Talk:Hijri year

Bad fork
Why is this a separate article from Islamic calendar? AnonMoos (talk) 16:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Because it's a separate ? — Llywelyn II   11:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Typo?
Shouldn't "The year of the Hirja 622 ..." be "The year of the Hijra 622 ..."? 121.127.212.18 (talk) 04:02, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Conversion to CE?
Does the Hijri year use a lunar year of different length than the CE's solar year resulting in 2013CE-1434AH=579 instead of 622? RJFJR (talk) 04:55, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'm seeing clarification at Islamic calendar. Should something about this be added to this article? RJFJR (talk) 17:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. — Llywelyn II   11:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

there are two hijris in the article
Specify!
 * "The first day of 1 AH corresponds to July 16, 622, denoted as "1 Muharram 1 AH"."

and then
 * "In fact however, 1st of Muharram was April 18 in 622[2] while the Prophet left Mecca on June 21, arrived at Quba on June 28, and entered Medina on July 2 in the year 622.[3]"

Which one is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adoczek (talk • contribs) 01:16, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:ERA
This edit established the usage of the page as. Kindly maintain it consistently pending a consensus to the contrary. — Llywelyn II   11:54, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

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No such thing as a "Western" year.
I corrected it to "Gregorian" and someone reverted it without giving a reason. Grassynoel (talk) 10:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for engaging in the wp:Bold, Revert, Discuss process. I did actually give an edit note.
 * Actually you changed a number of names to Gregorian. I agree that "Western year" is un-encyclopedic and should be changed. Common Era should not.

I hope that this answers your query. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:12, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The Islamic calendar predates the Gregorian reform
 * It is unnecessarily insensitive to use the Christian calendar to benchmark the calendars of other religions. "Common Era" provides an acceptable degree of separation, even though their epochs are the same.

Start date confusion
An issue with the epoch start is in the article as also mentioned in the Typo and there are two hijris in the article Talk sections above. The article's Definition section gives the start as April 19, 622 CE (Julian), however most other Wikipedia articles I saw related to the topic which mention it use July 16, 622 CE, which seems to approximately agree with this article's Formula section (around July 15 if you reverse the fractional number for year 1 into a date), plus any information I could find during a Google search point to July 16 (or July 15th if specifically pointing to sunset of the 15th which marks the start of the 16th if you have the modern division of the day in mind). This would not be a Gregorian versus Julian discrepancy since July 16, 622 CE Julian would be July 19, 622 CE as a proleptic Gregorian calendar date (the Julian was less out of synch in 622 CE compared to now, and even today their dates are not a full 3 months out of synch). From anything I could quickly find, it seems Julian Calendar date Friday July 16, 622 CE (proleptic Gregorian Calendar date Friday July 19, 622 CE) is the actual start date while the April date mentioned in the Definition section is incorrect. I am unable to check the citation given for the April date (the title has the appearance of a fringe religious book—"Chronology of Prophetic Events"—which makes me wonder if it is even an appropriate source). An explanation for the April date would be appreciated as, as far as I can see right now, there's nothing reliable supporting it. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 18:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * According to Hijri calendar:
 * "1 Muharram of the new fixed calendar corresponded to Friday, 16 July 622 CE, the equivalent civil tabular date (same daylight period) in the Julian calendar. The Islamic day began at the preceding sunset on the evening of 15 July. This Julian date (16 July) was determined by medieval Muslim astronomers by projecting back in time their own tabular Islamic calendar, which had alternating 30- and 29-day months in each lunar year plus eleven leap days every 30 years. For example, al-Biruni mentioned this Julian date in the year 1000 CE. Although not used by either medieval Muslim astronomers or modern scholars to determine the Islamic epoch, the thin crescent moon would have also first become visible (assuming clouds did not obscure it) shortly after the preceding sunset on the evening of 15 July, 1.5 days after the associated dark moon (astronomical new moon) on the morning of 14 July."
 * which seems a solid citation for 16 July and makes the April date dubious. Unless anyone has better evidence? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:03, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

See Pre-Islamic Arabian calendar. July 15 or 16, 622 CE, is the start date in the proleptic Islamic calendar assuming that there were no intercalary months in the first ten years of the calendar. The prohibition of intercalary months in 10 AH implies that intercalation was done previously and this implies that the actual start of 1 AH probably was three lunar months earlier, hence the cited April date. Perhaps it should be stated more clearly that the often cited July 15 (or 16) date for the epoch of the Islamic calendar is based on a strictly lunar calendar (12 months each year, with no intercalation) and that the conversion formula should not be used before 10 AH. AstroLynx (talk) 11:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have just found a source, Burnaby (1901), for that analysis. It says that the July date is the most commonly accepted but it should really be April. I suggest that we need to show both dates somehow but maybe Hijri calendar is the more appropriate place for it? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:39, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hijrah would need additional text too. Any volunteers? (Not me, it's above my pay grade.) --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 13:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Who better to ask than Muslims? The Arabic Wikipedia page about Hijrah has a few dates equivalents: 12 Rabi al-Awwal 1 AH = 27 September 622 proleptic Gregorian calendar (PGC); 27 Safar 1 AH = 12/13 September 622 PGC; and 8 Rabi al-Awwal 1 AH = 23 September 622 PGC. This brings 1 Muharram 1 AH to July 622, and not to April.


 * I suppose Caussin de Perceval’s “correction” was never accepted (maybe it wasn’t circulated enough?), and that is why April was not chosen.


 * Consequently, I think it safe to change the page to mention July, with no mention of April, as I will do so in a minute. CielProfond (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit as it is unsourced -- Wikipedia can never be used as a reliable source as anyone can edit it.

I will be happy to discuss this further but do not make any changes to the text until consensus is reached. AstroLynx (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Contemporary sources leave no doubt about the actual dates of events because they are in the form of a diary - a continuous record giving both the date and the day of the week.  This is what they have to say on the matter:
 * Sunday, 14 Muharram BH 52 (6 April 570) Abrahah al-Ashram Abu Yaksum enters Mecca with the Abyssinians and the elephant.
 * Monday, 12 Rabi'I BH 52 (2 June 570) Muhammad born.
 * Friday, 13 Rajab BH 21 (15 September 601) Ali born.
 * Friday, 20 Jumada II BH 17 (10 September 605) Fatima born.
 * Monday, 23 Ramadan BH 12 (14 December 610) First revelation.
 * Thursday, 26 Safar AH 1 (13 May 622) Quraysh conference.
 * Friday, 27 Safar AH 1 (14 May 622) Muhammad leaves his house.
 * Monday, 8 Rabi'I AH 1 (24 May 622) Muhammad reaches Quba'.
 * Friday, 12 Rabi'I AH 1 (28 May 622) Muhammad enters Medina.
 * Last Month AH 1 (AD 623) Ibn Sa'd says that 12 Ramadan AH 2 was 19 months after Muhammad's arrival in Medina on 12 Rabi'I AH 1.  In normal circumstances there are eighteen months between Rabi'I and Ramadan of the following year.   The only explanation for the discrepancy is that the intercalary month was placed between AH 1 and AH 2.
 * Tuesday, 15 Sha'ban AH 2 (15 November 623) Muhammad directs prayers to be said facing Mecca instead of al-Sham.
 * Friday, 17 Ramadan AH 2 (16 December 623) Battle of Badr.  As this date is not a Friday in the unintercalated calendar Zain and El-Wakil place it on an impossible date in AH 1.
 * Wednesday, 22 Ramadan AH 2 (21 December 623) Muhammad returns to Medina with booty.
 * Saturday, 7 Shawwal AH 3 (22 December 624) Battle of Uhud.
 * Sunday, 8 Shawwal AH 3 (23 December 624) March from Medina to Hamra'ul-Asad.
 * Wednesday, 11 Shawwal AH 3 (26 December 624) Return to Medina.
 * Tuesday, 5 Muharram AH 4 (19 March 625) Abdullah bin Unais leaves Medina.
 * Saturday, 23 Muharram AH 4 (6 April 625) Abdullah bin Unais returns with head of Khalid bin Sufiyan Al-Hudhali.
 * Monday, 5 Jumada I AH 4 (15 July 625) Covenant with Christians signed.
 * Friday, 3 Ramadan AH 5 (28 November 626) Covenant with the Jews signed.
 * Monday, 5 Shawwal AH 5 (29 December 626) Excavation of a trench around Medina begins.
 * Saturday, 10 Shawwal AH 5 (3 January 627) Trench completed after six days of digging.  Quraish arrive for a three-week siege.
 * Saturday, 1 Dhul-Qa'dah AH 5 (24 January 627) Jews refuse to fight on Saturday, tents blow away and campfires blow out. Quraish flee.
 * Tuesday, 1 Dhul-Qa'dah AH 6 (12 January 628) On a Monday at the beginning of Dhul-Qa'dah (Monday evening leading into the new month) Muhammad leaves Medina for Mecca.
 * Tuesday, 10 Ramadan AH 8 (31 October 629) Muhammad leaves Medina for Mecca.
 * Tuesday, 17 Ramadan AH 8 (7 November 629) Muhummad sends his army into Mecca.  He leaves Marr Az-Zahran.
 * Wednesday, 18 Ramadan AH 8 (8 November 629) Muhammad rides into Mecca on the second day of the occupation and then on to Safa.
 * Saturday, 6 Shawwal AH 8 (25 November 629) Muhammad leaves Mecca for Hunain on the nineteenth day of the occupation.
 * Wednesday, 10 Shawwal AH 8 (29 November 629) Battle of Hunain.
 * Last Month AH 8 (630) Ibrahim born.
 * Monday, 29 Shawwal AH 10 (27 January 632) Ibrahim dies at the age of one year, ten months and ten days.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.55.242.67 (talk) 10:10, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don’t really see how this settles the question…
 * CielProfond (talk) 00:06, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, that is reasonable. Would you consider Islamic Philosophy Online to be a good reference? Or the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies of the University of Zurich ? These (specially the second) look legit to me… CielProfond (talk) 03:52, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Either of both are fine as they are both based on a program developed by J. Thomann in 1996 but note that both online converters assume that a purely lunar calendar was also used before 10 AH and thus ignore the fact that the calendar probably was luni-solar before 10 AH. I am fine with the 15/16 July AD 622 date for the begin of the Islamic calendar but it should be clearly stated that that date is based on a reconstruction of the early Islamic calendar and, assuming that intercalation was performed before 10 AH, that an earlier date in April is also possible. AstroLynx (talk) 10:09, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Understood. I shall take this into consideration in my edit.
 * CielProfond (talk) 00:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

This article is about two distinct topics, maybe it should be split or renamed?
The article title says "Hijri year" but in reality it is mostly about Hijri era. Intending to put it back on topic, I drafted a (very) bold edit to completely replace the current lead "The Hijri year (سَنة هِجْريّة) is a year of twelve lunar months and thus has only 354 or 355 days in its year. (Consequently, its New Year's Day occurs ten days earlier in each solar year, relative to the Gregorian calendar reckoning.) Dates during the Hijri year are reckoned according to the lunar Hijri calendar; years are numbered within the Hijri era (التقويم الهجري at-taqwīm al-hijrī). This calendar era begins its count from the year in which Muhammad and his followers migrated from Mecca to Yathrib (now Medina). This event, known as the Hijrah, is commemorated in Islam for its role in the founding of the first Muslim community (ummah). In the West, this era is most commonly denoted as AH (Anno Hegirae, 'in the year of the Hijra') in parallel with the Christian/Common (AD/CE) and Jewish eras (AM) and can similarly be placed before or after the date. In predominantly Muslim countries, AH is also commonly abbreviated H ('Hijra') from its Arabic abbreviation hāʾ. Years prior to AH 1 are reckoned in English as BH ('Before the Hijrah'), which should follow the date.[1]" "The year 2024 CE corresponds to the Islamic years AH – ; AH 1444 corresponds to 2022 – 2023 in the Common Era." but on reflection, it seems that a far better solution would be to change the name of the article to Hijri era and tidy up. The actual Hijri year is documented at Hijri calendar months.

I have no plans to take my draft any further but I've put it here as I believe that it helps expose the issue more clearly and thus why the current set-up needs to be revisited.

See also List of Islamic years.

Comments? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:22, 4 April 2023 (UTC)