Talk:Hispano-Suiza 12Y

Built like a tank
Any truth to the story the T-34's engine was based on the 12Y? (I don't believe it...) Trekphiler 06:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"Vr-36" engine
According to the publication Československá letadla [I] (1918-1945) by Czech aviation author Václav Němeček (the 1983 edition) (chapter: Aircraft engines, propellers, weapons and other aircraft related industry: Engines Laurin and Klement, Škoda and Avia, p. 226): "[V-36 and Vr-36] was designation of licence production of Hispano-Suiza 12Nb and 12Nbr engine, and it was mostly used in Aero A.100 light bombers. [...] The HS 12Nbr was renamed in the Avia factory designation sequence, but following licence-produced Hispano engines kept their original French designations. The most important of them was HS 12Ydrs [...]"

(my translation from Czech original, omitted are technical parametres for the HS12Nb engine)

I see that the claim HS 12Ydrs=Vr-36 currently in the article is referenced to some or other book by Bill Gunston, but I reckon that wouldn't be the first fact Gunston got wrong in his career of aircraft related writing.--188.122.215.2 (talk) 14:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It may not be Gunston's error. I have the book cited but cannot find mention of the Vr.36. The cite gives no page number and the book has only a half-hearted index but, unless I've overlooked  it, the claim is not supported. Gunston does mention Klimov's variations in the USSR but his book packs a lot in a small space and often lacks detail. I've also had a look in Lage's book and have not yet spotted any mention.TSRL (talk) 15:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well - I have no acces to that book by Gunston, but 'lot in a small space and often lacks detail' - that looks like a typical Gunston to me. Isn't  there any info given either on Czechoslovakian inter-war aircraft engine production (if such thing is mentioned in it at all) or in the section on Hispano Suiza/HS12Y?--188.122.215.2 (talk) 18:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * With respect, I think you are expecting too much from a book of about 180 pages which attempts to cover all aircraft engines of the world produced over some 80 years. The whole Hispano-Suiza section, including pictures, is only 3 pages, so I don't think it's surprising to not to find any mention of production under licence, Russia apart, in the approximately 180 words on the 12Y. What is surprising is that the cite seems to be (unless I've missed something) not to support the text. Our problem, not Gunston's. Best,TSRL (talk) 19:18, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I meant no offence - I was just attempting to ask for more details, given the encyclopedia part in the source title which I'm not familiar with otherwise.
 * What I believe is more relevant to the present issue - as someone who have checked the source, are you quite willing to support removal of the Gunston quote as unsubstantiated by the reference given? Regards, --188.122.215.2 (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No offence taken! I agree the "encyclopedia" in the title is a bit misleading and maybe not Gunston's idea. His book is far from error free but it's a brave try and unique.  Always leaves me wanting more, of course.  Yes, indeed the article is the focus and I agree that that the Gunston cite cannot stand; though I'm puzzled  that the editor who inserted thought it was OK, I don't think I've missed anything and anyway he/she should have included a page number. Out with it! By the way, what was the V.30, do you know?TSRL (talk) 20:26, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Almost all except the final few editions of Gunston's encyclopaedia were written before the fall of the Berlin Wall and as Czechoslovakia was within the Eastern Bloc, he would have been the first to admit that information included in the encyclopaedia about engines from these countries was likely to be unreliable, there being little or no communication on such matters between East and West, and what information that did come out of the East was deemed in the West as quite likely to have been distorted or exaggerated for propaganda purposes as part of the Cold War. If is therefore not surprising that some of the information relating to such matters is likely to be 'wrong' in some editions of Gunston's books as he was only able to work with what information was available to him.


 * FYI, Gunston was Technical Editor of Flight International magazine for most of the 1960s and had written numerous books on aeronautical-related subjects, and was a well respected person widely acknowledged within the field.


 * BTW, unless the quoted Czech 1983 publication Československá letadla [I] (1918-1945) was also published and available in a translated English edition in the West, then Gunston is unlikely ever to have been able to use it as a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.246 (talk) 10:10, 4 October 2016 (UTC)