Talk:Hip hop feminism

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Duponts2, Newpaltz, Mtcandy101, DeNisha, Fettibobo, Hommelc1, Coach Ant, Baeze1, Nicolette321, Kainarivera, Winzign1, Brandontolliver32, Hannahrosebuc, Kayla Brill, Chelseagirll, Blkqueermagic, Sophieemariee, Kailey strafford, Chapimichelle, Agentfoxyj, DaniDNP, Isabrach, Canea2016, 5leone5, AngelLeger, Charjohns054. Peer reviewers: Justineveras, Martem3.

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Suggestions for Expansion
I do not think “traditional feminist” is the appropriate term. In this context “traditional feminist” means the liberal feminists of the 1960's and 1970's. The tension between Black feminism and this feminism is relevant so it should be part of this article but it is covered in depth on the Black feminism page. The lead could end after the first sentence and some of the information that comes after could be moved to a new subsection on History. This History section could include Morgan's book as well as hip hop feminism's relationship with Black feminism and other contemporary feminist movement. The intersectionality paragraph could be also cleaned up by providing a link to the wiki page or could be centered more on how it specifically relates to hip hop feminism (as opposed to other feminisms). This article also only covers hip hop as a musical form but if you look at the hip hop wiki page you can see there are other forms of hip hop and these are relevant to hip hop feminism (graffiti for sure, including people like Lady Pink). This statement “As many women and men involved in hip hop culture are not white, they will have a different way of viewing the world; a desire for intersectional change in the spheres of how both women and non-white people are treated in America.” does not seem neutral to me and seems too broad of a statement. Maybe that is the HOPE of hip hop feminism but I do not think the hip hop community, as a whole, has a “desire for intersectional change.” This is a new article on a big topic so it makes sense it is a little disjointed and needs work. Aeafournier (talk) 00:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I plan on adding some more things about the presence of queerness in hip hop. There is only a brief mention, which is a good start, but that is not where it should end. There is a lot to say about gender, but not so much sexuality and not so much in how gender and sexuality may or may not relate to each other. I have three sources that I plan to include on gender and sexuality in hip hop. They include: Aja Johnson's "Keep It Coochie", Bettina Love's "A Ratchet Lens...", and Ryan Harris' "What Is Meant To Be, Will Be" to support my claims. Albergab1 (talk) 01:17, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

I think the lead paragraph could use some refinement and expansion. It does not paint a clear picture of what hip hop feminism is and is almost too brief, anyone have suggestions on how to improve it?Nicolette321 (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

for the article, i mainly summarized parts that were many qoutes/shorten the lead section so it was shorten and didn't repeat itself/something on another article. for instance, i shorten the definition from morgan's book + expanded on section on lindsey's "let me blow your mind". i also plan to remove some stuff that isn't from scholarly sources, like parts from popular online sources (i.e. billboard, root, etc.). I plan to add a few more sections on Michael P. Jefferies's "Hip Hop Feminism and Failure" makes an intervention in hip hop feminism" and Gwendolyn Plough's"My Cipher Keeps Movin' Like a Rolling Stone: Black Women's Expressive Cultures and Black Feminist Legacies" of Check It Wreck It: Black Womanhood, Hip Hop Culture, and the Public Sphere. also, i shorten some on morgan's article, added some things about literature/hip hop and added some things about transnational hip hop culture.Rone Bee (talk) 17:26, 21 October 2020 (UTC)Rone Bee

Music Video
The section titled "Hip Hop Feminism and Music Videos" is misguiding and should have an alternative title. This information does not coincide with what is displayed in the title. Instead, have a section displaying how women empower themselves in their music videos. This section talks about the problems that some may have with how women are portrayed in mainstream hip hop music videos.

There should be more information on the imagery in music videos and information siting specific music videos. More information breaking down how music videos are analyzed in a hip-hop feminist perspective. Kailey strafford (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Article Structure
I think it would be helpful if we could sum the first part of the page into a quick teaser -- something that answers the natural question "What is feminist Hip-hop?" The rest of the information could be folded into other sections or made into its own sections such as "origin" or "early creation".

Heads Up
I'm going to proceed to make a few edits on this page as a result of the new decision to merge Feminist activism in hip hop. Any help would be appreciated. Dvalentine (talk) 22:15, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

"Not to be confused with" is confusing
"Hip-hop feminism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Not to be confused with Hip hop feminism." but when you click the link you are redirected to this very article. Is this some kind of joke I don't get? --77.186.183.3 (talk) 12:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Some suggestions, et cetera
I wish there would've been at least one mention of Kimberlé Crenshaw, specifically when it came to defining intersectionality, because she was the one who coined the term. There could've been more on the lgbtq+ community's critical-ness to hip hop. Everything flowed well, chronologically. However, there could have been a bit more on feminism and hip hop because a lot of things have happened since 2015. Albergab1 (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Evaluation
I think that most of the article relates to hip-hop feminism. I think the idea of Queen Latifah not associating herself as a feminist because it seems "too white" should be in its own section instead of being in the introduction on what hip-hop feminism is about.

The article seems neutral, it explains what it is and the main points of it. It discusses how some women embrace it while others do not because feminism is not a word that they would associate with themselves because of judgement.

Kayla Brill (talk) 06:07, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Themes
Our Crew, Gold Hoops, will be adding a section that talks about some of the themes in Hip Hop where feminism is expressed, such as Djing, Breakdancing, Beatboxing, and Grafitti.

Duponts2 (talk) 16:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)duponts2

New Section
I added a section entitled "Influencers in hip hop feminism." The section will highlight the contributions of multiple scholars to hip-hop feminism. Hannahrosebuc (talk) 03:09, 4 May 2018 (UTC) I'm going to add a section called Celebrity scholars. This section will talk about celebrities and their relation to hip hop feminism using sources from credible blogs and articles.(AngelLeger (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2018 (UTC))

New Section: Queerness in Hip Hop
I added a paragraph to this section about Las Krudas and how they contribute to queer activism in Hip Hop Draft: Although homophobia is a significant part of Hip Hop, people within this music industry are doing what they can to combat that and instead being advocates for the queer community within Hip Hop. One particular group in Hip Hop is Cuban collective Las Krudas. Made up of Odalys Cuesta-Rousseaux, Odaymara Cuesta-Rousseaux and Olivia Prendes-Priverón. These women show society that they aren't afraid to push buttons and act not according to gender roles expected of them. Being women that don't look like "traditional females" in society, they are breaking boundaries and leading the way for other people to do what they love whether it's getting involved with Hip Hop or not. We see with Las Krudas, that empowerment we feel within our bodies is so important to how the world views us and how our actions affect other people. Because the women in Las Krudas appear comfortable in their own skin and confident doing what they do (which is breaking boundaries), this advocates for other people in the queer community to not be afraid to be themselves and get out their and accomplish their goals. Las Krudas encourages queer women and queer people alike to not let patriarchal systems and discrimination hold them back from doing what they love. Especially in Hip Hop, you think of women as the video girl or the side chick but really, women have so much more potential than that and society needs to recognize that image isn't the only image available for a woman in Hip Hop -added https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/hawksites.newpaltz.edu/dist/7/2246/files/2018/01/Rivera-Vela%CC%81zquez_Las-Krudas-1z3aj23.pdf as a hyperlink to the phrase "Las Krudas" Sophieemariee (talk) 04:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

sophie: i might switch "doing what they can" to "taking action". would use a different tense aside from "we". Maybe hyperlink the activism page where you mention advocacy? Otherwise looks great ! Nicolette321 (talk) 04:53, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

explain homophobia in hip hop--leads to queer resistance and exposure to queer representation which leads to queer activism within hip hop. homophobia: -heterosexual/normative narrative domination -homophobic attitudes; lyrical outting and dissing of queerness. -reaffitmation of masculinity I will explain how pervasive homophobia is to uphold ideas and expectations of masculinity within a heterosexual standard. I explain how this leaves little room for queerness in hip hop and why this leads to resistance of normative narratives. Nicolette321 (talk) 03:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC) Draft: Heteronormativity is enforced in everyday social settings and can be observed in the hip hop arena. Patriarchal masculinity adheres to expectations of heterosexuality. In mainstream hip hop, the reinforcement of masculinity and adherence to heterosexuality manifests itself in the form of homophobia, particularly in the mainstream. Blye Frank points out that gender obedience in coherence with heterosexuality and masculinity is a social product which is embedded in people's everyday lives. Frank claims that part of this gender obedience is expressed in the form of competition among men, which then often appears in the form of homophobia, discrimination and violence against men [1]. The idea of gender obedience and adherence to masculinity which then produces homophobia, presented by Frank, can be identified in hip hop as a reoccurring theme. The use of homophobia in hip hop is then used as a tool to emphasize one's own masculinity and power. Terence Kumpf [2]claims that gender and sex norms are recreated and reinforced in mainstream rap, while mainstream rap also uses homophobic and transphobic attitudes and lyrics to sell records. Lamont Hill describes lyrical outting as a practice in hip hop that promotes homophobia. Lyrical putting is a practice where MC's 'attack' another artist who is not queer or not openly queer, yet 'out' them by calling them gay or exposing them through the lyrics of a song or rap [3]. The use of lyrical outting assumes queerness as a negative attribute for a person participating in the hip hop arena because of the pervasive expectations of upholding masculinity and heterosexuality. In addition to the way that lyrical outting maintains the mainstream narrative of heterosexuality in hip hop; Lamont Hill also claims that it is proof that queer identities do not comfortably fit into the hip hop world [3]. Aside from homophobic attitudes, mainstream hip hop has had a primarily (and universal) heterosexual narrative as the messages portrayed in hip hop are often told from a heterosexual man's perspective. The domination of homophobic and heterosexual attitudes in hip hop which are still very much intact have resulted in resistance against these narratives by LGBTQ+ people who choose to participate in hip hop. These narratives have been replaced by LGBTQ+ hip hop artists that seek to empower queerness rather than shame it.

Justine's Draft The homophobia in Hip-Hop is situated in the larger world as well and therefore, homophobia is not exclusive to Hip-Hop and is a reflection of the larger society. While homophobia in Hip-Hop exists, there is also queer representation in Hip-Hop and many Hip-Hop artists do fall under the LGBTQ+ spectrum. Artists such as Frank Ocean, Tyler, the Creator, Syd, Young M.A, and Kevin Abstract are Hip-Hop artists that are bringing queer identity to the forefront of popular music.

Tyler, the Creator is a contradictory representation of both homophobia and queerness in Hip-Hop. There has been controversy surrounding his sexuality because he has been largely accused of aggressive homophobia in his previous lyrics. In one particular lyric to a song released in 2009, he raps, "come take a stab at it faggot, I pre-ordered your casket." However, he published a tweet in 2015 referencing coming out of the closet and later on in the 2017 album Flower Boy he has explicitly homosexual lyrics rapping, "I been kissing white boys since 2004" in the track 'I Ain't Got Time.' This change from explicit homophobia to an admission of sexuality shows the complex nature of queer identity in Hip-Hop. Tyler also released Pride merchandise in his GOLF clothing line in 2015. Along with the release of the merchandise, he released a photo of him and another man holding hands wearing the Pride T-shirts on his Tumblr blog.

Frank Ocean is an R&B artist well known in the Hip-Hop world as a collaborator and public figure and is affiliated with Odd Future along with Tyler, the Creator. Ocean's bisexual identity is one that he both subtly and not-so-subtly discusses through his music. In a July 2012 emotional letter posted as a tumblr screenshot on his blog, he reveals that he was involved in a relationship with a boy, which was well received by the larger Hip-Hop community In his 2017 song "Chanel" he points towards his bisexuality in the following lines: "My guy pretty like a girl, and he got fight stories to tell. I see both sides like Chanel." Through these lyrics he is able to convey the image of men that are able to be pretty and feminine like girls, while also still holding what is considered traditionally aggressive masculine traits such as fighting. He conveys a subtle gender queerness that is not often talked about in Hip-Hop culture and challenges the hypermasculinity in Hip-Hop. These lines also further show his homosexuality and interest in men by claiming the guy he's talking about as his, using the metaphor of the Chanel symbol to discuss the duality in gender expression as well as his bisexuality. Aside from his own lyrics claiming his sexuality, Ocean has openly supported the LGBTQ+ community as well, singing: "I believe that marriage isn’t between a man and woman but between love and love" in his 2011 song "We All Try."Justineveras (talk) 04:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Justine: This is really great and detailed. I like how you go from the beginning of tyler career up until this point. Can't really think of much to change, maybe add why it is significant that he is performing his queer sexuality as a mainstream rapper? Although thats already inferred so i'm not sure that its necessary to even add that. Nicolette321 (talk) 05:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Jump up ^ Frank, Blye (Autumn, 1987). "Hegemonic Heterosexual Masculinity". Studies in Political Economy. 24: 159–170 – via spe.library.utoronto.ca. Check date values in: |date= (help) Jump up ^ Kumpf, Terence (2016-05). "From Queering to Trans*imagining". TSQ: Transgender Studies Quarterly. 3 (1-2): 175–184. doi:10.1215/23289252-3334355. ISSN 2328-9252. Check date values in: |date= (help) ^ Jump up to: a b Marc Lamont Hill (2009): Scared Straight: Hip-Hop, Outing, and the Pedagogy of Queerness, Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies, 31:1, 29-54 http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/10714410802629235 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicolette321 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 16 May 2018 (UTC) Nicolette321 (talk) 04:02, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Changes to be Made
I will be making the overview of this page more concise and will also be making a Hip Hop History section to place some of the information under. I am doing this for one of my classes in college, Gender and Sexuality in Hip Hop. Kailey strafford (talk) 16:26, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to add an influencers in hip hop feminism section where i'll be including artists such as cardi b, nicki minaj, princess nokia — Preceding unsigned comment added by AngelLeger (talk • contribs) 19:06, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I think this is a goos idea, I also think you should include graffiti artist. Dont forget hip hop is not only rapping or Mcing. Including graffiti artist like lady pink will make the history of Hip Hop feminism stronger. Martem3 (talk) 22:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I was going to add lady pink but she doesnt acknowledge her work as feminism at all (AngelLeger (talk))

Beyoncé Knowles-Carter, as an artist, has questioned many limits to define and create new ideals of pop culture. Her rise as an artist in the hip hop/ pop industry has given the answer to critics regarding her feminism or even her race in the industry. This chapter argues that Beyoncé is much more than her star image displayed on the media. This chapter focuses on Beyoncé's visual album named Lemonade, which focuses on a relationship married by infidelity. Aside from that, Lemonade focuses on how it engages with the Black Lives Matter movement, along with its celebration of black women and sexuality. Beyoncé also stands for feminism, pre-Lemonade during her 2016 VMA performance she samples an excerpt of Adichie’s speech about feminism. Macrossan, Phoebe. “Intimacy, Authenticity and ‘Worlding’ in Beyoncé’s Star Project.” Popular Music, Stars and Stardom, edited by Stephen Loy et al., ANU Press, Australia, 2018, pp. 137–152. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv301dk8.12. Thatssorayven (talk) 23:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)thatssorayven

Soical Change
I will like to add more artist that has to contribute to the social change within the hip-hop industry. This will include Cardi B, Princess Nokia, which uses their music to project their voices and others about actual events. They also are not afraid to be seen as out of the norm. I plan on finding some scholarly journals that speak about these artists. This is for a class projected.

Martem3 (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

This is what I have to add so far into the Social change section. I'm speaking about Missy Elliot a little bit more.

Missy Elliotts Women are relatively sexualized in many ways in hip-hop. After Missy Elliot lost weight she did not try to change her style, instead, she made sure that in her music video the dancing was highlighted and the cameras focus on her face. Her strength comes from seeing her mother. She worships her mother and the way she was able to get out of an abusive relationship. She uses her life experience to motivate others and be a strong feminist in the hip-hop world. Missy Elliot and Nicki Minaj both challenges the stereotypical Black women that are portrayed and sexualized in the media. They both use their fashion to make a statement.

Martem3 (talk) 20:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Sections on artists and scholars
I've removed this section for several reasons, which I'm detailing here.

The first is that this section was written in a very positive, praising tone, so it wasn't very neutrally written. Point of view statements such as declaring Cardi B a "hero who is vocal about women's right and supporting women's choices" and that she "constantly breaks barriers and shares her opinions using platforms such as instagram, and Snapchat" were included without attribution and represented in Wikipedia's voice, as if it was an absolute truth. The issue here is that the only time something like this should be put in Wikipedia's voice is when it's something that is so widely seen to be true that it's held by the majority of people and especially authorities on the topic. It's rare for there to be a widely held stance on an individual person when it comes to how they're perceived, especially when it comes to the world of feminism. Even among the authorities on the topic there are many different opinions on who is considered to be an authority, who is considered to be very influential or a good example of a feminist or feminist actions, and similar, so anything like this should be attributed to the person making the claim. However even then, opinions need to be written so that they aren't put in a very positive manner.

The second is that the sourcing for this section was fairly weak. Most of the sources were things like popular press stories about a latest video or primary sources. These should not be taken as evidence that someone is a prominent person in the field of hip-hop feminism or feminism in general. A section of this nature is meant to cover hip-hop feminism as far as performers and celebrities go. They don't necessarily need to write papers in journals, but there should be quite a bit of academic and scholarly coverage of their actions that specifically views them as part of hip-hop feminism. I specify the type of feminism since being a feminist and being part of the hip-hop world shouldn't be seen as evidence that someone is a hip-hop feminist. Basically, us saying that a hip-hop artist that identifies as a feminist is a hip-hop feminist is original research without some sourcing that would put them in this realm. We can't guarantee that their views on feminism would have "hip-hop sensibilities" (per the definition for this type of feminism) - it may be that it brushes against this realm without actually being a part of it. This may sound a little pedantic, but we really do have to be just that careful. There are other variations of this, so the sourcing really is important. The amount of sourcing is also important. If we only have one source that covers the artist then that's not really enough coverage to justify covering them in a heavy amount of detail.

Finally, a section like this should be more than just a listing of people and justifications as to why they should be considered part of this. It should cover the performers' stances on the topic, how this has changed over time, and so on. To be honest, this is something that should more be part of an overall history section akin to how the feminism article is set up. The article should focus less on specific people and more on the general themes, beliefs, and how this type of feminism was created, grew, and has adapted over time.

The scholars section poses a very similar issue, since it uses primary sources to justify listing them. This also poses issues of weight and original research. Without independent, secondary coverage we can't really justify listing them under the scholars section. Something like this should only list the people who are very, very notable and integral to the creation and exploration of hip-hop feminism. Just being a scholar in the field and putting out research isn't enough. This isn't to say that their research can't be included in the article, but it should be more worked into the article as parts of types, themes, ideologies, and similar sections to what is seen in the feminism article. I've removed this as well. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  16:46, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

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