Talk:Himarë (town)

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I began the Himara/town page, because she deserves a page of her own.Beserks (talk) 11:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

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Lede
The adverb "predominantly" alone, in regards to the Greek community, already pertains to an Albanian minority. It doesn't say "exclusively" Greek community. Thus the new addition (Alongside the Albanian population,) was totally unnecessary per WP:MOSLEAD. Demetrios1993 (talk) 04:13, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Unless someone has some policy-based counterarguments, I am merging this to Himarë. There are 2 reasons: 1. This arricle, apart from a sentence on etymology, is a copy of Himarë 2. It is the only case where an Albanian town has 2 articles: one for itself alone and one for itself and its municipality. All the other Albanian cities/towns have a single article dedicated to both the city/town and its municipality. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:13, 23 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I oppose the merger. The Himare article covers a wide area, much wider than the town itself. There are individual articles for every village in the municipality, so it would be oddd not to have an article at all for the biggest settlement in the municipality. I will ask at for a recommendation at WP:CITIES. Khirurg (talk) 22:16, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I agree with Khirurg's comment. GeographicAccountant (talk) 22:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Every village of Albania has an article of it own, but no town/city has an article seperate from its the article of its own municipality. Why Himara should be treated in a different way? That is the question. Not to mention again, that this article is just a short copy of the municipality's article, Himarë. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:33, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * GeographicAccountant, so tell me. Why should Himarë be treated in a different way from every other town and city in Albania? Anything special? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:35, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, I've noticed this also, weird. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:20, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Pointless proposal since Himare article concerns a very wide region consisting of around 22 settlements. If there are problems with other Albanian cities that lack their own articles I suggest to solve those issues but merging settlement articles to much wider municipalities won't make things better (considering that after the 2014 reform the municpalities have been reduced to 64 it's weird to have a single article about the municipal capitals and their much wider municipalities).Alexikoua (talk) 02:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. I recall that on the Albanian-Epirote War of 1359, you | deleted the entire article and replaced it with a redirect under the following edit summary:
 * That case seems to be present on this article (Himarë (town)), which is seemingly a copy-paste of Himarë. How come you do not support a merge or redirect in this case? This article is a copy-paste. It should not exist. Botushali (talk) 03:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * *Support: If this article is essentially a copy of the Himarë article aside from a sentence in the etymology, then these articles should indeed be merged. I support @Ktrimi991's proposal to merge, as I am not familiar with when it was ruled two copy-paste articles are allowed to exist separately. Botushali (talk) 03:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: Hhmmm it's obviously not a copy of Himarë article: Himarë (town) concerns 1 settlement, while Himarë 22 and quite a wide region. Are you sure the articles on municipal capitals should be merged with the correspondent municipalities? I'm afraid you are definitely not familiar with the issue.Alexikoua (talk) 05:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand this one is supposed to focus on one settlement, but much of the content is the exact same as the other article. It would not harm the articles by merging them. Botushali (talk) 00:27, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you explain what makes this article (98k of text) exact the same to this article (6k of text)? A city in Albania that happens also to be a municipal capital deserves a separate article in consistency to the rest of the world.Alexikoua (talk) 03:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm afraid that #2 of the nom is wrong considering that not all Albanian cities/towns have a single article dedicated to both the city/town and its municipality. Some examples: Bilisht (municipal center of Devoll; a different article), Erseka (municipal center of Kolonjë).Alexikoua (talk) 03:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The difference between this and those is that both the town and Municipality have the same name in Himarë case. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, those towns/cities have only one article, because their municipalities have different names. In Himara's case, in 90% of cases it is impossible to tell if a RS is talking about the Himara town alone or the Himara municipality/region (especially when history is concerned). Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, those towns/cities have only one article, because their municipalities have different names. In Himara's case, in 90% of cases it is impossible to tell if a RS is talking about the Himara town alone or the Himara municipality/region (especially when history is concerned). Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support. The article Himarë (town) as it is now has very little content that is not already in Himarë, and town and municipality share the same name. Since Himarë is a rather big article, some of its content could be moved into subarticles, so a separate article about the town does have some potential. But not as it is now. Markussep Talk 08:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support, there is no need for any separation.
 * RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:04, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per arguments presented by @Markussep.Alltan (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * • Support: I agree with @Ktrimi991 Pointless to have two articles. HokutoKen (talk) 20:42, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment In its present form, the article is quite small, but it can be easily expanded. The length of the article is not a reason for merging. Rather, the question is, is this town sufficiently notable to have an article of its own. Khirurg (talk) 02:56, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Expand with what? In almost all cases it is impossible to tell if a source is referring to Himara town, Himara municipality or Himara region. Hence every Albanian town/city has a single article together with the municipality named after it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * History, geography, climate, landmarks, demographics, politics. You know, city stuff. Khirurg (talk) 20:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support I also support the claim of User:Ktrimi991 to merge the articles into one, for the reasons given.
 * Typical Albanian (talk) 13:05, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Given that no other municipalities in Albania have distinct articles, I find it superfluous for this particular small town or village to have one.
 * KleovoulosT (talk) 15:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No, that's your personal opinion because indeed there exist a settlement in Spile and old town. Please stop removing information about those settlements.

By the way why are you removing information about the historical and the modern town of Himara? [] Both the castle (locally known as Kastro which is also the place of the Chaonian foundation) and Spile are part of the town (the municipal & historical center of Himara). That kind of desperate blind removals clearly falls into wp:DISRUPTION. Alexikoua (talk) 20:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * If certain users keep trying to suppress the expansion of the article so as to influence the merge decision, I will be going to ANI and letting the community deal with it. Simple as. Khirurg (talk) 21:01, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that Ktrimi needs to explain why this top graded Phd dissertation is ...of low quality []. It's actually a top graded academic paper (Athens Polytechnic) on the settlement structure of the area & one of the most detailed accounts we have available. I suggest we make extensive use of it.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed Ktrimi is wrong on the claim Spilee and New Qeparo are not the only settlements built on the coast of the municipal unit of Himara. A view on googlemaps can easily confirm that those are the only coastal settlements (the rest: Vuno, Old Qeparo, Palasa, Dhermi, Ilias, Pilur, Kudhest are all located inland). Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Instead of adding nonsense to the article, make sure you understand that Himara qytet and Himara fshat are not the same settlement. Due to tourism some of the formerly non-coastal villages have reached the coast through expansion. And I am not the only one who rv the nonsense. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Nonsense? Oh please avoid making nonconstructive comments. The old town on the adjacent hill is still part of town: we have the new town (Splie) and the old one (Castle), like the case of Old and New Qeparo, like all settlements that their old town is still part of the town article. You need to read Triantos, but there is also lonelyplanet that clearly states. I can't understand this stubborn denial that the "old town" should be removed from the Himara town article.Alexikoua (talk) 21:25, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * To make it simple lonelyplanet reads:  I can't understand why information on the "old town" of the town article should be removed. It's actually the very core of the town and it's weird to claim that its irrelevant here. By the way why was also information about the 3 beaches directly linked to the modern town also removed? Alexikoua (talk) 21:31, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "Old town" and "new town"? What are you talking about? Even the only town in the region became a town in the 1960s. Lonely Planet is not a peer-reviewed academic source. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Spille is the village that became a town in the 1960s to serve as an administrative center. It got the name Himara because of its new role. The castle is not part of Spille; it was a fortified settlement that lost its importance to Vlora etc. They have always been 2 different settlements. Unlike New Qeparo that was formed as an expansion of Old Qeparo. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:11, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Spille is the new town (yes it was developed at that time) while the old town is located around the adjacent castle. That's very typical of towns that have old and new quarters and please avoid WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Even the official site of the municipality is clear on this (about Himara town) https://translate.google.com/?sl=sq&tl=en&text=%C3%8Bsht%C3%AB%20nj%C3%AB%20nd%C3%ABrthurje%20peizazhesh%20nga%20m%C3%AB%20interesantet.%20Rruga%20q%C3%AB%20%C3%A7on%20n%C3%AB%20qytez%C3%AB%20%C3%ABsht%C3%AB%20t%C3%ABr%C3%ABsisht%20malore.%20Nj%C3%AB%20pjes%C3%AB%20e%20mir%C3%AB%20e%20saj%20nuk%20ka%20asnj%C3%AB%20kontakt%20me%20detin%20dhe%20sa%20afrohesh%20n%C3%AB%20Himar%C3%AB%20rishfaqet%20s%C3%ABrish%20pamja%20e%20blus%C3%AB%20s%C3%AB%20Jonit.%0A%0APrezantimi%20i%20par%C3%AB%20%C3%ABsht%C3%AB%20me%20Himar%C3%ABn%20e%20vjet%C3%ABr%20dhe%20pas%20ashp%C3%ABrsis%C3%AB%20s%C3%AB%20relievit%2C%20ku%20nuk%20mungojn%C3%AB%20agrumet%20dhe%20ullinjt%C3%AB%2C%20zbret%20n%C3%AB%20qend%C3%ABr%20t%C3%AB%20saj.%20Gjithsesi%2C%20lasht%C3%ABsia%20e%20vendit%20identifikohet%20me%20pjes%C3%ABn%20e%20vjet%C3%ABr%20t%C3%AB%20qytetit%2C%20q%C3%AB%20shtrihet%20n%C3%AB%20kodr%C3%ABn%20n%C3%AB%20t%C3%AB%20djatht%C3%AB%20t%C3%AB%20qytetit%20ekzistues.%20Ruhen%20gjurm%C3%AB%20t%C3%AB%20mureve%20t%C3%AB%20kalas%C3%AB%20s%C3%AB%20vjet%C3%ABr%20q%C3%AB%20daton%20n%C3%AB%20shekujt%20IV-XVI%20dhe%20%C3%ABsht%C3%AB%20personifikim%20q%C3%ABndrese%20i%20banor%C3%ABve.%20Brenda%20mureve%20gjendet%20kisha%2C%20nj%C3%AB%20monument%20me%20vlera%20t%C3%AB%20ve%C3%A7anta.%0A%0APlazhi%20i%20Himar%C3%ABs%20%C3%ABsht%C3%AB%20nj%C3%AB%20tjet%C3%ABr%20pik%C3%AB%20ku%20mund%20t%C3%AB%20shijosh%20banjat%20e%20diellit%20n%C3%AB%20bregdetin%20e%20past%C3%ABr%2C%20zhytjet%20n%C3%AB%20blun%C3%AB%20e%20detit%2C%20apo%20edhe%20sh%C3%ABtitjet%20me%20varka.&op=translate:

The official site can also be used as reference. Don't remove information again about the old town please. It's part of the town's history in consistency to articles about settlements. Alexikoua (talk) 22:29, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Not only the website is not a peer-reviewed academic article (the dating of the castle for example is quite wrong as per your own sources), but it does say that the castle is not part of today's town but near it: Prezantimi i parë është me Himarën e vjetër dhe pas ashpërsisë së relievit, ku nuk mungojnë agrumet dhe ullinjtë, zbret në qendër të saj. Gjithsesi, lashtësia e vendit identifikohet me pjesën e vjetër të qytetit, që shtrihet në kodrën në të djathtë të qytetit ekzistues. If you want to add anything to the article, propose it in a section below. This section has already become messy and I will not respond again.Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It appears you are adding frivolous tags on top graded PHDs. It's sad you do that only on dissertations you personally dislike without even providing slightest explanation (and with wrong arguments [], if you don't like it there is RSN, but Triantis has published various academic papers on the subject he is fully wp:RS). By the way the quote above is simply self-refuting your extreme view that the Himara's "old town" should be not part of the Himara (town) article . Can you please translate this: Gjithsesi, lashtësia e vendit identifikohet me pjesën e vjetër të qytetit, që shtrihet në kodrën në të djathtë të qytetit ekzistues? []. It says something about an old town correct? That's the old town of Himara and it needs to be mentioned. Triantos also confirms the official site. Alexikoua (talk) 00:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Exactly there is the same hypocrisy again. So modern Pojan and Apollonia should have the same information on their articles ? Because i remember some months ago you were saying the contrary. Pojan is the continuity of Apollonia and is way closer than Old Himara(Castle) and New Himara(Spille). Is Apollonia part of Pojan or not? Should we even move the article name from apollonia to pojan just like Durrës article since its continuosly inhabited? It also has enough references from the medieval period under the name "Polina". Which option better suits your POV? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 10:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Good point RoyalHeritageAlb: as you name it the old town (Castle) needs definitely a place in the town article. So simple.Alexikoua (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Himarë fshat, as it is officially called. Its not part of the Himare town (which is also the center of the municipality). Informations about Himare Fshat does not belong in Himare town, by reciprocity not by "thats how i like it". Just like Pojan and Apollonia are currently separated. Unless... the admins and the majority agree that we should move the "Apollonia" article name into "Pojan" and and follow the same procedure as the Durrës article. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 16:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yet another good point RoyalHeritageAlb: Himara fshat translates to Himara village

[] (this is the English wikipedia). This is too obvious even by name. No wonder the official site of the municipality and scholarship (Triantos) also agree on that. The old town is definitely part of the very history of the town article. You are welcome to provide additional arguments but the case is far too clear.Alexikoua (talk) 18:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Which means: Himara Village =\= Himara Town. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 19:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No, that's your personal view and it's not supported. See also Kallivretakis p. 30: Himara: 1. FSHAT & SHEN MEHILL, 2. SPILE. The town has an old part and the modern one. It's very typical for Balkan settlements. As in the case of Qeparo the new town is located on the coast. Alexikoua (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually by checking sholarship there is a mountain of text, but I will limit myself to a very specialised volume dedicated to the geography of the country:
 * . Alexikoua (talk) 21:27, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * So also Livadh is part of Himara town? Since Livadh is the beach directly downhill of Himare Fshat. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 08:19, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's directly linked to the town.Alexikoua (talk) 20:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support Alexikoua's new additions are just rewording of some content found on Himarë, making the case for merger even stronger. In sources it is hard to tell in most cases if "Himarë" means the town, the old castle, the cultural region or the municipality. The history, politics, economy and culture of the Himara town and Himara region/municipality are basically identical. Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:56, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose If you take this at face value, one can argue that it should merge due to WP:OVERLAP. However, for example, comparing the Himarë article to other towns in the Vlorë County, the Himarë article is the only article that discusses the municipality at great length. Other articles exclusively discuss the town rather than the municipality itself. Given so, the Himarë article has been written in a manner that makes it its own discrete subject under WP:NOMERGE. ElderZamzam (talk) 06:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Merge or no merge is trivial in my opinion, and i also find the initial pro-merge argument concerning the duplicate negligible content, reasonable; however, i believe that Himarë (town) can exist as a standalone article, where the content that concerns the settlement can be presented in more detail. A couple of editors have expressed their willingness to expand the article, and have been working on it for some days now. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I was not convinced with arguments presented by the other side. 24.135.114.52 (talk) 14:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It is maybe relevant to know that this IPs first edit was a random article about Poland and then (2 minutes later) joined this discussion. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * AlexBachmann: the point here is the quality of the arguments not numerical majority of the one side. Since you are curious about the contribution of the ones that participate here: It also might relevant that this is HokutoKen's 2nd edit in 2023 and also Gaius Claudius Nero's 4rth edit (2 out of the total of 4 edits in 2023 concern participation in oppose/support procedures).Alexikoua (talk) 23:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The difference is that I didn't register just to vote against the merger. HokutoKen (talk) 11:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, account with ~10 contribs. Khirurg (talk) 15:04, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Does it bother you that account with 10 contribs has the same right to vote, like yours with 10k? HokutoKen (talk) 15:16, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support I didn't vote early just to see how possible expansion could work and even though ultimately it's a very minor issue which doesn't affect much, the new additions didn't add anything new which one way or another isn't already discussed in the article about the municipality. This is a key issue which affects almost articles about rural municipalities in the Balkans. Much more often than not, there is no real urban center in any of these municipalities and there's not much to write about the administrative center as a separate subject because it really just was where the locals went to deal with local gov or trade goods, hence it was an extension of the rural settlements. I think that per WP:PAGEDECIDE, the required context and broader information which concerns Himarë as a settlement is already discussed in the municipality article and the little which concerns Himarë itself can be discussed there. In itself, this doesn't exclude the possibility of re-creating a standalone article in the future.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make any sense. So according to this argument, every one of the (now mostly empty) villages should have its own article, but the main town where the bulk of the population lives should not? In the Himara article, you and several other users have added demographic statistics about places well outside of the traditional region of Himara, diluting the focus of that article. Thus, a separate article is definitely needed. This article has been expanded and will continue to be expanded over time, "recreating at a later date" simply doesn't make sense. Khirurg (talk) 15:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: if it is expanded with content specifically about the town, I think it would deserve to be a standalone article. – Βατο (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Most old and new content and sources often refer to the settlement and administrative division interchangeably thus having separate articles results in WP:CFORK, so per WP:NOPAGE it's better to have it merged with the article about the municipality. The fact that modern Himara itself is a new settlement as most people lived in the villages means that it doesn't yet have a separate history from the rest of them. In Albanian, there are multiple monographs by locals about most villages of the Himara region but for the settlement itself, there's little compared to villages like Dhërmi or Pilur.Lezhjani1444 (talk) 16:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The article contains plenty of material specific to the town itself. The fact that it's a relatively new settlement has no impact on whether it should have its own article. That is solely determined by notability, which the town clearly has plenty of. Khirurg (talk) 14:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Unless the article is expanded with content that does not concern parts outside the town (especially the old castle which is not part of the town per Karaiskaj and others), I do not see a reason to keep two Hiamrë articles. Truthseeker2006 (talk) 18:21, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Regardess of what is decided here, this article should not contain information on the old castle which is outside the town as per Karaiskaj and others. Truthseeker2006 (talk) 18:25, 2 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose If Labëria can have its own article despite having no official status, I fail to see why the ethnolinguistically and culturally distinct region of Himara cannot be treated accordingly. The town and the region are not identical. ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ (talk) 14:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no settlement called Labëria. Labëria is an ethnographic Albanian subregion, like Myzeqe, the Gjakova Highlands, Zadrima etc. You are comparing apples and oranges. Botushali (talk) 07:08, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Himara has a stronger claim to being an ethnographic region than any of the above. Not only is it ethnically distinct from neigbouring Albanian-populated areas, but also lingustically distinct from other Greek-populated areas of Northern Epirus. ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ (talk) 20:39, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You seem to misunderstand. There is no specific settlement called ‘Labëria’, ‘Myzeqe’, ‘Zadrima’ or the ‘Gjakova Highlands’, while Himara is a little town as well as a micro-region. Also, it does not have a bigger claim at all. All of the aforementioned ethnographic regions consist of dozens of villages each and vast expanses of land whereas Himara consists of a total of only 7 villages. Additionally, it is not that distinct from Albanian areas since most of the seven villages of Himara consist of a substantial/majority Albanian population; the villages of Himara are sometimes included as part of Labëria. It has the weakest claim to being an ethnographic region than any of the regions I listed. Botushali (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I fail to see why a notable historic and ethnolinguistic region as such should not have a distinct article. It only adds value to the project. Othon I (talk) 06:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Support as per nomination by Ktrimi991. I would like to highlight that many of the recent additions on the Himarë (town) have a resemblance to Himarë. It is redundant to have two separate articles on the subject. Iaof2017 (talk) 12:04, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not at all. Literally everything in the article is about the town itself, not the region. Khirurg (talk) 14:56, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Considering that lots of information here is not part of the Himare article (monuments, landmarks, architecture etc) it appears that most of the support votes had never read the article.Alexikoua (talk) 02:50, 5 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose The other side hasn't brought any convincing arguments whatsoever, as there are no obvious reasons as to why they shouldn't stand as two separate articles. Himarë (town) goes more in depth and clearly stands out from the municipality article.  Aleksandarstankov (talk • contribs) 01:21, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There are no sides on Wikipedia, unless there is something you want to confess? WP:BATTLE. Botushali (talk) 01:35, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The only WP:BATTLE I see is by you . Lots of reverts with aggressive edit-summaries. Khirurg (talk) 02:16, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Khirurg, enough with the hypocrisy. I wasn’t asking you a question. Botushali (talk) 02:51, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Botushali That's really rich coming from you. Aleksandarstankov (talk) 02:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose It is a standard practice in Wikipedia to give the towns their own articles, independently of any articles about the broader region and municipality, especially when the town in question is: 1) a notable settlement, 2) a large settlement 3) the settlement limits are differing to those of the region and/or municipal limits. 4) its not the sole settlement in the broader region sharing the same name (there are several other villages too). From this moment all these four (4) criteria are met, then Wikipedia has to strive to make sure that such towns maintain their own distinct articles for obvious encyclopedic reasons. I can't help but bring to the Merge Closure Volunteer/Admin's attention the fact that the pro-Merge arguments have thus-far failed to rebuke the very basic question here about the Merge: why a large town such as Himarë shouldn't be having its own article? Considering the Wikipedia's guidelines and the criteria above, this leaves me no other option but to vote Oppose. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 12:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It is not a large town at al, it is more like a village called town than a town actually. HokutoKen (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * HokutoKen: the question here is not if Himara town  is more like a village but if Himara town deserves its own article. But you have not addressed why a settlement with its history, monuments and sights should not have a place here.Alexikoua (talk) 13:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * , although criteria to distinguish a town from a village vary considerably in different parts of the world, in the Balkans where many small countries are located, (among them Albania where Himarë is located) the usual definition of a village is a settlement that barely has more than 2.000 residents, but certainly 100 residents or more. On the other hand, Himarë has more than double that pop figure - 5.500 residents (not counting summer residents which boost the seaside town's pop figures even more) and by no means may be considered a village. The article acknowledges that Himarë is a town, not village, and none of the editors disputed this information on the article before, and I refuse to go down your path of questioning this now just for the sake of the Merge.
 * Even if Himarë was truly a village as you claim, then still it would have the other criteria applicable for maintaining its own article, which I have mentioned in my previous post, and which seem to escape your attention, yet I strongly believe they are very important. Perhaps you are a new editor in the English Wikipedia, considering how few your edit contributions are right now, so if you allow me to inform you from my own 12 year-long experience as a member of the Wiki Project: the vast majority of settlement articles in Wikipedia are about villages and towns that are much smaller than Himarë itself; yet the reason every single of them are having their own distinct articles now is because they are based on these reasonable criteria I mentioned.
 * Had your arguments here about Himarë being a village been valid, and thus had we gone about merging thousands of hundreds of articles about villages across the Wiki Project into articles about regions, (just because we choose to deliberately ignore the criteria I mentioned above), then the damage to the Project's quality and goals would be of incalculable proportions and I don't even want to think about it. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 19:31, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It says clearly in the article that those 5.500 are from the civil registry, not actual residents. In 2011, the whole (old) municipality of 1 town and 7 villages, had 2.800 residents.
 * Anyway, i didn't say anything about articles should be merged because it is or not a village. You added that. I just answerd you question about Himara being (not) a large town.
 * I stand with @Ktrimi991 argument why the articles sholuld merge. HokutoKen (talk) 21:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know where you got your figures from, but in my voting comment above, I am simply reflecting on the provided source, which every editor can access on the article themselves. Allow me to quote the source in question: "Himarë/Himara area is populated by 11.257 residents among whom 5.418 people are said to reside in the town of Himarë/Himara". As you see, the sources contradict your statements which appear to be unverified, and I am finding myself unable to comment on them. First, you will have to provide sources to WP:VERIFY your statements, before any discussions may resume.


 * Indeed you didn't say anything about articles should be merged because it is or not a village, but it would be wrong to pretend that your (short) response to me wouldn't leave open room for interpretations considering that the heart of my comment is about criteria. As you can see, it was simply the natural outcome to read your response from that perspective. I appreciate that you made clear how you meant it.


 * However, I can see that my definition of "large town" may sound a bit off to some editors, but the reason I am defining it as such, is my careful way of distinguishing the smaller towns that are noticeably smaller than 5.500 residents, but not small enough to be considered merely villages. And I did that for a reason after all, to denote the safe margin between Himare's township and villages because I was expecting responses and comments such as yours. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 22:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Those are data from Civil Registry not actual residents. You can watch other sources here. HokutoKen (talk) 10:24, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Another one here HokutoKen (talk) 10:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * While I appreciate your time in responding to me, I can't shake the feeling that your responses are off-topic: you responded to me arguing about Himarë being a village, not a town, but the sources you pointed to, are more about the municipality's population, not the town's. At least I had the courtesy to mention a source that explains both municipality/town pop figures: "Himarë/Himara area is populated by 11.257 residents among whom 5.418 people are said to reside in the town of Himarë/Himara"".
 * Now, if you excuse me, I won't reply further to this discussion since the topic isn't municipalities, but the town which is the present article's topic and I believe I have made my points quite clear on this regard, haven't I? Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 12:12, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no need for more discussion for this topic indeed.
 * The sources show clearly that those are from Albanian Civil Registry, not actual residents. 1 2 3
 * And the whole former municipally has 2800 residents. Let a lone the town. HokutoKen (talk) 14:02, 13 July 2023 (UTC)