Talk:Hiram Monserrate/Archive 1

Identification as a Democrat
As of March 2009, Monserrate's main identification is state senator of a district in Queens. The fact that he is a Democrat should appear in the article, mindful of its due weight. If he holds a leadership position in the county or state Democratic party, that could be mentioned as well. patsw (talk) 01:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Importance
I have removed the high importance tag. As of 2009-03-23, Monserrate is indicted and not convicted. If there's a reason for marking it high importance, let's discuss that. patsw (talk) 01:41, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

His companion initially made statements to hospital staff

 * His companion initially made statements to hospital staff and the police which led to his arrest. She later changed her account to match that of Monserrate namely that the cuts on her face near her left eye from a broken glass were an accident and she is no longer cooperating with the investigation.



If this needs to be removed or modified, please explain. patsw (talk) 02:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources have discussed with the media

 * Sources have discussed with the media evidence including video surveillance that support the charges of assault and the attempt to cover it up.



If this needs to be removed or modified, please explain. patsw (talk) 02:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Scientology controversy
The section has the title "controversy" without explaining what is the controversy or who the two sides are.

The section I think gives undue weight to this particular legislative action in the context of a biographical article. What about this merits the amount of text devoted to it? patsw (talk) 16:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's well sourced and well written, and it did receive quite a bit of secondary source coverage. I think the proper remedy here if you feel you are concerned about weight, is instead to expand the other parts of the article with material from WP:RS/WP:V sources. Cirt (talk) 16:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree on the well-sourced, and disagree on the well-written. Anytime one writes a "controversy" section, it behooves the editor to explain what is controversial and who finds it controversial.  The WP:BLP concern here is since HM denies he is a follower of scientology, there's a guilt by association here.  These city proclamations are a dime a dozen, they are inconsequential except to the recipient who puts them up on the wall of their office.
 * Expand the article? There's not much more to write about Monserrate.  He's been skillful politically in reaching the State Senate at the age of 40 with no record of accomplishing anything in six years on the City Council. patsw (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There was additional controversy here, I believe Monserrate's actions were criticized by Mayor Michael Bloomberg, and perhaps others. I'll do some research and add that for clarity. Cirt (talk) 00:53, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (Reply below is to Patsw's first message, delayed by edit conflict)
 * Having written that section, I agree that it seems large in proportion to the totality of the "career" section. But that is because the career section is miniscule and needs expanding. I don't generally write much on BLPs but I read the sources while researching the Downtown Medical article and saw that they were appropriate for this article as well. What merits the six sentences of coverage is that at least 14 media articles have been published on it.
 * If you look at Downtown Medical you'll see the context. Here we have a variety of New York public figures taking opposing views on a then-current issue. Although "controversy" is an overused word on WP, it's absolutely applicable here. Monserrate publicly opposed Mayor Bloomberg's statements about Downtown Medical, and in turn was strongly criticised by Peter Vallone, Jr.. Maybe it would help to put more of this context in this article? Is Patsw arguing for more or less text in this section? MartinPoulter (talk) 00:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Although medical experts questioned the church's detoxification regimen, Monserrate lauded Hubbard for developing a program "that can safely and effectively resolve the symptoms of toxic exposure." That has outraged Councilman Peter Vallone Jr. (D-Queens), chairman of the Public Safety Committee. "It's dangerous to confer legitimacy on a cult," Vallone said."
 * "Councilman Peter Vallone (D-Queens), chairman of the Public Safety Committee, questioned whether Monserrate was crossing the line between "cult and state."
 * "Among attendees at the high-profile event in Chelsea was "World Trade Center" actor Michael Pena, local councilors Joseph Addabbo and Hiram Monserrate,(...) Despite Mayor Bloomberg's denouncement of the program as "not science" on Wednesday, those present at the fundraiser were clearly happy to give their approval to the project, which saw Cruise personally thank guests for their attendance.
 * " "The reality is the program is separate and apart from the religion," Monserrate said. But fellow Councilman Peter Vallone Jr. said Monserrate's appearance was proof that Scientologists are behind the detox facility, where 9/11 workers are provided free treatments to remove what are described as toxins from their bodies"
 * MartinPoulter (talk) 01:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In addition to the 14 media stories I mention above, I've found this World Entertainment News Network piece, this brief mention from NY Daily News and, most importantly, this lengthy profile in the NY Times, which could be the basis for greatly expanding this biography. Does someone want to take on the addition of these sources to the article?
 * Re to Patsw: I am sure you are right that these proclamations are a dime a dozen. However, the proclamations we're talking about have been commented on extensively by the media, hence they are a notable feature of this politician's career. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Merely because something was (a) well-attributed and (b) has a motivated editor who wants to include the text doesn't mean that "scientology controversy", which I consider to be insignificant in the biography of the subject, should be in the article. I could be persuaded that this section meets the WP:DUE and WP:RECENT tests, and avoids WP:COATRACK (with respect to scientology), if there were 100-1000 character general biographical summaries of Monserrate elsewhere which gave the scientology controversy the same prominence proposed here. patsw (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I will work on expanding the other parts of this article. Cirt (talk) 19:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With respect, Patsw, no editor's opinion of the significance - not yours, not mine - is the standard for weight, nor is any single source: it's the totality of published sources that have to be considered. Note that we've found 17 sources for Monserrate's Scientology connection and there are 16 in the article for his Arrest, Indictment and Trial: are you arguing that that section is out of place as well? I share your concerns about the article becoming overladen with the Scientology material, which is why I've so far left out the material about Bloomberg and Vallone, which in turn is why you complained that it wasn't clear what the controversy is.
 * Oh, and thanks Cirt! The New York Times article I linked above has a useful overview of his political career. MartinPoulter (talk) 21:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I withdraw my objection to the inclusion of the scientology controversy in the article. patsw (talk) 14:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay sounds good. I will still try to work on expanding the other biographical info from independent reliable secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 14:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added some sources found in a newswire search and in the article on the leadership crisis. Plenty of news sources about his career can be found via this Google News timeline. MartinPoulter (talk) 12:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Court ruling upholds expulsion of New York Senator convicted of assault
Has some secondary sources cited, that could be used to update the article. (Also see prior Wikinews articles on the same subject.) Cirt (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Court ruling upholds expulsion of New York Senator convicted of assault

Sections
I separated out the "Expulsion and Special Election" as a new level 2 section. It was edited back into the existing level 2 section "Assault of Karla Giraldo". I make the case here for it to be new level 2 section:


 * The "assault" section has a criminal and personal context. This story is not over yet.  Monserrate is likely to have to time added to his sentence for refusing to comply with court orders.  I didn't add this to the article since it appeared as unattributed in the New York Post.




 * The "expulsion" section deals with the political consequences, and the story flows from the political calls for his resignation at the time of his arrest and later his expulsion. Something to add later is the appeal (to stop the special election) in federal court which was denied at the district level, that will happen on March 12. patsw (talk) 03:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * He was expelled, due to the assault conviction. Cirt (talk) 04:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * His expulsion was a political act and not a judicial act. patsw (talk) 14:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * His expulsion would not have happened, but for his conviction of assault. Cirt (talk) 14:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

No endorsements?
I did a check of the news search engines, and his official web site, it appears that Monserrate has no endorsements for the March 16 special election. If this is not the case, please add the endorsements to the article for some balance. patsw (talk) 01:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * See source, WNYC: "Monserrate has received no official endorsements" -- Cirt (talk) 01:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Things to watch
Will he actually pay his fine, do his community service, and avoid violating his probation?

Will he run for Peralta's now open seat in the New York State Assembly patsw (talk) 03:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * What about reportedly violated election laws on the day of the special election. -- Cirt (talk) 03:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that he lost, I think that is moot at this point. However, he may go forward on his threat to run in the 39th AD, or basically any open seat in Queens. Let's hope that Nydia M. Velázquez stays healthy. patsw (talk) 12:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

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