Talk:High Speed 2

Remediation
If there was a need for HS2 to provide greater capacity, those interested in it will surely be interested in alternative ways of remedying the deficiencies that HS2 was originally intended to provide. I accept that Andy Burnham's and Andy Street's January meeting with Government was not about reviving high speed connections, but it clearly included increasing capacity between Handsacre Junction and the start of Northern Powerhouse Rail. Perhaps this article deserves a section about proposals to remedy the capacity deficiencies that the amputated limbs were designed to meet. TedColes (talk) 12:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The Burnham and Street initiative is clearly zero to do with the HS2 250mph track being built by HS2 Ltd, which ends at Handsacre. It is just a proposal, a concept at best. The route has not been determined which would involve upgrading/extending the WCML.
 * This is a factual encyclopedia not a rail gossip forum. Those forums exist for that sort of talk. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 13:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, not gossip, only factual reporting.--TedColes (talk) 14:05, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It is ZERO to do with HS2. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 15:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps peripheral, but not zero. HS2 was never solely about speed – the capacity issue was the real, if less politically attractive reason. --TedColes (talk) 16:54, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ZERO! HS2 is DEAD and has been for three months. Confirmed by the opposition leader. Take it to the WCML article where it belongs. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 17:10, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Please do not shout.--TedColes (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Seems legitimate, interesting and relevant to the article. We might want to review where it sits in the article structure, but it's useful to include this information. Cnbrb (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree.  2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829  is clearly pressed that the new proposal for the rest of HS2 is to be paid by private investment which is emphasised by the aggressive diatribes they have posted on the page. The new proposal for the rest of HS2 to Manchester to be paid by private investment, which it should be emphasised, Andy Burnham has said will be a brand new high speed rail line (which there is already Parliamentary approval under the High Speed Rail (West Midlands-Crewe) Act 2021) if it goes ahead. It is not speculation or gossip, it is fact. The exact plans are subject to the review and that is why the part of the Article is entitulated "review" and not "the plan going forward" as the exact route of the review could change from that already approved by the HSR (WMC) Act 2021. The review should therefore remain on the Article and the Article can be modified once the review has been published by the Mayors which looks promising. TheBishopAndHolyPrince (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It is NOT HS2. 137.220.74.146 (talk) 03:00, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Not legitimate at all. It should be in the WCML article. A sentence her with a link to is all that is needed. Are you clinging onto a forlorn hope HS2 is coming back? Forget it. It is not. East was canned over 2 years ago and the west over three months ago. 137.220.74.146 (talk) 03:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Not HS2. Burnham and Street emphatically even say it is not HS2 and that they are not reviving HS2. It will be a section of the WCML. That is obvious. If anyone cannot see that they should not be editing. It is is an factual encyclopedia, not a outlet for speculation about other lines. There are dedicated rail forums for that. 137.220.74.146 (talk) 02:58, 8 February 2024 (UTC)


 * It literally is fact and you're so pressed it's going ahead, it's completely laughable. It remains relevant to the Article and it will remain on the Article. Even if it is not "HS2" by name it will be high speed rail on the same or very similar route. It is consequently relevant. No further comment is needed. TheBishopAndHolyPrince (talk) 08:04, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Recent emphasis of services in lead
Hi, been a bit confused, since it was added a few months ago following the cut of the northern leg, but the lead of this article now gives a lot of attention that HS2 is "not just a railway line but also a wider network of services". Which seems off, considering as most of the article (incl. infobox) is on the railway line, even specifically stating "HS2" wouldn't extend to Scotland in a section, so bit contradictory. The company themselves only describes HS2 to be the new line, and would be comparable to describe all Eurostar services to be High Speed 1 services? In the end, AFAIAA, the services would be part the operator of the West Coast Partnership, that merely use the line.  Dank Jae  22:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right, the article focus should really be about the construction of a new line. There was (to put it mildly) some discussion about this a while ago, and to my mind, some of the material about services is there more to placate a vociferous editor than to provide encyclopaedic information. In the end, while there will be HS services in the future, the detail is only conjectural, and the bulk of this article discusses the physical line being built - or what's left of it at any rate.Cnbrb (talk) 01:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The obvious approach to take is have this article about infrastructure and construction thereof, and another article about services. But that editor was insistent that "HS2 will go to Liverpool" and found citations in support. Sloppy sources lead to sloppy articles. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

And round and round we go
Yet another edit war has broken out between those of us who prefer "High Speed 2 (HS2) is a high-speed railway line which is under construction in England. The same name is used for services which are planned to run on the line and beyond." versus those who prefer "High Speed 2 (HS2) is a planned high-speed railway line and network of passenger train services in Great Britain." Is there any way we can reconcile these view points? AFAICS, the first version is in line with all the media analysis; the second is in line with political position. IMO, the second position was defensible when it was slated to go to Manchester and Leeds, it stretched credulity when Leeds was axed but now, when it only goes to Birmingham (apart from a spur to the WCML where HS2 trains are too long for the platforms and too slow for the track), it is just silly. , you keep reinstating the second version but you appear to be in a minority of one. Can you provide a justification that cites any competent sources later than last October? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The two options convey essentially the same information, but the original wording is more succinct and so I don't see a need to change it. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I prefer option 2. We can't hide from the fact that HS2 has been curtailed, cut back, and redrawn, and the remit has been altered over and over again. To me, that means we must use "planned". Were it today the same scheme as in 2020, we could use the first option. It isn't, so we shouldn't. doktorb wordsdeeds 21:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Prefer option 1, although as said before I wonder why we need to mention services at all, especially in the first sentence(s), unless it’s part of a recent initiative to “revamp” HS2 by the Government to justify it being shrunk, making it bigger than it is. Most of this article is not on the services and services are even more WP:CRYSTAL than physical infrastructure under construction. Most sources won’t say HS2 goes to Scotland, even if the other lead argued it would.  Dank Jae  12:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Plus where is the source that states HS2 is a network of services? “HS2 services” can be descriptive meaning services using HS2, the line, but not considered HS2 itself.  Dank Jae  13:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Most recent sources won't even say that HS2 will go to Manchester, only that some HS2 trains will go there, will be slower than Pendolinos, will worsen congestion at Crewe, and won't fit the platforms if they get there. Total crystal ball meltdown. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 14:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I have caught up on your comments: it should be noted about the ongoing review etc by the Mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands and the conclusion of that review. I have included that in the section about the review, but the review has said it will be producing its report in the Summer with the exact details. The review as a summary said a brand new line will be built by private investment on the same line as HS2 from Birmingham to Manchester. A map has been produced but I have not included this yet. I would assume to leave it as this until the entire report has been produced in the Summer because of the exact details yet to be fully disclosed. If this review confirms this I would propose that the article be amended to say that it is a HSR line from London to Manchester under construction as it currently does in option 1. It is a HSR line but it is under construction. That overtakes the fact of it previously being planned as the plan is being constructed. Is this ok? UnicornSherbert (talk) 20:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We can say that it "is under construction" when the earthmovers move in. Before that, see WP: CRYSTAL. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I know that, I am saying I agree that the introduction should remain as it is, and then wait for the report of the review to come and then put the report's findings in? Other than that, to include what the Mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands have said in relation to the revived scheme until the report comes I would assume is factual. The name of the entire project could change given the circumstances surrounding the review etc, but until then the name too should remain the same. Thanks :) UnicornSherbert (talk) 20:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The Manchester bit is only at the report-writing stage so for now I moved it out of the 1st para of the intro, which was long enough already. -- Wire723 (talk) 08:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It may be at "report-writing stage" but both Mayors have confirmed the plan, which they have published a map, which can be seen from the other sources on the article about this matter. It has enough notability to publish this, and it is relevant to the ongoing review, which has been part of the introduction since the review was announced months ago. It should therefore be restored to include this information in the introduction so people are aware of anticipated change which is further explained down the article UnicornSherbert (talk) 10:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The plan can be mentioned in the intro but the 1st paragraph should describe HS2 as currently constituted. The plan is unfunded and lacks government approval. -- Wire723 (talk) 08:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The railway is authorised by the High Speed Rail (West Midlands - Crewe) Act 2021. It therefore has approval notwithstanding being announced to be cancelled by Rishi Sunak. Indeed, the High Speed Rail (Crewe - Manchester) Bill has been carried over to this session after that supposed cancellation. It would follow therefore that the project remains to be approved formally and that approval has not formally been withdrawn, which means it is legally still approved. The Mayors have even said that their plan is for a new line on what HS2 Phase 2 would have been but this is paid by private investment (and they have produced a map to assist with this). This should therefore remain on the introduction as well the main substance of the review as it has been set out. UnicornSherbert (talk) 11:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Stating the obvious a bit, but if it is an Act, then it is law. If it is a Bill, then it is not law. (Also, afik, bills not passed in the same parliamentary session are lost. Do you have a citation for "carried over"?) --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It really goes to underline the fact that you do not understand the procedure of Parliament if you require to have a carry-over explained to you. It means the Bill does not fall, and can only be made by a Minister of the Crown . This speaks to the Government's intentions particularly where HS2 Phase 2 is announced to be cancelled by the Government in October 2023 but no steps have been taken to withdraw its legal authorisation, and the Bill to authorise Phase 2b is carried over in November 2023. No more really needs to be said. UnicornSherbert (talk) 14:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please WP:assume good faith. I said "afik" (as far as I know). The Carry-over article explains Ordinarily a bill that does not receive royal assent by the end of the parliamentary session fails; to become an Act, it must be re-introduced in the following session. and includes multiple cases where that is true. A motion to carry-over is clearly the exception to a general rule. Either way, it is a bill, not a law. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:05, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I will also point out, it is a Hybrid Bill. This means that special rules apply in terms of its Parliamentary passage. This means it can be carried-over to a new Parliament and not just a new Session. This has happened in many Acts for new railways recently. I do however note your comments. I am sure it will be more apparent in the Summer when the report is released by the Mayors as to the way forward. UnicornSherbert (talk) 17:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Network of services + the mayors' scheme
Can we drop the 'network' aspect of HS2 from the lead and elsewhere? It seems to have been abandoned by the HS2 website, at least. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I would see no problem with this, the name of the exact passenger services etc is unknown until they actually enter operation. I would however, as set out above, wish to retain the ongoing review in the lead as summary but then its full content further in the body as present. It remains relevant. The report yet to come by the Mayors in Summer 2024 should shine further light on the true extent but the provisional report basically says Phase 2 will be paid for by private investment from Handsacre to Manchester Airport to then join NPR which will then be paid for by public investment. UnicornSherbert (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I've removed the references to the network from the lead; they can be reinstated if other editors disagree.
 * I don't think an ongoing review or provisional report are significant enough to mention in the lead. If they lead to concrete plans to complete parts of phase 2 then that can be included in the lead, but as it stands we'd be giving undue significance to plans which may not come to fruition. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * They have come to fruition because the Mayors have reported on this and have outlined the plans. They have even provided a map, which arguably should be included into the article for HS2. This is notwithstanding that they have stated they intend to give the exact details in the Summer. The review should therefore be reinstated. UnicornSherbert (talk) 22:18, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think a map and good intentions are enough to make the plans firm enough to include in the lead, sorry. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Support removing services, as mentioned above, I doubted where it came from.
 * Concerning private developments, that would depend if it is described as part of HS2, should it be developed. If it isn't, then it shouldn't be here (aside a minor link to another article) even if it covered the same route.  Dank Jae  08:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Andy Burnham, addressing the board of Transport for the North, insisted that this proposal is not an attempt to revive HS2, saying "This is the son or daughter of HS2. It's not the same thing." --TedColes (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This has already all been discussed above. In any event, the Act for Phase 2a refers to such as HS2 and so does the Phase 2b Bill. This would not change. Andy Street also told the media that it is essentially the same route and how therefore could someone logically try to describe it as not HS2? HS2 is the route and it remains relevant. It is highly unlikely that the private investment would simply drop out of the consortium. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that, as Andy Burnham also told media, this part of the HS2 route would be privately financed. It really is as simple as that. UnicornSherbert (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JMF @Wire723 you both have contributed above. Are you able to also join the conversation here? UnicornSherbert (talk) 12:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * WP: CRYSTAL applies. As of today, it is still a wish list. When contracts have been placed, we can say what is confidently expected to happen. Not before. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, it should be noted the government have still be buying land and buildings etc along the Phase 2 route (i.e. the part which the Mayors are going to be paying for privately) notwithstanding that route has been cancelled by the government. UnicornSherbert (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems unlikely that the two Andys' scheme would be able to build track to the same standard that is needed for high speed running.--TedColes (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean that would be stupid to believe because HS2 trains are unable to drive on conventional track which means it must be high speed rail to Manchester. UnicornSherbert (talk) 19:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * They can but they can't go as fast as Pendolinos, they are too long for the platforms and they won't fit into Manchester station as is. But apart from that, there's:s no problem. Well, other than the lack of budget or any means to raise it, obviously.
 * But when the mist clears in the crystal ball, all that will be solved. Right now though, we must stick to what is real. Ambitions can and should certainly be described but we cannot imply that they have any more status than that. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Says TGV finance model will be adopted... We will see what materialises but it has been made clear it would not be possible to run HS2 trains all the way to Manchester on the WCML mainly for safety reasons. and the government would not let them slow down the already most congested railway in the UK. There surely must be more to come. UnicornSherbert (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is beginning to drift into speculation and WP:NOTFORUM territory, so best we draw a line under it at this stage. We can report as fact that "very high speed" track is funded, contracted and under construction between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Curzon St. Everything else is unfunded aspiration and may only be reported as such unless and until that status changes. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Crossed out text
Why is a lot of text crossed out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:4b00:bb18:a600:e738:4c0d:38f4:6829 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)


 * If you're talking about the talk post above, see the user's history and WP:BE and WP:DENY. Also, I've noticed that you've made a few talk posts recently, please sign your talk posts and replies with four tildes at the end of each comment. It will produce a signature like this: Fork99 (talk) 02:18, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

King's speech 17/7/24
I reverted an IP edit that inferred far too much from the limited information we have to date. The Guardian merely says "High-speed rail (Crewe to Manchester) bill: An acknowledgement in law that Labour will not resurrect the Birmingham to Manchester leg of HS2, instead focusing on east to west links." That's it. Nothing more. We have to wait for the first reading. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Modern Railways says this:
 * Also in the King’s Speech was a commitment to repurpose the previous Conservative Government’s High Speed Rail (Crewe to Manchester) Bill to improve connectivity in the north of England. The Bill includes powers for infrastructure in Manchester and the surrounding area, including at Manchester Piccadilly and Airport stations, and the Government says carrying it over ‘demonstrates commitment to making progress on rail connectivity whilst we work with local leaders on improved overall strategy.’
 * It does not mention HS2, so phase 2 of HS2 remains canncelled. The WCML, ECML, MML are all high speed lines, falling into the definition. The bill says 'High Sped Rail', also mentions infrastructure relating to rail. Infrastructure can be 125mph High Speed Rail, or anything above, but not the HS2 project. Very obvious. 143.58.172.236 (talk) 10:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It does not say that the northern phase has been reactivated. This is WP:SYNTHESIS. Please wait until something clearer emerges. Cnbrb (talk) 11:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Fully agree, thank you. 10mmsocket (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly! It does not say the northern phase of HS2 has been reactivated whatsoever. 143.58.246.185 (talk) 22:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC)