Talk:High School of Art and Design

Untitled
Why are Havoc and Prodigy not on the notable alumini list--does 'gay activist' get an entry, and being two of the most influential figures in hip-hop not? Check out the page on Mobb Deep yeah so weird lol^_^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.203.43 (talk) 12:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Founding date
In this user talk page edit states that the correct founding date is 1936, not 1938 as the cited (DOE) source indicates. Is there another source that gives the 1936 date? Note that no one editor is "in charge" of this or any other article as per our policy on article ownership. DES (talk) 04:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have found and added two refs for the 1936 date. DES (talk) 08:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

-

Reply from Yvonne:  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yvonnefitz (talk • contribs) 05:31, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

See, here's the thing: Mira Tweti got that information from ME, and I got it from my yearbook. Last night I stayed up late, curious, looking for what I could find that you might find acceptable. But much of it is based on circumstantial information -- if that's the correct term. Here's what I have (in the order I found it, not the order of importance):

1. Press release from 2005: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/11/prweb471703.htm

2. A page from my yearbook published on our website (3rd paragraph from the top right): http://www.tads39.fotki.com/yearbooks/1960_sia_yearbook/60page013.html

3. Page 121 in a 1937 book (a report by the Superintendent of Schools) where it says George K. Gombarts is the Acting Principal of the school, under a headline "A New School Is Born" -- most likely referring to the school already in existence:

Damn! I abbreviated the horribly long link (using hootsuite) and was told: "Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist." So, now I'm going to have to include the whole horribly long link!

http://books.google.com/books?id=WWZLAAAAYAAJ&q=George+K.+Gombarts+Acting+principal,+school+of+industrial+art&dq=George+K.+Gombarts+Acting+principal,+school+of+industrial+art&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a2PKUumQAcjMsATFq4DwDA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA

4. Lastly, a pdf of a 1935 New York Sun article mentioning (in the upper left) that George K. Gombarts, principal of an evening school called the School of Industrial Art, will become principal of a full-time day [time] school called "the Central School of  Applied and Industrial Art". (see discussion in my yearbook about "central schools")

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper 18/New York NY Sun/New York NY Sun 1935/New York NY Sun 1935 - 0153.pdf

I think this pretty much covers it. I believe someone typing the information in the DOE pamphlet made a mistake, turning November 8, 1936 into November 1938.

I'll get back to the other subjects in question another time, as I'm very short of time these days. Thanks for your help. Yvonnefitz (talk) 02:50, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

The page line spacing got messed up after it got saved. I hope my adding space clears that up. Yvonnefitz (talk) 02:54, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

The link to the pdf got messed up the 2nd time I save this page -- WHY??? I've reposted it. Yvonnefitz (talk) 02:58, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Why does this pdf link keep getting changed on this page? It works fine otherwise: http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper 18/New York NY Sun/New York NY Sun 1935/New York NY Sun 1935 - 0153.pdf

This is my last attempt! Yvonnefitz (talk) 03:01, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much,, for your comments and information. We do indeed know that errors happen in sources, and at a "reliable" source may well include serious inaccuracies. But as a tertiary source, Wikipedia must follow what primary and especially secondary sources say. People are often frustrated when they know some piece of history, but have no published documentation and want to include it in a Wikipedia article. The only response is to suggest that they write it up and publish it in some other venue that includes editorial control, so that the information will not be lost and Wikipedia can then cite it. I will respond to your points in order, as best as I can. DES (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I had already found and cited the 2006 press release (which seems to cite you as a contact person if not as the source), and also a related 2004 release, and they are now in the article.
 * The yearbook page I think we can cite also. Having the cover as well as the specific page should be sufficient.
 * The 1937 report would be citable, but I am not sure if enough will be visible in the Google preview. It might require someone to go to a library and find the actual report. But the other sources should be enough even without that. I am sorry that you had a problem with the hootsuite link -- I can only assume that people have used it for spam or other abusive purposes in the past, so that the site has been placed on the blacklist. I could look into it, but it doesn't seem important enough just now to spend the time.
 * The NY Sun article should be useful.
 * Thank you again for all your work on this page, and for trying to understand and deal with Wikipedia's somewhat complex and in places arcane standards and practices. (They generally have good reasons behind them, but can be quite daunting for people not used to them. We do try to improve them over time.) I hope to be helpful with this page as well as generally on Wikipedia. DES (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Reply from Yvonne: Thank you for your comments, DES. I did notice, yesterday [1/6/13], the citations you included. I plan to go back to the page at some point, when I have more time, and make a few alterations. I had long wanted to set up the History section, but was overwhelmed with other Alumni Association tasks (I still am). So, thank you for getting that started. Most likely, some of the old NY Sun and NY Post newspaper articles mentioning George K. Gombarts (the school's first principal) will be used there.

Just one question on the strange address posted under the school's photo, and I added a separate topic on that, below. How do we remove the 1500 James Ave North wrong address? (There seem to be additional codes on the edit page and I'm afraid of removing more than I should.)

Oh, and regarding hootsuite link abbreviations, if there's a problem with using them what about bitly or goo.gl? And did you want a link to that 1960 yearbook cover? Yvonnefitz (talk) 16:55, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Exact date
The exact date of Nov 8 is provided on page 16 of the yearbook linked to above, and now cited in the article. DES (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2014 (UTC) Reply from Yvonne: Thank you! Yvonnefitz (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Additional comments
Thank you for rewriting the page and removing the ugly requests for citations by the previous editor (one on the page would have been enough to get the message across; they were distracting eyesores). I corrected the date the school moved to 1075 Second Avenue. Mira Tweti got it wrong, but it's correct in the John B. Kenny obit. (See how mistakes are made and published?).

Our old school buildings (on E. 51st and E. 79th Streets) closed in June of 1960. The "new" building had been undergoing construction for a few years and was ready for the transfer of students in Sept. 1960. (Where would the students have gone for a year, if it had been 1961?)

However, the building at 257 West 40th Street was not a dilapidated warehouse; it was the site of an adult WPA school. I guess Mira, the writer, took some artistic liberty. I may do a few tweaks at some point. And also address the other issues, but the page looks really nice, once again. Thank you! Yvonnefitz (talk) 03:23, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, . I have corrected the address, which I suspect was left in from the page where another editor copied in the infobox skeleton. I have also corrected the "dilapidated warehouse" statement, based on the yearbook story. I included a citation link to that story, which will allow anyone who follows it to navigate to the cover. I haven't had time to incorporate the Sun article nor all the info from the yearbook page yet. DES (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2014 (UTC) Reply from Yvonne: Thank you! Yvonnefitz (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Minneapolis address under school photo
How did 1500 James Ave North get placed under the photo? I noticed the edit codes say:


 * location =
 * address         = 1500 James Ave North
 * city            = Minneapolis
 * state           = Minnesota
 * country         = USA

Yvonnefitz (talk) 05:53, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have corrected this, . I suspect that it was in the article from which the infobox skeleton was copied by another editor. DES (talk) 17:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC) Reply from Yvonne: Thank you! Yvonnefitz (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Section titles
The section titles 'Notable alumni' and 'Notable faculty' are standard in Wikipedia articles. (They are not considerd POV or biased.) They indicate that such lists are limited to individuals who are "Notable". For list purposes this normally means that an individual will have a separate biographical article on Wikipedia, or else would qualify to have one as per WP:GNG, WP:BIO, or one of the specialized notability guidelines. In the latter case a refernce cition should be provided. In the former case a link to the article is sufficient of the article mentions the list criterion, in this case ttandance at the school or membership on the faculty. If it doesn't a citation should be provided. Even when a link to an article is sufficient and no citaiton is required, one may be provided in case the mention is later deleted from the article. DES (talk) 04:55, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Invalid link
The External links section includes a link to http://www.artalumni.com/ listed as "High School of Art and Design Alumni Association". However tht link does not curently appear to go to such a site, insted it goes to "American Community Partners" wich seems to be a site for medical professionals in California. I have commented the link out. Can anyomne find the correct link for this? It looks from a Google search as if http://www.artdesignalumni.com/ might be corredct, can anyone confirm? DES (talk) 05:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Reply from Yvonne: Sorry about the invalid link. Our original website, artalumni.com had to change its domain name (long story) and it became artdesignalumni.com on April 1, 2011. However, I am almost certain I incorporated it into the school's page sometime after that. It would be very unlike me not to follow up on that for almost 3 years! I'm going to check the page's edit history to see if anyone messed with that. (We had someone, a former short-term webmaster, sabotage our website in June of 2012. And he tried to blame someone else for it. And this is one of our alumni!!!) Yvonnefitz (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed. DES (talk) 04:31, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Good high school article
An example of a good high school article is North Community High School and edits to High School of Art and Design should be to move the High School of Art and Design article towards something like North Community High School. -- Jreferee (talk) 15:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC) The above copied here from User talk:Yvonnefitz. DES (talk) 16:22, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Initial faculty
The yearbook articles now cited seem to imply that "four art teachers began" in the History section is not quite correct. I now think that there was a committee of 4 who proposed the idea of the school, but there were 8 teachers when the school opened, with soem but not all of the committee members being among those 8. The Yearbook names at least 3 of the committee members, although not all with full names. Can we confirm this, and should those names be included here? DES (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm all for including the names. I don't think there's anything unusual about having four teachers found the school and then hiring four others. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If I am reading the yearbook articles correctly, 2 of the initial committee of 4 were among the initial faculty of 8, and a 3rd later became Principal (the 2nd principal I think). The fourth member of the initial committee does not seem ever to have become a faculty member. DES (talk) 03:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * BTW, I meant to compliment you on the great research you did in finding that yearbook &mdash; it's a wealth of information. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:39, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * You are complimenting the wrong person, the yearbook link was provided by, above on this talk page. I merely read the entry and incorporated facts from it into the Wikipedia article. She also provided additional links which I have viewed but not attempted to incorporate as yet. DES (talk) 03:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Reply from Yvonne: I'll get into this later. I'm going to re-read my yearbook. We had someone do a condensed version of the whole founding saga on our original website, but a year or so ago someone cut it all down and did a horrible editing job. The odd thing is, there apparently was an evening art school, called the School of Industrial Art, that was run by George K. Gombarts. It's possible the idea of the 4 original teachers coincided with Gombarts' wanting to have a day-time school. Gobarts was made SIA's principal, then John B. Kenny took over. And was the school's principal for about 24 years. Unfortunately, one of the past teachers, who knew Kenny and his wife, and so many other people, is herself now deceased. Kenny does have a daughter, Pamela Kenny, whom I'm in touch with but she told me a few months ago that a lot of the vintage information she had was lost when she lost her apartment in NY. (She is now in San Antonio, TX.) I'm going to start looking for usable photos of the old buildings -- with the building on East 56th Street there have been 5 altogether. We also need one of the newest building (and of course I want to make sure there are no copyright issues.) Yvonnefitz (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * On photos, as you may be aware, copyright for photographs can be tricky, By default, the photographer holds copyright, unless it is made as a "work made for hire" as a consultant or as part of a job, in which case the employer holds the copyright. Wikipedia requires explicit release under a free license (one that permits unlimited reuse and modification by anyone for any purpose) except for rather limited cases in which Fair use photos are accepted. Photos of old buildings which no longer exist, at least not in the pictured state, and which have little or no commercial value might qualify, but there are several hoops to jump through. If the original photographers agree (in writing) to release their photos, it would be easier. But there is much we can do with the info already provided. Photos of the buildings as they are now can of course be taken and released by anyone who chooses to. DES (talk) 04:28, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Notable alumni
One of our alumni just pointed out that a rapper named Fabolous was added to our list of notables (grad year 1996). That's news to us! I just checked the Internet and found an article that says he attended or graduated from Boys and Girls High School not Art & Design: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2010/10/qa_tanya_morgan.php I am removing him from the list. I'd like to get back to the issue of Notable alumni one of these days but am still overwhelmed with fundraising event volunteer work, especially today (Sunday, a day I should be tending to personal needs) Yvonnefitz (talk) 19:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * (and other editors), I think for this article alumni are notable enough if they have articles on Wikipedia. If those articles mention that the person graduated from High School of Art and Design, that should be enough if the matter is not challenged, but it would not hurt to cite in this article a source that says that the person graduated from High School of Art and Design. If sources are cited in the article about the person to establish notability there, I don't see that such sources need be re-cited in this article. If someone is alleged to be notable but does not (yet) have an article, either one can be created, or we can cite here sources that confirm that person's notability. DES (talk) 19:46, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * All good and fair points. The current thinking, as I've read on the talk page of List of African-American firsts, is that we're now starting to footnote even blue-linked names, though this isn't a hard-and-fast rule. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:06, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Reply from Yvonne: The current, and frequent, issue is people adding names onto the list who are not truly notable or -- in this case -- graduated from another high school. Sometimes there are also prank names added. We had a discussion about this with some of our alumni on Facebook on Sunday. Names need to be vetted before they can be added to the list. And not added by people we don't know. (More on who is considered "notable" in future commentary.) Yvonnefitz (talk) 06:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I can see where that is a problem, but as per our policy on article ownership no article may have a single person (or limited group of people) as gatekeeper or vetter or sole authorized poster. Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" and that applies to this article. Facebook discussions are not relevant to the matter, and, as a core policy, it cannot be modified by local discussion on this page either. DES (talk) 12:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Reply from Yvonne: My point was that just because a group of alumni, from a particular year or decade, feel they're not being represented (and mentioned this on our alumni page on Facebook) doesn't mean they can just start adding alumni they know. Sure, anyone can add anyone they want to any page. We do have a Board of Directors, who receive information on alumni we may have not previously known about. However, prank additions need to be removed. And there have been some of those. We have also had people who have added their own names onto the list who weren't notable enough and/or had no Wikipedia pages of their own. So they were removed. Yvonnefitz (talk) 04:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Concur with Yvonnefitz in general, although I think she needs to be careful saying things that can be taken two ways, such as: "Names need to be vetted before they can be added to the list" (vetted by Wikipedia editors, I presume she means, not her alumni group); and "More on who is considered 'notable' in future commentary" (as we all comment freely here on this talk page). Here and in many school articles, people add themselves or someone non-notable they're a fan of or other such inappropriate "notable alumni." It's good to keep a watch over these things. (I would say that "And not added by people we don't know" does sound OWNy &mdash; appropriate content can be added by anyone on Wikipedia.) --Tenebrae (talk) 18:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Art & Design's New Principal
I just visited the school's Wikipedia page earlier today (to see how far back my original posts went) and noticed there was some recent editing regarding the school's new principal. No idea who changed the name, from Frances DeSanctis to Manuel Ureña, but the person was correct. Ms. DeSanctis left her position, to my surprise (and probably others) and was replaced by Mr. Ureña. (Please include the ~ accent over the lowercase n.)

This administrative change may have occurred in February, but I am not sure (I can ask the school's AP of Art). However, the proof of the change can be found on both the Dept of Ed's portal site for our school and our school's own website. He is considered "Interim Acting" (IA) Principal at this point. Here are the links:

Welcome - Art and Design High School - M630 - New York City Department of Education http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/02/M630/default.htm

Principal Announcements — HIGH SCHOOL OF ART & DESIGN http://www.artanddesignhs.com/principal-announcements/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yvonnefitz (talk • contribs) 18:28, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * It's up to each editor to cite (footnote) whatever information they put into Wikipedia. Since you seem to have the links here, just add them there. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:50, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply from Yvonne: Thanks, but I don't recall there being citations following the name[s] of the principals in the past. I have no idea who changed Francis DeSanctis to Manuel Ureña, but he is indeed the current principal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yvonnefitz (talk • contribs) 19:54, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Since there were no citations for any principal's name, we can't include these claims until they can be RS cited. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply from Yvonne: What does "RS cited" mean? As I mentioned previously, Manuel Ureña is listed as the current principal on both the Dept of Ed website and the school's website (links were included in my previous comments about this). But here's the latest version of the High School of Art and Design website: http://www.artanddesignhs.com/

Well, that's basically RS (reliable-source) citing. Now it just needs to go in the article. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:08, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

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Missing Citations (reply from Yvonne)
Here's one for '52 alumnus, Sam Scali: http://adcglobal.org/hall-of-fame/sam-scali/ (I've been off this page for a long time and forgot the wiki codes.) Perhaps someone can add it next to his name and I can see what the codes are, to use for other missing citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yvonnefitz (talk • contribs) 19:45, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Citation Question re. Books
I've just added two citations in this evening (EST)-- one for '51 alumnus Leo Dillon and one for '52 alumnus Sam Scali. Going down the line, where there it said citations were needed, I came across '56 alumnus John Johnson. Seems none of his biographic info on any sites about his career mention his high school. (Of course, I could dig up his photo from his yearbook.) I did recall reading the memoir he wrote some years ago, and was certain the school was mentioned there. I went to Amazon.com and was able to do a search for "Industrial Art". The school's name came up on 3 pages. How does this get a citation??? The book's name is "ONLY SON: A Memoir" by John Johnson, Author, Jeff Coplon, With with Jeff Coplon. The pages the school's name appears are 104, 105 and 110.

By the way, it seems no one answered my question about my recent attempts at citations not working 100% properly. So, I decided to copy the code format from an existing one, seemed to work for Leo Dillon and Sam Scali. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yvonnefitz (talk • contribs) 02:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

PS: What the heck is the below??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yvonnefitz (talk • contribs) 02:28, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

building picture
the picture of the high school is wrong and shows the old high school building across the street that was used before they mooved. next Monday (28th feb 2022) when school starts back up ill try and remember to take a picture of the correct building and edit the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osty2018 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 18 February 2022 (UTC)