, check out Ptolemaic dynasty. --Finn Bjørklid (talk) 22:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Image
Do we really need an image of incestous sexual act on this page? I mean, it's not just falling under "porn" category, but it's an incest too. I know Roman gods were almost always sister-brother marriages, but we don't need a picture of it here. 77.114.112.200 (talk) 16:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree, the above was a perfectly valid question on a page discussing the rite of Sacred Union, as is a picture of Hera and Zeus enacting it; for the answer to both is that the allegorical sister/daughter or brother/son relationship to a King/God or Queen/Goddess respectively, is exactly that ~ an allegory, and is not meant to be taken literally!  The most familiar examples of this are found in the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greco-Roman texts, both in the so-called King Lists, and in the religious texts, such as the so-called 'Book of the Dead'.  But they are allegories -- one could say, for example, that any men and women participants in a religious tradition are 'brothers' and 'sisters' to each other, the parishoner a 'child' to the Priest or Priestess, and that is exactly what this alleged 'incest' pertains to -- again, it's not to be taken literally.  Iset (Isis) was not literally the biological sister of Usir (Osiris) - they were allegorical 'siblings' in a religion, 'siblings' in an allegorical pantheonic 'family tree'.  Glorious Goddess (talk)


 * All the same, as has been alluded to on the subject of the Ptolemaic dynasty, regardless of any intended allegorical significance, brother/sister incestuous marriages including sexual intercourse did actually occur, and yeilded issue.
 * Nuttyskin (talk) 13:56, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Sacred "Prostitution"?
I also have a major problem with the use of these words in the article. I know this is a commonly held belief amongst western scholars (who are generally so hopelessly entrenched in their own socio-religious paradigm they cannot perceive things from any other perspective, so all is filtered through same), but it is neither true nor correct. The High Priestess and her attendants and noviciates were not, I repeat NOT, "prostitutes"!? This is a Roman Christian bastardisation and nothing more; and simply because it has been repeated ad nauseam does not make it factual. They were/are Priestesses, of a religion, very learned and sacred, and to see them in any other way is an absolute offence. For just part of her role were the rites of Sacred Union, and the Priestess was providing a religious service in doing so, not one of sexual-gratification as the Christian religious paradigm defines that. The modern, western mind has no popular conception of this office, but it exists and it always has, it is just not a Christian concept.

And my 'source' for all of the above? Being a Priestess of such a religion [], with the authority to speak on it's behalf. And after all that should be sufficient, for if some Archbishop wrote a section in an article on Christianity it would be accepted as authoritative. I expect the same courtesy ~ inasmuch as I expect to not have to write this again due to deletion, for this is about the third time I've put this in. Glorious Goddess (talk) 17:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Just because an archbishop is from an Abrahamic religion doesn't mean that matters in Islam are in his bailiwick. You're not a Sumerian priestess or a priestess from any ancient Mesopotamian religion.


 * I'm even less of an expert, but as far as I am aware, archaeologists believe that there was an exchange of money for sex in these instances of sacred "prostitution." Whether or not, because of this, the priestess who participated are to be slandered as "prostitutes," or if this was purely a base act for nothing more than sexual gratification, is another issue.


 * Furthermore, as you say, this is indicative of a problematic mapping of ancient, foreign concepts onto modern words. But in the case of "hieros gamos," this extends to its other translation, "sacred marriage." Just as this wasn't strictly "prostitution," often times "sacred marriage" was not at all marriage. Gamos in ancient Greek meant literally "sexual coupling" or "pair making" (whether temporary or enduring), not marriage. (It could even refer to masturbation, though I don't think that's relevant to "hieros gamos.") And in this more general sense, "hieros gamos" is accurate, as the couplings and pairings between the gods often were not "marriage" as we understand it today. Sometimes they were similar to marriage, but generally they weren't.


 * Finally, Wikipedia is not a place to do original research. If you don't like the accepted terms used, then please participate in the movements outside of Wikipedia to change them. I don't think it's appropriate to fight these battles here.Scyldscefing (talk) 17:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Scyldscefing is correct. Your personal religious practice and beliefs do not make you an expert on describing ancient religious traditions and, in fact, decreases the likelihood that you can post about this from a neutral point of view. Wikipedia is not a forum for advocacy against perceived wrongs (whether they are real or imagined).


 * Any information you provide from your personal religious study or practice is considered original research and is not allowed on Wikipedia. However, since you have so much insight into CURRENT practice, you probably can locate appropriate reliable sources upon which you can base your statements. Properly cited descriptive statements, from a neutral POV would enhance this article and are welcome. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 12:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, I most certainly can give a citation debunking "sacred prostitution", in a source now regarded as a seminal reevaluation of a topic that gathered lots of male-fantasy cruft: Mary Beard and John Henderson, "WIth This Body I Thee Worship: Sacred Prostitution in Antiquity," Gender & History 9.3 (1997) 480–503. You're unlikely to find post-1997 RS on ancient religion that don't take this article into account when revisiting the hoary topic of "sacred prostitution". Prostitution is of course different from a hieros gamos anyway, or any sexual coupling regarded as a sacred enactment. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

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