Talk:Hindu Janajagruti Samiti/Archive 2

What is wrong?
(1)The revert has resulted in removal useful information, wholesale reversal isn't the solution to minor issues, I don't understand the objections to The HJS complained to the police against the exhibition of three nude representations of Hindu deities Krishna and Shiva drawn by Jose Pereira, in an exhibition at the Xavier Centre of Historical Research a Jesuit centre in Goa. The HJS claimed that the "Christian artist has drawn derogatory paintings of the Hindu deities", it demanded the withdrawal of these paintings. After the three paintings were withdrawn the HJS "scaled up its demands" calling for closing of the entire exhibition. According to Deccan Herald no reason was given for this demand. The exhibition was subsequently "temporarily suspended". It describes the incident as a manifestation of "venomous right-wing propaganda" I've removed pronouns and replaced them by the nouns, if the pronouns are confusing, if that is what was wanted? What is confusing? Isn't it clear that the HJS was bugged by nudes, drawn by a Christian and hosted by a Christian centre. After the nudes were withdrawn the HJS "upped" their demands and succeeded in having the exhibition scrapped. What other meaning is read from the above?

(2) Other protests in 2011-2012 have focused on matters such as advertising that the HJS considers to be vulgar,[8] the promotion of LGBT tourism in Goa,[9] and decisions made in Russia that were perceived to be anti-Hindu.[10] Aren't these meaningless summaries? What is the purpose of making them so concise as to make them misleading? "Advertising that HJS considers vulgar..." the issue was specific they were unhappy with the graphic depictions of women used as sex objects, that led to increased violence, the other statements similarly brief enough to mis-inform

(3)The edit summary "Khandke screw-ups" isn't the best way edits can be described. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 23:36, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've finished explaining in the section above. I agree that "screw-ups" is probably not the best of phrasing and apologise for that. Like many people, I get a bit frustrated with your style from time to time. Most of the time, probably! - Sitush (talk) 23:40, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * About Hussain:"The same organisation had started a sustained campaign against him for being “anti-Hindu” and sued the painter for some of his paintings of Hindu gods and goddesses. In its letter, the HJS urged the organisers not to pay tributes to the painter." if it doesn't mean HJS sued Hussain what does it mean? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 23:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Dharma: If that is the rule, it be provided, I've no arguments
 * Quotations misleading, well the "upped demands" quotation can be removed by paraphrasing, I agree two quotations makes it confusing regarding the source quoted.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 23:50, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Changes incorporated: I think every objection has been attended to, (except Marathi translation, which will be provided.) Yogesh Khandke (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * WP:MOSQUOTE prefers that links are not there and provides a couple of ways around the problem. There is a less clumsy option available and I was considering it before I returned home a few minutes ago. The HJS website mentions the dharma point somewhere as being a part of its overall objective, so we can include a preceding sentence that refers to that and links to the topic. I'll do it tomorrow - really must get to bed. - Sitush (talk) 00:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

August 2012
The sentence Other protests in 2011-2012 have focused on matters such as advertising that the HJS considers to be vulgar,[8] the promotion of LGBT tourism in Goa,[9] and decisions made in Russia that were perceived to be anti-Hindu can be re-phrased I guess. YK's version was lot better which said ''"Ranaragini" a wing of the HJS, in a protest in Goa, demanded that advertisement hoardings that "portray women in a vulgar and indecent manner" be taken off. It claimed that violence against women was related to their depiction in such hoardings as "sex objects";[8] Opposition from HJS along with Divya Jagruthi Pratishthan and the Shiv Sena and a Christian organisation caused a session on LGBT tourism in Goa to be dropped from a tourism fair there.[9] It presented a memorandum to Goa office of the Russian consul urging the Russian government to revoke a demolition order issued against the largest Hindu temple and Vedic centre in Russia.[10]'' --sarvajna (talk) 11:31, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 1: They demanded that the vulgar advertisments should be removed no formal protest as per the source
 * 2: They planned for agitation if the government went ahead with the LGBT session but the session was cancelled so cannot call it a protest
 * 3: They submited a memorandum to the russian consul regarding various decisions of Russian govt, a better word can be used instead of protest.

My revert
I've just done a huge revert of work by. I'll explain piece by piece, given a few minutes to do so. - Sitush (talk) 23:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * YK's lead said "Hindu Janajagruti Samiti (HJS) is a Hindu organization[1][2] operating globally established on 13 October 2002 by seekers of Sanatan Sanstha. The organization claims that it "stands as a common platform for all Hindus to unite breaking all the barriers" and its website carries the slogan "For establishment of the Hindu Nation".[3] Christophe Jaffrelot, a political scientist, considers the HJS to be an offshoot of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh.[4] The HJS, whose name has been translated as Committee for Hindu Renaissance,[4] has been described as a right-wing group and has protested numerous issues. Reporting a HJS protest the Deccan Herald described it as an "obscure ... small band of fanatics".[5]"


 * We do not usually give weight to opinions in lead sections. It can be difficult enough dealing with WP:DUE in the body of the article. - Sitush (talk) 23:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * YK then swapped a source round, preferring the relatively poor Deccan Herald over the (still not great) Times of India. This produces "The HJS complained to the police against the exhibition of three nude representations of Hindu deities Krishna and Shiva drawn by Jose Pereira, in an exhibition at the Xavier Centre of Historical Research a Jesuit centre in Goa. The HJS claimed that the "Christian artist has drawn derogatory paintings of the Hindu deities", it demanded the withdrawal of these paintings. After they were withdrawn it "scaled up its demands" calling for closing of the entire exhibition. According to Deccan Herald no reason was given for this demand. The exhibition was subsequently "temporarily suspended". It describes the incident as a manifestation of "venomous right-wing propaganda".[5]"


 * It is excessive and confusing quotations which mix quoted phrases of the newspaper with phrases quoted by the newspaper. YK, you have a habit of excessive and confusing quotations. Please can you think about it. Eg: you have mixed the HJS "Christian artist" quote with the "scaled up" one by the paper - it is messy and unnecessary. - Sitush (talk) 23:17, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There was useful additional info in YK's work regarding M. F. Husain but it contains a factual error. YK's version says, inter alia, "In 2011 HJS's protests resulted in postponing screening of a film tribute to M. F. Husain the late painter whom the organisation had earlier sued for his allegedly anti-Hindu depictions of Hindu deities.[6]"


 * The news item refers to HJS memoranda regarding court cases but does not appear to say that the HJS sued him or anyone else. A memorandum might merely be discussing the feasibility of court action. Or have I misread it? - Sitush (talk) 23:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * While I agree that the article should be "sectioned" as and when there is sufficient content to justify it, the heading "Various protests" is unnecessary. "Campaigns" or "Protests" would suffice. Their own website refers to them as the former. - Sitush (talk) 23:26, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * YK says ""Ranaragini" a wing of the HJS, in a protest in Goa, demanded that advertisement hoardings that "portray women in a vulgar and indecent manner" be taken off. It claimed that violence against women was related to their depiction in such hoardings as "sex objects";[8] Opposition from HJS along with Divya Jagruthi Pratishthan and the Shiv Sena and a Christian organisation caused a session on LGBT tourism in Goa to be dropped from a tourism fair there.[9] It presented a memorandum to Goa office of the Russian consul urging the Russian government to revoke a demolition order issued against the largest Hindu temple and Vedic centre in Russia.[10]"


 * I can live with this. Indeed, I thought about something similar at the time of my editing but decided that it was excessive detail. - Sitush (talk) 23:28, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * YK says "In June 2012, the HJS arranged the five-day All-India Hindu Convention at Ponda, Goa. This attracted attendance from a range of individuals and activists representing various groups and, according to its chief organiser, was intended to "... chalk out a blue print for the protection of dharma and establishment of a Hindu Nation".[11]"


 * You've been around for a while now, YK. Words etc in quotations should not be linked. Believe me, I find that frustrating sometimes but there is always a way round it. - Sitush (talk) 23:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * YK says that "Lokmat reports a demand made by HJS that those involved in vandalism in Mumbai on 11 August 2012 be booked under Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act, vandalism occurred during protests organised by the Raza Academy, during which members of Sunni Jamaitul Ulma and Jamate Raza-e-Mustafa were also present.[12][13] The Samiti's co-ordinator is quoted by Indo-Asian News Service urging the state government that considering the earlier violent record of the Raza Academy such as "burning policemen alive in Bhivandi" and violent protests against "Denmark" it sent a recommendation to the central government that the organisation be banned.[14]"


 * Could the original have been better? Probably, given time to research. But I removed a Marathi source per WP:NOENG and the statements reliant upon it have been reinserted without regard to that guidance. Indeed, per YK's edit summary, in flat-out denial of it. You'll have to provide a translation, for example, and we only use non-English sources if there is no English equivalent. This issue has been mentioned to you in the past (I am not digging around for it - we have an extensive history). Bearing in mind that there has apparently been a government reaction to this stuff (per your query at WP:RSN), the prior version was satisfactory as an explanation in a situation where you, I and anyone else who is interested are already aware that there will be further developments to be incorporated into the article. - Sitush (talk) 23:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Translation if it is requested? It could have been tagged translation required and not just deleted? Tag and it will be provided. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 23:44, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You already knew the deal as your edit summary indicated that you had read mine (plus, of course, the past contributions I refer to). In any event, there will be an English equivalent. I found one that went most of the way. If you want to keep using Marathi sources when such equivalents (or as near as dammit equivalents) exist then I do believe that there is a Marathi Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 23:49, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Would compliance to NOENG regarding translations ensure inclusion? What is the ratio of English to non-English sources used in all edits to date, to warrant such a blatant personal attack? The block to the HJS site is unrelated to the statement discussed. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 23:54, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (1) Not if there is an English equivalent that adequately covers the issue. (2) No idea - I do not keep track but, as I say, there is a history of this. If you think that my comment regarding it is a "blatant personal attack" then you know where to go. (3) The block is directly related: that you cannot see this may well be an unfortunate consequence of your location - the GoI has been blocking sites relating to the agitation connected to the disturbances for several days now. - Sitush (talk) 00:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

A Marathi source is used for events related to the area where it is spoken, the incidents have happened in the state capital, Marathi being the language of the state. How are we as editors concerned with blocks? Blocks or bans make a subject more notable is all I say, check the sand box created for compliance to suggestions. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 00:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I am having another spell of being unwell and it seems unlikely that I'll be able to progress these issues much for the next few days. You are going to have to do what you think is acceptable, although I really would prefer that you avoid non-English sources. This is in part because there is clearly adequate coverage without recourse to them and also because - given your past problems regarding interpretation etc - you are probably not in a "good faith" position to translate them in accordance with WP:NOENG. The HJS website mentions that it has been blocked in India from around 20 August, along with some sort of Facebook mirror, because of the government's belief that it was fuelling problems vis-a-vis Assam violence etc. Other than that source - which is not reliable for the statement - I have been unable to find any mention of the blocking of HJS site specifically in reliable sources, probably because there are so many that have been affected. The reports are numerous but generalised, and they are tending to focus on how Facebook & Google are collaborating to some degree with the GoI. However, HJS have announced that they plan "agitation" against the block and doubtless this will be reported if it happens. You might be able to use a screenshot of the block notice as a source but I am not brilliant with image-related stuff and you'd need to clarify this with people who are. BTW, I've noticed some socio-political campaigns that might be worthy of mention in order to balance the pure pro-Hindu advocacy stuff, eg: support for Anna Hazare's bandwagon and some sort of issue with the use of plastic flags on Republic Day. I've no idea yet if these are driven by the HJS anti-government stance (very broadly speaking, connections can be made along the lines of HJS = RSS = BJP = anti-GoI) or if they are long-term, genuine political viewpoints etc. - Sitush (talk) 05:48, 23 August 2012 (UTC)