Talk:Highland and Island Emigration Society

Comments on Copy Edited Version
In the Rules section, the following sentence now needs a citation:

"The last rule which required landlords to partially fund the emigration of their tenants was a controversial one."

This is because the following text was removed which provided the support for the above statement:

Quoting Richards:

the operations of the ... Society were clouded by its allegiance with landlords wanting to divest themselves of small tenantry who were no longer economic. [19]

Quoting Prebble:

Helped by the Highland Emigration Society and by the Commissioners for emigration - the one finding the money and the other the ships - the lairds of the Isles were now clearing their estates with sickening haste. [20]

Why not just add the references if you don't want the explicit quotes? Camerojo (talk) 23:40, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Good point! I've added them back. I removed the quotes originally because they kind of confused me. I expected the quotes to represent the 2 sides of the controversy but they don't, at least not obviously. I think that the quotes need a little explanation, rather than just having them sit out there. That was really my only objection with those quotes. If they are better integrated into the text, I think they could/should be put back. I just wasn't comfortable doing it myself since I don't have the sources.


 * I have put the quotes back in, changing the first sentence to talk about "criticism" rather than "controversy". Hopefully that leads better into the quotes. Camerojo (talk) 22:21, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

The Success of the Society
In the original version there was the following quote on the success of the society: "The HIES succeeded in dispensing thousands of impoverished Highlanders abroad by knitting together colonial needs, landlord eviction, public charity and Highland kinship." It was successful in many ways and I think that should be acknowledged. My own ancestors came out with the society. Like many others, they were escaping dire circumstances at home and took advantage of the new opportunity provided to them, eventually thriving in their new land. (In one generation, my grandfather returned to the UK to do a post graduate degree at Cambridge University!) I would argue for reinstating that quote. What was the rationale for removing it? Camerojo (talk) 22:39, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The 'End of the Society' section was mostly a string of quotes with very little explanatory text. In trying to fix that, I probably removed more than I ought. That quote would go very nicely at the end. I would begin by a sentence or two about the success of the society in the long term, and reinforce it with the quote - just a suggestion. Leschnei (talk) 15:23, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I worked hard to choose quotes that would run together making a comprehensible narrative - but clearly failed! My view was that a professional historian's words would be better than my amateurish paraphrasing. Personally I would rather see original quotations from reputable sources rather trust the paraphrasing of an anonymous Wikipedian. But obviously others do not share my view. I have attempted to follow your advice and have reinstated the quote. Camerojo (talk) 05:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

New Sources from Devine
Thanks User:ThoughtIdRetired for contributing the references from Devine which I was not aware of. I have ordered copies and look forward to reading them. Camerojo (talk) 21:40, 11 January 2019 (UTC)


 * One thing you may find if you are looking at the several works by Devine is that he demolishes Prebble as a reliable source on this sort of subject. (You'll find that in Devine, T. M. The Scottish Clearances: A History of the Dispossessed, 1600-1900 (pp 4-11). Penguin Books Ltd.) Another thing relevant to this article is the recognition of Devine's study of landlord behaviour during the Highland Potato Famine (Devine: The Great Highland Famine, 1995), as acknowledged by James Hunter in the 2010 edition of his The Making of the Crofting Community. Hunter deals with this in the preface to the new edition, but frustratingly does not alter the text of the main part of the book, which generally labels the landlords as uncaring despots, a view which Devine is able to substantially refute based on detailed research.
 * I think one can feel relaxed about using Devine as a source when the review of Clanship to Crofters' War in Scottish Economic & Social History, Volume 15 Issue 1, Page 116-118, ISSN 0269-5030 Available Online Sep 2010 (https://doi.org/10.3366/sesh.1995.15.15.116) says "However, this book will be an uncomfortable read for those, and there are many, who regard Highland history as a repository of information to justify simplistic prejudices." Devine is able to handle complexity which challenges the sound-bite view of history. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Certainly a fan of Devine (another one of his books was already quoted in the article). I just wasn't aware that he had written anything else directly related to HIES. Thanks for locating those references. Camerojo (talk) 22:47, 11 January 2019 (UTC)