Talk:Hirt's Gardens

Hirt's Gardens should not be deleted. As one of the oldest horticultural establishments in Ohio, it has historical importance. I am adding that information (cited from the book Images of Strongsville) right now. Furthermore, Hirt's Gardens and the Hirt family have been involved with popular media ranging from CSI: New York to regional TV, radio. Hirt's Gardens is the topic of a book forthcoming in April (see the end of the article) and it is featured in the book Images of America: Strongsville by Bruce M. Courey. OliverSorge (talk) 23:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt, creator of the Hirt's Gardens wikipedia page

Improvements made
I've added material that establishes the significance of Hirt's Gardens. This info is at the beginning of the page. I also deleted references to eBay and Amazon. Under Further Reading, I've linked to two books that also establish historical significance. The book Images of America: Strongsville features Hirt's Gardens (then known as Hirt's Greenhouse) as a cornerstone of historical Strongsville, and the book Under Glass: The Girl with a Thousand Christmas Trees is ABOUT Hirt's Gardens. Please also note that there is footnoted research supporting much of this article. Also, the photos are original -- no copyright violations there. OliverSorge (talk) 00:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt

Also...
Please note that Hirt's Garden is a major provider of rare seeds and heirloom seeds, and that a similar business, Seeds of Change, has an uncontested Wikipedia page. If the Hirt's Gardens page is too detailed, please suggest what to delete, rather than deleting the entire page. OliverSorge (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt

More precedent for Hirt's Gardens page
Burpee Seeds is a similar company that has an uncontested Wikipedia page. Same for Park Seed Company. OliverSorge (talk) 00:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt

Notability
In order to qualify for an encyclopedia article, a company must be "notable". Please read WP:COMPANY, the relevant notability guideline. If Hirt's Gardens has been the subject of independent coverage in reliable sources, such as newspapers or magazines, please add that information to the article. Good luck. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Notability Established
I've footnoted the fact that sensitive plants from Hirt's Garden appeared in the season 5 premier of CSI: New York. The reference leads to a reliable independent source that supports my addition. Please note that this footnote and reference appeared in the original version of the article. OliverSorge (talk) 03:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt
 * That hardly establishes notability for the company. I urge you to read notability, WP:V, and WP:RS for help in establishing notability by using verifable, reliable sources.   ttonyb  (talk) 03:51, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


 * So WP:V says that verifiability is established through the work itself, the creator of the work, and the publisher. The footnote we're discussing leads to a publication that is a well-known horticultural trade magazine, and that article references Cleveland's major daily newspaper, The Plain Dealer. I am not sure how to make this more verifiable. Suggestions? OliverSorge (talk) 04:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt


 * Yes, but WP:COMPANY also states, "An organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources. " Significance takes two forms, first in the amount of coverage and secondly in the substance of the coverage.  Short articles about using plants on CSI are not significant.  Are there any articles written about the company that are more than short references to company. Unfortunately, passing references to the company are not significant.   ttonyb  (talk) 04:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


 * So, if I referenced the original Plain Dealer article (major newspaper) AND the Greenhouse Grower article (trade magazine) would that establish notability and save the page from deletion? OliverSorge (talk) 04:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt


 * Has the company won in significant awards?  ttonyb  (talk) 04:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC


 * Yes. Amazon Merchant Top-Seller sorts of things. Alan Hirt (owner) also won an Alumni of the Year award from Ohio State University. Would referencing that establish notability and save the page from deletion? OliverSorge (talk) 04:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt
 * Top seller does not really support the company as a whole and the owner winning an award is about the owner, not the company.
 * How about news paper articles specifically about the business and it's longevity?
 * I hate to say it, but there may not be enough to support the article. Sometimes as hard as we try and as significant as the company is to the people that own, work, and use it, sometimes the company is not ready for an article in Wikipedia.  I am not seeing anything to support notability.  Sorry...   ttonyb  (talk) 04:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Tony, I just added a footnote and reference to how Hirt's Gardens appears on Ohio State University's Horticulture and Crop Science Resource page. I understand what you're saying and I'm working hard to establish this notability for one of the oldest, largest, and uniquely recognized greenhouses in the region. Thank you for your suggestions. Does the OSU link help? OSU is quite a notable horticulture school OliverSorge (talk) 04:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt
 * I am afraid a link to the page is not significant. In case this does get deleted soon, do you have a copy of the article somewhere? I have created a copy of the article as it currently stands in User talk:OliverSorge/hirt.   ttonyb  (talk) 04:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)  ttonyb  (talk) 04:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I just added a footnote (it's #2, near the beginning) and it references an article that was all about how long Hirt's Gardens has been in business. OliverSorge (talk) 05:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt


 * Why doesn't the OSU link count as significant? As you can tell, I am honestly trying to learn how to make this page notable -- any suggestions on the OSU thing would help. In the horticulture world, OSU is top-notch reliability and significance. OliverSorge (talk) 05:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt

Hirt's Gardens has similar notability/significance to Burpee Seeds page
Burpee Seeds, like Hirt's Gardens, was started in 1915. Both pages clearly say this. Burpee Seeds is not being considered for deletion. Common sense says that Hirt's Gardens should not be deleted.

Burpee Seeds contains 2 references and 5 external links verifying parts of the company. Hirt's Gardens contains 3 references and 8 external references, including two books. Again, common sense says that Hirt's Gardens should not be deleted. They stand as peers to Burpee Seeds. OliverSorge (talk) 05:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt

Hirt's Gardens has MORE notability/significance than Park Seed Company
I've been asked to prove the notability/significance of Hirt's Gardens. I feel that I have more than adequately addressed the suggestions, especially when I compare the Hirt's Gardens page to the Park Seed Company page. Their page does not seem to have overwhelming notability. In comparison, Hirt's Gardens has a connection to CSI: New York, plus Ohio State University, plus two books featuring the business and handful of articles about the business. These attributes meet Wikipedia's guidelines. Please do not delete this page. OliverSorge (talk) 05:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Jen Hirt

Added references
I added references and reorganized them into a section about notable media coverage. Darlenemiddleton (talk) 15:45, 10 February 2010 (UTC)Darlene

Added sources, including from one national magazine
For those of us in the gardening world, Hirt's Gardens is go-to location. I've seen them mentioned in a few places, so I added them here. One was the Ohio historical society mention. Second, more importantly, is their appearance in Mother Earth News as one of the top 20 national sources of heirloom tomato seed. Darlenemiddleton (talk) 18:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)Darlene Middleton

Written like an advertisement
It should be a big red flag when Jen Hirt is the creator and major contributor by a large margin for the Hirt's Gardens article. Jen, please don't take this as a threat, but you may wish to consider that backing off from this article will actually make it better, and more encyclopedic. It would be a similar problem if someone wrote their own biography page.

That being said, there's absolutely no reason why there should be a list of types of plants offered by the company, or any other information that is not backed up by relevant sources. There's an obvious conflict of interest here, and the fact that there's a Burpee or Park's Seeds page has nothing to do with anything. I'll be taking a machete to this article in the near future if there is not a prompt effort to eliminate irrelevant product-pushing. Everything without established relevance must go, via WP:WEIGHT. — Mike : tlk  22:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above, this is a big old advertisement disguised as actual content.

I am one of many disgruntled customers whose plants arrived quickly but more than half dead (suggesting they were sent in poor condition) and got a disinterested or zero response from the company. Go look at gardenweb, Dave's Garden, and other reputable online gardeners' resources and see for yourself. Apparently no one at Hirt's answers the phone. My own email request for a partial replacement or refund on my new but mostly dead plant order was met with "oh this type of plant always looks like this" and then with "plant it and then if it doesn't survive we'll give you a refund." I'd planted the item in question before and had never seen (and would certainly have never bought) it in a 75% dead state. I'm not surprised to find this tremendously biased wikipedia page. Use this dealer at your own risk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.90.94 (talk) 02:12, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

This post is still written like an advertisement. Can we pare it back a bit, especially the "Notable Media Coverage" and Popular/Rare Plants/Seeds sections?Collin.Arneson (talk) 04:27, 15 March 2017 (UTC)