Talk:Hijra (South Asia)/Archive 3

hijra rituals

 * "Hijras undergo their physical 'rebirth' or nirvan operation and bury their severed organ in the ground, after which they are believed to have the power to confer fertility on others. Sacrificing their 'individual fertility,' they are then given 'universal' (pro)creative power."
 * — Gayatri Reddy, Social Research (2003).


 * Undoubtedly this is the rumor around hijras. Another ritual that I have heard is that hijras only burn their dead at night. They drag the bodies through the street instead of carrying them, and they hit the corpse with shoes, and then they insult it as it burns. Any non-hijra who sees this ritual will be cursed. I think both of these stories are slurs.
 * Thank you a lot for providing sources; I really appreciate it and I hope you continue to do so. It is important to include public perception in the Wiki article, and even though I think your story is too sensational, I may be wrong and in some places these "organ" severance may happen with associated sub-rituals.  But I wish there was some scholar-supervised hijra autobiography with which we could compare these things.  Blue Rasberry  17:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I find it heartwarming that you recognize that the hijra themselves are the primary source without peer regarding many aspects of their traditions. I also find it heartwarming that you recognize that scholastic and public opinion can be wrong.
 * Regarding castration traditions, I've read many descriptions of this. I must admit that far from all the sources record the actual source of their information. Direct observation would be best. Personal testimony second best. Obviously hearsay comes a very poor third. Hearsay can only come from either of the other two sources, or is at best an educated guess.
 * That a substantial number of hijra are indeed castrated is well documented, that this occurs outside hospitals is also documented. Just precisely how the castrations are performed may well be conjecture and rumour. I don't think we have much choice but to trust that a number of the reliable sources have had the same concerns we do, and have not published rashly.
 * I'll try to focus on the castration claims over the next week. I'm in no rush to write this all up, and I enjoy scouting around for information. Feel free to use anything you find and whatever I might gather to boldly document this aspect of the hijra way of life. I doubt I'd object, even if I do, your text will be in the edit history to be restored if necessary.
 * The most controversial thing about the hijra is only terminology associated with movements for support of non-traditional sexuality. But don't let that stop you being bold. That PoV is absolutely relevant and reliably sourced in regard to the hijra. I have already and will continue to write it into the article. The only thing that's going to cause friction is if it is assumed as the PoV of the narrator of the article, i.e. Wikipedia's view.
 * Please remember, the scientific terminology does not deny the human rights and dignity of LGBT people, nor oppose expression of their sexuality in any of its forms, in fact, it has been designed to accommodate description of these things, just without endorsing them, or supporting the higher-level abstractions often put forward in queer theory. They are not incompatible forms of expression.
 * Anyway, enough said, great to have you working on this article. Alastair Haines (talk) 05:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well written. And undoubtedly, a significant number of hijras have done some kind of castration ritual, and most of these have been done outside of the Western concept of an operation theater. The stories are well known and reliable people have written about them, but so far as I know, the neutral observer has not yet tracked a hijra community through enough instances of the ritual to determine the extent to which it is codified, and I know of no hijra academic producing content, although some NGOs are beginning to feel this pressure to publish. I think we are on the same level here.  Blue Rasberry  14:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice comments Rasberry, you're too kind. :))
 * To ping a nice comment back: politics and religion are only as valuable as the good they do for people. Any ideology needs to start with understanding people with the intent to learn and help, and should never leave that aim. Unfortunately, somehow or other, noble aims seem to go awry.
 * From a couple of things you've said, whatever group or groups you may belong to, you at least care about hijra self-identification, and also care about them not being slandered. I could not agree with you more.
 * Fwiw, the hijra ideal is only slightly different to a famous Christian from long ago called Origen. Legend has it that he castrated himself to escape lust. There's no transgender stuff with Origen, there is with the hijra. But as far as castration goes, they express perhaps the most extreme religious devotion possible. That's a matter for admiration, not slander.
 * So, yes, I think we might well be on the same page. Very best to you. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:11, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not see the parallel. Origen was eventually anathematised, and his castration was based on an interpretation of Pauline theology (merging the idea that we remove that which offends, and of there being eunuchs for Christ, as I recall from my Franciscan theology studies) that the church rejected.  As you say, lust may have been the thorn in his side, and seen by him as a hindrance to his own salvation; but I am not sure that renouncing masculinity in a non-salvationist theology can be paralleled to Origen.  'True/ideal' hijra seem closer to the Roman cult of the Gallae priestesses of Cybele, a remnant of the pan-mediterranean cult of Mater Magna, the Great Goddess; closer than western trans narratives, nadle, xanith, or Origen (although 'false/other' hijra may be closer to Xanith).  However interesting this all is, it is discussion that is off-topic, unless we have WP:RS that actually substantiate such connections. Mish (talk) 11:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You're allowed to wander off topic on a talk page, and speculate a bit, at least in my book, especially if it raises good questions and promotes harmonious collaboration.
 * I agree, of course, Origen is much more remote than the example you give. But the point I was making depends only on the parallel of castration for spiritual reasons.
 * The version of the Origen legend I have attributes it to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount Mt 5:27–30 "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery ... it is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
 * I've not checked the credentials of the legend, nor of the alleged basis for the alleged castration. What I do know is Origen was a very deep thinker. His analysis of the Song of Songs is amazing. No wonder we still have most of it, even though it's so long!
 * Now it's my turn to have drifted off-track. Nice ping-pong though. Cheers Alastair Haines (talk) 11:35, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Source for deleted text

 * "Anne Ogborn took the project a step farther when she traveled to India and adopted this identity."
 * —Evan B. Towle, and Morgan, Lynn Marie Morgan, "Romancing the Transgender Native: Rethinking the Use of the "Third Gender" Concept", A Journal of Lesbian and Gay Studies 8 (2002): 469–497.

Interestingly, the abstract linked above also notes: "Over the past decade there has been an increase in the popular use of cross-cultural examples to provide legitimacy to transgender movements in the United States."

Any chance you could have mercy regarding the Anne Ogborn text, Mish? It is verfified against the reliable source above (and others). By all means move it to a section you think more appropriate. I don't know who provided the text, but I hate anything that can be verified being deleted from Wikipedia. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:00, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That's fine, but these were not the sources the text was sourced to, one sentence was linked to an obscure and non-WP:RS, the recent addition had no source. It doesn't give any information relevant to the section it appeared in.  By all means, if you think it belongs somewhere (I cannot think where information about a western transsexual who became a hijra might fit), rework the text along with these newer sources replacing the text with non-WP:RS and no source whatever, with sourced text, and put it there.  It tells us Ogborn became a hijra, but nothing about becoming a hijra - so might be more appropriate under a section like Famous hijras (although people might object that Ogborn is non-notable beyond becoming a hijra).  There is lots of well-sourced information we do not include, because we have to limit for relevance and brevity.  I agree that there should be some mention of westerner(s) becoming hijra, but not sure how extensive this should be - certainly no more weight needs to be given to this than hijras who become western transsexuals. Mish (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I could see you were right about it being insufficiently sourced. And yes, I agree it is of marginal relevance.
 * As I said, though, I'm protective of information that can be sourced, or already is. Someone went to the trouble of giving it to us.
 * To be honest though, it's still there in the edit history and I've now sourced it and made it visible in the archives. That's enough for me.
 * It's an interesting point that hijras who migrate to the West would not generally attract as much notice. I think you're right that's a sort of systematic bias. Slipped right under my radar. Mind you, my approach when I see biases is to add info regarding the marginalized, rather than shed info on the prominent. It's jolly hard work adding stuff, so I normally leave things be and let others provide the extra material. Obviously it depends on circumstances, though.
 * He he, good reply, I'm not that fussed that I'll actually restore this. I think that section is better off without the isolated case of Anne Ogborn. I wonder if her castration was performed in the West or in India though. It might be a reliable source of information regarding standard hijra ceremonies surrounding it. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:06, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Hijda
I added the word "hijda" as one alternative, as it is used in and. AxelBoldt 23:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The retroflex r of Brahmic languages is sometimes transliterated as d. So HIjra and hijda are homophonetic to Brahmic language speakers, if not homophonemic (or, more simply, though they sound different to a westerner, they're the same sound to most north Indians, as the r is pronounced with the tongue rolled back. So these are the same word, just transliterated differently.) --Anniepoo (talk) 03:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation?
IPA information about pronunciation of "Hijra" would be useful here. AxelBoldt 05:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Bangla
"In Bangla "hijra" is called হিজরা, hijra, hijla, hijre, Hizra, Hizre." No it isn't In Bangla hijra is called popi. PiCo (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks PiCo, it's always helpful to have reliable information from someone who's lived in the country. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I can't claim to be a reliable source, actually. I was standing on the roof of my house in Dhaka (they have flat roofs) in 1980 or 81 with my bearer (yes, we had bearers, very colonial), and a very effeminate young man came to the front gate, and the bearer said, rather contemptuously, "we have a popi visiting us". In those days I understood Bangla, though I've forgetten it now. I can also tell you that were two male brothels in Dhakla at the time - not that I visited them, but asked. BTW: "The word kothi (or koti) is common across India, similar to the Kathoey of Thailand," according to the article. The similarity is, I think, entirely accidental - the Thai word kathoey is a loan-word from Khmer ktoi, meaning "different", and used with that meaning in normal speech. Khmer belongs to the Mon-Khmer language family, and North Indian languages to the Indo-European family (and South Indian to Dravidian). I strongly doubt that Indians would borrow a word from Mon-Khmer, or vice-versa. PiCo. 115.128.83.64 (talk) 10:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I can't speak to this case specifically, but khmer borrows very heavily from Sanskrit, despite the fact that it's clearly in another family (think Urdu borrowing liberally from Arabic). It's entirely possible that Kothi and Kathoey share the same root.--96.49.202.207 (talk) 07:05, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Terminology
The term 'chakka', as a term of abuse, is pretty general, it's closer to the english 'queer' than to 'hijra'. Since this is unsourced I'm reverting it. --Anniepoo (talk) 01:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hijra religion
I am hoping that stories about hijra religious tradition are relatively distinct from all other recent talk, and therefore removed from any controversy.

Right now, the article has are four narratives of interest to hijras - Bahuchara Mata, Ardhanari, the hijras waiting story in Ramayan, and Aravan. All these are stories from Hindu religious tradition.

Any of these stories could be fleshed out, but more interesting would be any stories of Muslim hijra tradition or otherwise something non-Hindu. Anyone have any leads?  Blue Rasberry  04:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just want to say thanks for the accurate, neutral and concise descriptions of relevant Hindu traditions. I seem to recall one or two typos, you might want to check over that. I'll do the copyedit at some stage if you don't have time. Alastair Haines (talk) 05:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've been thinking. We all feel the current definition is not ideal. I've mentioned before that I think hijra spirituality needs a more prominent focus. After some more reflection, I think we might be able to source a suitable definition of the hijra in this way. Whatever else hijra are as people and do in their lifestyle, their own explanation for their roots is self-indentification with a "spiritual movement". They leave their tribe to become separate from other people, devoted instead to Bahuchara Mata and guru-led hijra communities. The picture seems more complicated in Pakistan, where the word hijra appears to have started. There appears to be some degree of synchretism with Pakistani hijra in retaining Allah worship.
 * We've got a lot of sources for this already, but I'll try to find more. I think I've been hearing four kinds of voices coming out of sources:
 * idealist hijra talking about asexual devotion to Bahuchara Mata
 * realistic hijra talking about a homosexual lifestyle
 * Western LGBT activists talking about a third gender
 * doctors talking about men's health issues
 * Of those four sources, the doctors are most remote from self-identification. I believe it is perfectly encyclopedic for us to focus first on idealistic self-identification. I think I would also recommend placing LGBT language ahead of medical language, for the same reasons of self-identification.
 * Medical textbooks can and do baldly state that the hijra are men. That's all well and good but when scientific sources are dealing with people, they don't do it in biographical style. Wiki is a people's encyclopedia, not a science textbook. I think Rasberry is absolutely correct that with groups of people, elements of biographies of living people apply. While "men who wear women's clothing" can be established by "neutral" reliable sources, it's just an non-ideal approach here, and "physiological males" is just as insensitive a way to speak about "men" in general as it is to speak about the hijra here.
 * Anyway, that's my current thinking, and the defense I'd offer if we changed to a spiritual definition and that met protest. What do Rasberry and Mish think? And anybody else? Alastair Haines (talk) 00:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That sounds OK, although need to see how it fleshes out. Although I would prefer 'spiritual' to 'idealistic' to describe 'true' hijra, and 'secular' to 'realistic' to describe 'fake' hijra.  Although there may be other terms like 'aspirational' and 'practical' that may work better.  Western LGBT discussion needs to look at projecting third gender and trans onto hijra.  The 'true' hijra do seem to have an element of neither male-nor-female (rather than as a third gender or transgender) and this needs to be reflected.  Does identifying as not male or female make true hijra a gender in its own right? Mish (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The practice sounds okay because it avoids issues that ought not be made prominent.
 * The third gender thing is both a point of Western activism and a traditional line of thought. Germ theory is not widely accepted in South Asia, DNA phenotyping is a progression from that and therefore out of the cultural dialogue, and for that matter in all cultures, in all the world, and for all time before the advent of science, anyone that is either physiologically or sociologically aberrant in a sexual way has had their sex determination up for philosophical debate. Physiological science had no readily identifiable part in the development of (pre-scientific, and therefore the entirety of) hijra culture; however, I think I agree with every assertion you have made about medical science's classification of hijras, except that I would tone down your "100%" assertions to "98%".
 * Doctors talking about men's health issues does have a prominent place in the article because that is the first line of Western thought in classifying the hijra. But the very fact that this comes up in literature at all is because the topic gets brought to debate with frequency beyond the ability of a few Western activist organizations to arrange.
 * Religion is important, but the cultural context is the heart of hijra-ness because the distinction is not there like it is in Western countries. In Abrahamic tradition, thieves, for example, generally do not pray for success in thievery. India-originated thought encourages all people to relate to the gods with less shame, so the "realist" and "idealist" distinctions you are making above are not, I think, distinctions that are best for describing this population. Whores and saints get the same ranking in piety so long as they do their dharm, so this is not a line I would encourage making without authority in literature.
 * What Mish is saying hardly has a section now, but since that has been the crux of most of what we have been writing about all this time, then perhaps the time to create a section is here.
 * Here is a playpen for the lede as it is now. It is untouched, but I would prefer to shift the primary definition of hijra-ness from any gender qualification to participation in the culture. Lots of people are male and not hijra; maleness or any other sex is incidental but not required in defining hijra, so hypothetically a space alien could be a hijra if the alien lived the hijra lifestyle. I would rather the medical stuff be taken prominently and thoroughly in a section. If it is time to jump in the sandbox, let's do it and start wrapping up the basics so we can focus on filling out the rest of the article with mass citations.  Blue Rasberry  02:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow! That's as classy as "gender liminal" Mish! ::) I like "aspirational" and "practitional". Nanda uses "ideally" (rather than "spiritually") perhaps "in practice" might match that. Let's see. One thing's for sure, so long as we agree what we want to be saying, we will certainly be able to brainstorm a range of ways of how to say it.
 * I really like the subtlety of Mish's point, if I've understood it, that calling asexuality a third sex is not ideal in at least some contexts. Imagine there were seven sexes, couldn't some people persue an ideal of asexuality? Perhaps that would be classified as yet another sex, but perhaps not, depending on context. If I've followed Mish correctly, in gender studies terminology, the hijra historically-religious-ideal might be best classed as "asexuality" and "one of many possible genders".
 * Rasberry appears to present a case for the importance of presenting the hijra in their cultural setting. If I'm hearing correctly, part of that is recognising our own inclination to "frame" the hijra from the perspective of habits in our own culture and language. We shouldn't simply ask, what is a hijra? But we should recognize the answer will depend on point of view: self-identification, outside perception within an Indian context, and only finally Western templates for understanding them, be those medical, gender activist or gender conservative.
 * I think I like and agree with everything that is being said. I have a fresh suggestion, though. Since we are writing for average English readers that might include inquisitive Western teenagers, I propose we start but do not stop with something of a classic Western encyclopedic approach. My suspicion is that defining the hijra historically first will come across as encyclopedic. That will establish cultural context. Interaction with culture can follow. A picture of hijra as they see themselves and as they are perceived in South Asia can follow. Western attempts, both clinical and gender-progressive (or gender-creative) can then be compared and contrasted ,without us adopting a POV pro or con either, each has both positives and negatives, they've got different purposes.
 * But, to define the hijra historically, I still need more sources. Most sources either go down the men/castrated/STD-risk line, or the long-standing in South Asian tradition, alternative-sexuality and gender-liminality line. I did find two historical sources cited in a PhD thesis. I can't remember if they were available online, or in my local library. I'll have to check.
 * Any more thoughts? Alastair Haines (talk) 07:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Only a comment, but this is an English section of an international encyclopedia, and Indian English is one of the official languages in India with 90 million speakers; that is 30 million more than British English speakers. So, a substantial number of readers may be as familiar with the culture of the subcontinent as that of the West. Mish (talk) 08:55, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Banana Picture
I guess the picure of the person with the banana...is that for sensationalism? I think most people get the idea, if they are dressing or changing their mannerism like those of women. You dont need a picture of the banana.

Isnt there another picture that can be used? Can the man who posted it get another picture of his friend? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.167.113 (talk) 00:20, February 20, 2011
 * I do not see anything sensational about this picture. If you want to contact the person who posted it then his contact information is in the data describing this picture; in general you can find such data for any picture on Wikipedia just by clicking on the picture.  I have no objections to anyone replacing this picture if an equally good one is proposed.  Blue Rasberry  08:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

3rd GENDER rather than SEX
Hijra is best considered a third GENDER type, not a third SEX type. Sex is biological and anatomical - i.e. Male or Female - and not subject to cultural interpretation.

Gender is a cultural construct - i.e. man, woman, Hijra. It is my understand that the Hijra are anatomically-born males who are culturally a third gender type.

When I studied this subject in undergrad anthropology I recall a fourth gender type present in India, that of a culturally-male female, which I believe is called something like 'Sādhin" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Milo rules (talk • contribs) 20 April 2006

They are people having Klinefelter's syndrome(many of them they are born that way). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.103.212 (talk) 08:21, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Social status and economic circumstances
It is hard to get sources for the phenomenon of hijras exposing themselves to tourists on trains so that they will pay them to go away. If I may offer a bit of original research [!!] exactly this happened to me on a train from Agra to Amritsar in march 2009. My Indian train companions either paid up or protested vigorously. I was flashed but the hijra (I was utterly unfamiliar with the phenomenon at the time) did not get the compensation they expected and was shouted at by a lone middle aged man until they went away. Perhaps someone can find a source that better documents the trend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.160.125.149 (talk • contribs) 12 July 2011

Hjras, Sex and Religion
My two pennorth - according my understanding, the basis of the hjra status is ascetism in the service of the goddess Bukhara Mata. I suggest that they are related to the galli of Ancient Rome (q,v). Their activity as prostitutes is because they need to eat, since they no longer have a spiritual function in this secular age. They may or may not retain their penises. They wouldn't use them for sex (they probably wouldn't work very well) but as 'feminine' people they would be receivers, as in other cultures, quite possibly intercrurally.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Uhm, is what you say actual knowledge, or mere speculation on your part? Because it sure sounds like the latter. [AR]
 * I cant bring to mind the original study (age telling on me I guess) but there is an account by Serena Nanda in Herdt's Third Sex, Third Gender
 * Male ascetism in Hindu religion is seen as the opposite to female sexuality. However those who can't or don't want to engage in procreation can become renouncers. Bukhara Mata and Cybele are related to earlier mother goddesses. I don't have personal experience of their sexual activity, but it is a matter of practicality. Plus as women prostitutes, they would be receivers. Also anal intercourse may be taboo.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

However - another question. What is a temple prostitute? My understanding is that a prostitute provides sex for financial (not spiritual) return. User:Chevin 14:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, a good dictionary might help you there.[AR]
 * Well I did actually look it up in Wiktionary.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia has an article on it, too. So-called temple prostitution or religious prostitution is an age-old custom, spread through large parts of the world, and certianly not a simple subject. AlexR 14:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * It still sounds like a term conjured up by a sex phobic anthropologistChevin
 * This is an interesting and thought provoking discussion. However, it does not prove that certain rules are not broken. People are people, and as is found in this subculture, there are many different disciplines of life. None of which can be grouped as either of you.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.18.234.125 (talk) 06:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Reference to Kama Sutra
The section on history says "The ancient Kama Sutra mentions the performance of oral sex on male parishioners at Hindu temples by hijras." Citation is needed here, as I did not find this in the Kama sutra when I looked it up. -- Sudarshanhs 16:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think they are referring to this passage, though temples are not mentined. AxelBoldt 20:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have read many translations of Kamasutra. Nothing is mentioned of Hijda Prostitution in temples. The only remote reference is of such prostitution in Bath Houses [Ankush] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.18.3.130 (talk • contribs)


 * The above anon user deleted several sections. I restored and referenced them, but left out references to temple prostitution (until a reference can be found). ntennis 06:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It is calumny to state that oral sex was performed on male parishioners at Hindu temples by hijras. There is no reference of sex being performed in Hindu temples, (except for the followers of Vamachar school of thought). The only instance of oral sex being performed on males is in bath houses where effeminate males/eunuchs used to do so while giving a massage. Read Kamasutra and any other text which you wish. You will find my assetions correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.18.3.130 (talk • contribs) December 16, 2006

Prevalence of prostitution
Is it known to what extent hijras works as prostitutes?

2009-08-07 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

I agree, there is no citation to support the claim that "many" hijra are "Male Prostitutes" or "Male Homosexuals". Does not the fact that hijra are castrated mean that using the word "Male" so many times is inaccurate? HeyFK (talk) 22:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

You have made two misunderstandings here. First, It is not known to what extent hijras are actually castrated. Secondly, gender is determined by self-identification and not what genitals the person has. What I wonder is: is it known to what extent hijras make their living as prostitutes?

2010-05-14 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 (talk) 09:58, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you provide diffs for the contested edits please, otherwise it is difficult to see what the problem is. Similarly, if you feel that information is wrong, we need to be sure that what is written is accurate and verifiable; so can you provide the sources that will substantiate what you are arguing for/against.  A link is the easiest way, where possible; but where you are saying something is (or is not) said in a text, can you provide a quote that details what you are saying, alongside the reference with page number.  Otherwise, we are dealing with opinion, and it is not possible to have the text reflect opinion, it needs reliable sources.Mish (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I should correct myself. Different passages make different statements about the prevalence of genital modification among hijras. So I personally don’t know how common it is. The idea of gender being self-identified was adopted by me to solve the problem of transsexualism. Anyway, this is a distraction. I have to repeat my question: is it known to what extent hijras make their living as prostitutes?

2010-05-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.146.16 (talk) 09:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Not that I am aware of, there is some discussion about true hijra and pseudo-hijra further down, and if I understood this right 'true hijra' is a historic religious vocation, while pseudo-hijra are seen (by true hijra) as those who do not have their genitalia removed, can be married to women and have a family, engage in homosexual prostitution for profit, sometimes grooming children in a similar way to how beggars operate in India. These pseudo-hijra act as women, but are not necessarily self-identified as women, while true hijra act as women, live as women, but self-identify as neither man nor woman (i.e. as hijra).  Then there are those who would be equivalent to western transsexuals, who have some form of genital surgery or castration, live as women and identify as women - my understanding is that this is less common in India.  So, from earlier discussion, it seems important to differentiate between these types of hijra, rather than saying hijra are one thing rather than another.  Finding accurate figures to determine the proportion of which exist in Indian society?  I'd love to see them, but I don't see how that could happen.  I use the term true hijra and pseudo-hijra here because I cannot think of a better one - true hijra use the term fake themselves, I use pseudo not in a derogatory way, but to signify something other than that which is true.Mish (talk) 09:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Arabic root
The article has a number of errors but the one I shall highlight is the term Hijra being linked to Arabic word for immigration Hijr. The person who inserted this is totally mistaken as the letter r in Hijr is not the same r as in Hijra - in Urdu as well as in Hindi there are two different letters to represent the different sounds. The r in Hijra is transliterated in India by the letter 'd' hence Hijda. The sound for the r in Hijra is known as hard r and this also exists in Urdu so there is no room for confusion except for the person who erroneously linked Arabic Hijr with Urdu/Hindi Hijra because the two words have totally separate etymology. This needs urgent correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.221.103.31 (talk) 23:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone seems to have found a reference explaining a connection. You seem to know what you are talking about, but since the statement is sourced, I think it is best to get one more opinion on the matter.  I tagged that line as "dubious" and I propose that we wait for a week before making a change to give time to anyone else to comment.  If no one comments then I will or anyone else should remove the statement.   Blue Rasberry    (talk)   01:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The source only describes the meaning of Hjr, which is; "hjr (main meanings): a) to break with, leave, forsake, renounce, emigrate, flee" : Lahzar Zanned, "Root formation and polysemic organization", in Mohammad T. Alhawary and Elabbas Benmamoun (eds), Perspectives on Arabic linguistics XVII-XVIII: papers from the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Annual Symposia on Arabic Linguistics, (John Benjamins, 2005), "p. 97." It does not say any connection or link of Hjr with the word Hijra.
 * The term Hijra have no relation with Hjr even with pronunciation. Thus shall remove the claim.--Omer123hussain (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Page Merge: Muslim Hijras in South Asia
The page Muslim Hijras in South Asia should be merged here with Hijra (South Asia) as it already contain a related section to describe association of Hijra community with particular religion. Any way I had put a request of merger on top of the article page for further discussion.--Omer123hussain (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Having two articles is a form of content forkery. — Æµ§œš¹  [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 01:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅. Uncontested merge. — Æµ§œš¹  [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 00:31, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I support this merge having happened.  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   02:29, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Lack of Neutrality
The social status and economic circumstances section is not neutral. There are no citations, however the article states that hijras aggressively panhandle and expose themselves to those who do not donate, and appear uninvited to perform at birth ceremonies and will curse the baby if they are not appropriately recompensed. These statements, especially without citations, appear to me to be offensive and biased and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.229.178.141 (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not fully understand your complaint.
 * You may be suggesting that the statements are true, but that they are poorly written and the facts need to be presented in another way.
 * Or you may be questioning the veracity of the statements, without a complaint to the neutrality of the writing.
 * Or you may be doing both of these.
 * I mean this in the nicest way possible but the summary you have written describes the popular perception of hijras and is to me good information. Something which your summary is missing is the concept that people in general want these things to happen.  I have no citations for this just now so there is a verification problem but I cannot support your claim of of a violation of WP:NPOV without more explanation from you. Thoughts?   Blue Rasberry    (talk)   17:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No action has been taken on this matter since the original complaint was made, despite recent and important edits to the page. I have removed the following section from the page.
 * "Hijras are often encountered on streets, trains, and other public places demanding money from people. If refused, the hijra may attempt to embarrass the man into giving money, using obscene gestures, profane language, and even sexual advances. In India for example, threatening to expose their private parts in front of the man if he does not donate something.
 * Denied legal and social justice, hijras take on a magical persona that inspires fear and sometimes respect from mainstream society. Hijras perform religious ceremonies at weddings and at the birth of male babies, involving music, singing, and sexually suggestive dancing. These are intended to bring good luck and fertility. Although hijras are most often uninvited, the host usually pays the hijras a fee. Many fear the hijras' curse if they are not appeased, bringing bad luck or infertility, but for the fee they receive, they can bless goodwill and fortune on to the newly born. Hijras are said to be able to do this because, since they do not engage in sexual activities, they accumulate their sexual energy which they can use to either bestow a boon or a bane.
 * Hijras can also come as an invitee to one's home, and their wages can be very high for the services they perform. Supposedly, they can give insight into future events as well bestow blessings for health. Hijras that perform these services can make a very good living if they work for the upper classes.
 * Please do not restore this section until the information included therein can be verified by citation. Moreover, the argument for NPOV seems very clear to this editor; we would not welcome a lengthy discussion on the main Transgender page about how trans* people might engage in obscene gestures and sexual advances, because to focus on such a point would be to imply this is a key part of trans* identity. As written, this section reduces hijras to a set of behaviors which come from no reliable source; even if true, such degrading talk has no place in an encyclopedia. 68.6.172.39 (talk) 05:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Title chang
Hijra is the Hindi word describing transgendered.It is not the word used in all languages. Can we change the title to transgendered or gay since this is an English article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.147.224.225 (talk) 18:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There already are articles for gay and transgender. This article is about the hijra culture in South Asia. What do you think of this article?  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   12:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The recent changes in Bangladesh underscore the value of having a specific Hijra article. Hijra will be used in English in Bangladesh, not a translation to some other English word. Hennings.iheid (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Wording change
"The term more commonly advocated by social workers and transgender community members themselves is 'khwaaja sira' (Urdu: خواجه سرا‎)..."

This is written right in the opening to the article. If this is the term advocated by social workers and the community, why is Wikipedia going against those wishes? It seems much more respectful to the subjects for the article to be labelled Khwaaja Sira. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.117.33.175 (talk) 22:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Hijras and breasts
Do hijras generally wear fake breasts (or get implants, in modern times)? FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 09:22, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Extremely improbable, as they seem to be far too marginalised and poor to afford medical care comparable to Western standards, including surgery, implants and hormone therapy. Hijras are very much separate from urban, Western-influenced LGBT communities, who are significantly more likely to have access to such measures. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Please remember that this is page to discuss how to improve the article, not a forum to discuss hijras in general.   Pepper Beast    (talk)  19:40, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Wording
Note the following in the introduction:

'These communities have sustained themselves over generations by "adopting" young boys who are rejected by, or flee, their family of origin.[10] Many work as sex workers for survival.[11]'

Is there any reason why adopting is put in quotes" It simply links to the page on adoption. Even the citation at the end of the sentence says the following:

""None of the hijra narratives I recorded supports the widespread belief in India that hijras recruit their membership by making successful claims on intersex infants. Instead, it appears that most hijras join the community in their youth, either out of a desire to more fully express their feminine gender identity, under the pressure of poverty, because of ill treatment by parents and peers for feminine behaviour, after a period of homosexual prostitution, or for a combination of these reasons." RB Towle, and LM Morgan, "Romancing the Transgender Native: Rethinking the Use of the 'Third Gender' Concept", in S. Stryker and S. Whittle (eds), Transgender Studies Reader, (Routledge, 2006), p. 116."

Maybe it's just me, but the use of quotes around the word adopting seems to reinforce the false narrative that the very citation itself rejects. Perhaps it's minor to bring up here, but should it be removed? MindForgedManacle (talk) 14:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Gender systems
I updated the Gender systems article to reference this article. I'm noticing some discrepancy on the Gender systems article in describing Hijra, but am not familiar enough with the topic to help address any differences. Another set of eyes would be appreciated. Ckoerner (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Information involving forced sex change racket, extortion
From the 1990 to 2015 and pre independence there have been various numerous sources from well published news papers have been made available.Discussions on the topic are welcome on the reasoning and point of view on why information from the folowing sources http://m.indiatoday.in/story/determined-group-of-forcibly-castrated-men-file-criminal-charges-against-their-abductors/1/293288.html http://m.timesofindia.com/city/delhi/Eunuchs-not-always-born-but-made/articleshow/1219979.cms http://m.timesofindia.com/city/bengaluru/Conflicts-surface-over-sex-change-racket/articleshow/3701104.cms http://m.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/genital-mutilation-suspects-allege-sex-change-racket/article9155922.ece http://m.timesofindia.com/city/bengaluru/Teen-undergoes-forced-sex-change-surgery-by-eunuchs/articleshow/3735765.cms http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-teen-sold-to-eunuchs-for-rs25000-in-ahmadabad-escapes-1326981 http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-gurus-of-eunuchs-can-not-recommend-castration-govt-1660422 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blazearon21 (talk • contribs) 23:35, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Is the Times of India article a reliable source?
Upon looking at the Times of India article, it appears to be extremely biased against the Hijras. Are you sure this is really a source that can be trusted for information about them? Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 19:47, 9 October 2016 (UTC) What makes you think the article is biased against them? Blazearon21 (talk) 20:04, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

I think that the section on Hijras in religion should be edited. At this time the article only says that Hijras belong to a special caste in society. To expand on that I think this should be added: In India, hijras are respected for their devotion to the Goddess and their resulting powers. However, they are not completely accepted in society and receive contradictory judgements. This is due to the fact that they do not take spouses and disown themselves from their kin. Thus, since hijras are not included within the typical lineage system that is a key principle in Hindu culture they are often considered as threatening to the caste order.

Serena Nanda, Neither Man nor Woman: The Hijras of India, (1999).

I also found something in the article I think is incorrect. The article refers to the emasculation operation as being called "nirwaan." However, I have found that the operation is actually called "nirvan." This is logical because in Hindi, nirvan literally means liberation. Thus, after undergoing castration, the male person is liberated, but then reborn as a hijra and blessed with the power of the Goddess.

Serena Nanda, Neither Man nor Woman: The Hijras of India, (1999). Thesaramarie (talk) 01:02, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Born Male vs. Assigned Male language
There seems to be some back and forth regarding how to phrase hijra's sexual identity at birth. I wouldn't bring it up if I wasn't seeing it changed a few times in the last few weeks. I would ask for some input (and maybe consensus) about how this should be phrased: born male or assigned male. It would make it easier to deal with editing changes and reverting when someone changes it again. --LibraryGurl (talk) 01:49, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Assigned male (at birth) is more respectful and NPOV, generally preferred by (contemporary Western, admittedly) transgender people themselves and increasingly standard in transgender discourse (compare the name of the popular transfeminist and trans activist webcomic Assigned Male by Sophie Labelle). Compare also Julia Serano's glossary. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:18, 16 June 2017 (UTC)