Talk:Hijab and burka controversies in Europe/Archive 1

Untitled
This proposed ban in the Netherlands — does it apply only to face-coverings worn for religious reasons, or is it intended to make it illegal for anyone to cover their face in public?

"Some countries already have older laws banning the wearing of masks in public"

Which countries?

Njál 17:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay ... it appears from the BBC that it is the case that any face-covering will be banned.


 * Is there an English translation available of Creemer's law in Belgium which, according to the article, 'states that persons on the public street and in public buildings must be identifiable at all times, "to protect the social order, which allows a harmonious process of human activities"'? Njál 18:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Denmark has a law banning masks at demonstrations Rune X2 00:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

is there a controversey of this kind in the USA? Richardkselby 03:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Richard, NY has an anti-mask law (from the 1890's) that was used on anti-globalisation protestors at the World Economic Forum when it was in NY after 9/11. This law, brought in to stop the KKK could be used the same way as the same laws in Belgium and italy.Hypnosadist 18:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Categories
I made a new Category:Islamic dress controversy in Europe, is there a need for all categories to appear in the main article and the category itself as well? Misheu 13:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Turkey
Why is there a section about Turkey in this article? Turkey is not in Europe. --어국한 (talk) 09:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

One who reads this part will think that nobody is allowed to wear a handkerchief in Turkey. This ban ONLY includes government workers (doctors, nurses, teachers, etc.) or other workers of public institutions And the students (from primary school to university). And the photos of the identifiy cards and driving licenses CAN be with the hair covered. -Mine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.4.21.238 (talk) 10:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Turkey is more or less recognized as part of Europe because of its involvement in the European Union, although I don't believe it's recognized as a full member, I know it started full member negotiations in 2005, and has been an associate member for over 40 years. 69.118.146.157 (talk) 19:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced POV statement
The following statement was added to the middle of the Belgium section (after the Keulen quote) by an anonymous user earlier today: "Regardless of what the minister said, Muslims cite authentic Islamic sources to support their position, and have proven that covering the face is firmly established in the religion, and not merely a cultural custom." I've removed it as unsourced and POV, not to mention that "Islamic sources" is a non-existent wikilink. Furthermore, even if such statement were sourced, it wouldn't belong at this point in the article, unless it was a specific response to Keulen's statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Darrow (talk • contribs) 01:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

And what about Albania and Bosnia?
People in these European countries are predominately muslim, but most people (including women) living on the dress in a typical Western way — and the same goes for Kosovo. So why not to cite these cases?--MaGioZal 01:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think because this comes from the French wiki and is really the affaire des foulards and is referring to Islamic dress in Western Europe where the real legal battles have been. gren グレン 18:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find both proponent and detractors of Islam (and the indifferent!) who would argue that the populations are not predominantly Muslim, check out Talk:Islam_in_Albania for example, talk about warring. A similar confusion exists for Bosnia the best figure appears to be 40% (CIA factbook) for Bosnia, that's a minority in anyone's book. The same reference book gives 70% estimate for muslim population of Albania, but it's clearly wrong as it assigns all people as being part of 3 religious groupings; other estimates apparently are of the order of 25%. Pbhj (talk) 14:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Rajasthani picture
I don't necessarily object to the picture from Rajasthan (NW India), but it should be remembered that, for complicated historical reasons, most of the women in Rajasthan who veil, usually by pulling the top of their saris over their faces, are Hindu not Muslim. If this picture is used, it should somehow be integrated into this discussion of the Islamic dress controversy in Europe, which has at times touched the religious or customary dress of non-Muslim men and women such as Hindus, Sikhs and Jews. Shakescene (talk) 08:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The bottom left quadrant of the picture, showing women from Rajasthan covering their head, is definitely not an example of Hijab. In fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. They are wearing a dress traditionally worn by Hindu women(in particular those belonging to Rajasthan, but also common amongst many other Hindu communities in India). I recommend that this part of the picture be replaced as it has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, nothing to do with Europe and nothing to do with any controversy surrounding it.

Fouraces (talk) 10:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Top Picture caption
I don't believe the image caption is correct for the top picture. It says that it show four examples of the Hijab, but the one on the upper right looks like a niqab. Wrad (talk) 00:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)ad

I agree. Also the one at bottom right looks like a Al-Amira. For different types of Muslim veils see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm Fouraces (talk) 19:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not hijab!
The Rajasthani women in this picture are not wearing hijab! Original image can be seen here. The women are wearing a dupatta. Please remove this misleading image. The term hijab cannot be used to refer to any piece of clothing used by women to cover their head especially if that clothing has traditional name. As far as I know, hijab is more of a Islamic religious clothing and there is no reason to believe the Rajasthani women depicted are muslims. Thanks --Emperor Genius (talk) 10:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Name change
I'm proposing the name change to be "Hijab in Europe". This is becase the cases are almost exclusive to female dress. Also, we should include the uncontroversial aspects of hijab as well - in many countries that respect religious freedom, the hijab is not considered "controversial".Bless sins (talk) 19:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

NPOV in the article
> Turkey is a secular state <

Turkey is a military dictatorship, an atheist military dictatorship that sustains itself via american and zionist military support. Even when there is a facet parliament and governing cabinet, the generals hold the actual power and stage coups when they feel like.

There is nothing secular in Turkey, even the army is actually atheist, rather than secular! 82.131.210.162 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC) woow I was living in an atheist country, i didn't notice! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.4.21.238 (talk) 14:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "despite the majority of Turks being Muslims"
 * This comment contradicts the above then? Turkey (I've not visited for a few years mind you) always struck me as Muslim in the same way that Britain is Christian, it has that religious heritage, many people nominally state it to be their religion, not so many are genuine practitioners. I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make between secular <=> atheist. As for claiming Turkey as a military dictatorship, if military coups are necessary for the army to seize power then it's not a military dictatorship. Pbhj (talk) 13:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * teh turkish militairy is ridiculously more powerufl in turkey than the British military is in Britan. to compare the two countries in anyway is erroneously erroenous. Smith Jones (talk) 23:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't comparing anything about the military in UK and Turkey, they are as you say vastly different. All I was saying is that impression from visiting Turkey was of a country that was nominally religious on the whole in the same way that the UK is nominally religious as a whole. People refer to UK as being a Christian country (whatever that means) but a relatively small percentage are practising Christians. People refer to Turkey as being a Muslim country (it's not under Sharia however) - like CIA factbook giving 99.8% Muslim population (mainly Shia) - this grates as the military have intervened against Islamic rule quite recently, something which would not happen if the country were really 99.8% (or any great majority) Muslim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbhj (talk • contribs) 02:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * so are you saying that because turkey is not a islamic dictarship means that its people are not Muslim? so by that logic if most americans identify as Christian then that means that the USA hsould be a Christian dciatorship based on Biblical law like iran. That doesnt work? Smith Jones (talk) 03:39, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah! One key difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam proscribes a complete system of living. Adherents of Islam are required to instigate Sharia and to subdue other religions. Thus if there were a huge majority without Sharia then (by my reading at least) there's something deficient in the practice of those apparent adherents of Islam. In contrast Christianity makes no requirements about the political system under which Christians should live. Islam creates a "Nation of Islam", Christianity creates individual Christians who follow Jesus. In summary there is no inherent contradiction to a largely Christian population living under an atheistic legal code whilst there is a contradiction with a largely Islamic population choosing to live under any other legal system than Sharia. FWIW. Pbhj (talk) 01:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ohh no3 I ssee your point and its a very good one and one that should be arddresse ub tge the article when applicable. Smith Jones (talk) 01:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Male dress
I was looking for the name of the hat muslim men wear, but this seems like it is almost exclusively about the islamic clothing for women. I think this page should be heavily changed to cover all Islamic clothing not just the Hijab and female clothing.

I'd also say this page seems to focus quite alot on the controversial aspects of Muslim wear and not much else. 92.232.235.147 (talk) 20:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

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Bulgaria
In 2016, a legal ban on face-covering Islamic clothing were adopted by Bulgarian parliament. --423Norvarwrwtere2423 (talk) 01:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * DailyMail: Bulgaria bans the burqa: Women no longer allowed to wear veils after nationalist party pushed for law change amid fears of Islamic terrorism

Latvia
Also in 2016, a legal ban on face-covering Islamic clothing were adopted by Latvian parliament.* Independent: Islamic face veil to be banned in Latvia despite being worn by just three women in entire country --423Norvarwrwtere2423 (talk) 01:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

merge proposal
I propose to merge the multiple descriptions of legislation or cultural norms which may dictate to wear or to ban the wearing of any form of Islamic which are described on this page and multiple other pages to be merged into the article Hijab by country. Please do not discuss here but on the talk page there: Talk:Hijab_by_country.LucLeTruc (talk) 13:32, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

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2017: Bans are planed by governments in Austria and in Luxembourg
In 2017, governments in Austria and in Luxembourg plan legal ban on face-covering Islamic clothing. --Strulare (talk) 18:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Krone.at: Auch aus Wiener SPÖ klares Ja zu Burkaverbot -> Austria
 * Lokalo.de: Rolle rückwärts, Luxemburger Regierung plant Burkaverbot -> Luxembourg

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