Talk:Historic Hotels of America/Archive 1

new hotel articles created
In process of developing this list-article, I've created many re-directs or otherwise established connections to many pre-existing articles. But I've been creating some: --Doncram (talk) 02:29, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hotel La Rose (create article with text copied from Santa Rosa, California article; credit due to authors there)
 * Napa River Inn (create article including text copied from Haunted Hotels, credit due to authors there)
 * The DeSoto (create article as a stub)
 * Cavallo Point (create article with text and sources copied from Architectural Resources Group, credit due to authors there)
 * Atherton Hotel at Oklahoma State University (create article as a stub)
 * Saint Paul Hotel (create article as a stub)
 * Crockett Hotel (create article as a stub)
 * Tulsa Club Hotel (create article as a stub)
 * Hotel Constance Pasadena (add)
 * Stonepine Estate (create article as a stub, incl. with text and source copied from Carmel Valley Village, California; credit due to editor(s) there)
 * Omni Bretton Arms Inn (add)
 * Grand Hotel (Point Clear, Alabama) (create article as a stub)
 * Admiral Hotel (Mobile, Alabama) (create article as a stub)
 * Pioneer Inn (add)
 * La Valencia Hotel (add)
 * Kings Courtyard Inn (create article as a stub)
 * Strater Hotel (create article as a stub)
 * I've linked what could be to the French articles. Thierry Caro (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

True or false reports of HHA association?
How verify whether a hotel is HHA-listed currently or in the past? I have now tried to go through all of the HHA's listings, by searching on each state within their current website. Searching there is a bit weird: So I am fairly confident, but not perfectly confident, that I have their entire current list.
 * searching on "South Carolina" yields all of the "North Carolina" ones too
 * searching on "West Virginia" yields all the "Virginia" ones on one page, then on page 2 of results is the single West Virginia one
 * if i recall correctly, searching in some states yielded hotels in adjacent states where state names were dissimilar, as if to help a person find one of the HHAs close enough by
 * if i recall correctly, it seemed there were some hotels which showed in the map view but not in searching, or the other way around
 * there was another weird result or two which i don't remember; also maybe some of the weirdnesses got resolved eventually

The List of Historic Hotels of America list-article created at time of MFD documents what hotels were then in Category:Historic Hotels of America. This is much smaller than current list, was clearly not complete. But of more concern is that it included a number of hotels which are not covered at the current HHA site. Were they HHA-listed in the past, but dropped out for their own reasons or were dropped by the National Trust? Or were they just mistakenly put into the category? (WikiBlame tool searches identify User:Thierry Caro as an editor who added the category to many of these hotels, usually or always without noting a specific source. Thierry Caro also added it for most or all of the other, verified ones.)  And this it is not a problem if the info is factual and just needs to be verified by a reliable source, right? Note that for U.S. NRHPs and NHLs we cover past, discontinued listings. We have complete documentation of when listed and delisted there, but not here, unfortunately: HHA is not required by anyone to continue to document past members.

The ones that were in the category which I can't verify are HHA-listed now are:
 * Stanley Hotel, Estes Park, Colorado, added in this 2018 edit, without specific evidence of HHA connection.
 * Montvale Hotel, Spokane, Washington, added by this diff, no other info.
 * Redick Tower, added to category in this diff
 * The Westin Portland Harborview, originally "The Eastland", Portland, Maine. Refused to let Eleanor Roosevelt stay there.  Any evidence that this is HHA?  It is different than Portland Regency, per google map diff.  HHA category was added by this diff without specific source.
 * The Sagamore, Bolton Neck, New York, added to category by this diff in Sept 2018
 * Hotel del Coronado, Coronado, California, is in List of Historic Hotels of America, but never had text "Historic Hotels of America". Category was removed by DannyS712 in this diff.  wikiblame didnt find, but it was this Sept 2018 diff that added it to category.
 * Hotel Blackhawk was actually clearly once documented to be member of HHA. It got mention of HHA, although garbled, in this 2010 diff put in by an IP editor, specifically: "[In e]arly 2010, Tim Heim, a veteran of the Quad City hospitality industry, was named Sales & Marketing Director and the hotel affiliated itself with Summit Hotels & Resorts Group (www.summithotels.com) and the National Register Historic Hotels of America network (www.historichotels.org). As 2010 advanced, the pace picked up."  That is clearly enough (for me) saying it was covered at the historichotels.org site (the HHA site).  By garbling i mean there is no such thing as "National Register Historic Hotels of America" exactly.  Hmm, wikiblame does not find when a category was added?  Or was it never in Category:Historic Hotels of America?  (then how would it get into List of Historic Hotels of America?) There was specific sourcing from 2014, removed in this edit in 2019 by User:Farragutful who noted it is no longer HHA-listed.  Searching on title in that source yields this January 2014 edit by an IP editor added HHA membership sourced to HHA specific site.  Not found by Wikiblame, but it was this Oct 2018 diff that added to category.  So it was in the category;  all the List of Historic Hotels in America ones were truly in the category.

I thought temporarily that This "news" piece on hospitalitynet.org from 23 October 2017 identifies 25 HHA hotels that were "haunted", a source titled "The Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 announced by Historic Hotels of America" included some not currently HHA-listed. It includes quotes from HHA's head. Is it accurate? I am really not sure; I could easily see a paid writer creating such a fluff piece having to pull together whatever he/she can, and not really being concerned about exactness of "historic hotel in America" vs. "one of the Historic Hotels of America". But also it is identified as a "Press release", so maybe it really was produced by HHA and would be reliable about the hotels being HHA-listed, I would think. Or, hmm, it was HHA-released but included some non-HHA members: " here is the Historic Hotels of America Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 along with some of America's best hotel ghost stories". Hmm, oh, i was mistaken. These are all HHA-listed.

Also, for TripAdviser and other sources that assert HHA membership for a given hotel, it could easily be the case that the info came from Wikipedia! Or that people just don't know the distinction "historic" vs. "listed on the National Register of Historic Places" vs. "in the Historic Hotels of America" program.

By the way there are lots of grand old historic hotels NOT included in the HHA.

--Doncram (talk) 17:52, 8 April 2020 (UTC) 20:53, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * All the ones I once added in the category were clearly on the website back then, for this is what I used. If they are not anymore, one may suppose that they are not listed anymore, for any possible reason. It's quite simple. I would just remove them from the category with no further mention of past affiliation, except if there is a third party mentioning that past elsewhere online or in print material. Thierry Caro (talk) 22:21, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you User:Thierry Caro for your clarification on how they did get into the category (correctly). And I should have said the list of those in the category has helped specifically in a number of cases, where there were discrepancies vs. what I found on the HHA pages, and then it turned out a hotel is actually a current HHA member and has an HHA page after all.   Like I mention further above, my process has been imperfect and I was only "pretty confident" i've got it right.  And still didn't, because I just figured out that another one, Fairmont San Francisco (which i had missed but was in the category), is in fact an HHA.  (I guess i should do more searching/checking for completeness, now that i am more familiar with the HHA system.) Thank you for doing all the categorizing back when you did; it really is helping now.
 * About ones where it is really verified they are not HHA, your advice seems reasonable. But the past HHA membership should still be noted here on the Talk page, to help confirm what went on in the future if/when someone arrives with a 2015 or whenever source stating their affiliation.  I do think that past members should be listed, at least where we can clearly document, like how we handle other historic registries.  They can be included in the main list with a color code or note about their status, or they could be relegated to a "former members" section at the bottom like NRHP editors have chosen to do in county list-articles of NRHP listings (mostly; in at least a few cases editors have just deleted the former ones, which is aggravating/undermines consistency). --Doncram (talk) 13:59, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Also, further, there is at least one more hotel affiliation category, the one for the NTHP's international historic hotels program, which IMO needs to be done up with a list-article. No one targeted its category for deletion i guess, but the category most likely is incomplete and there's no easy way to check, and there must be the same issues of explicit sourcing being needed, which would properly be addressed as here, in process of developing a list-article.  User:Theirry Caro, did you do that categorizing, too, and/or do you know what other affiliation programs should perhaps be done up? --Doncram (talk) 14:14, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

possible/likely move needed
Hmm, maybe a move is needed. I was just kind of jarred by an edit by User:Imzadi1979 dropping mention of the "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America" as if it is not a thing, and i reversed it. But maybe i have been all wrong, stemming from where i started, which was the AFD which ran from 10 March to 12 April about Grand Naniloa Hotel. This source which I found early in the AFD flatly states "A local icon and listed on the National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America, the Grand Naniloa offers guests a truly authentic Hawaiian experience", and then I started developing this list-article and learning about the program. And back in the AFD two other editors explained their votes mentioning this full exact term. But maybe that Hawaii.com is the only exact usage that way outside Wikipedia, and I do recognize that people do get terms like this wrong, from seeing mistakes related to National Register of Historic Places' historic districts.

Anyhow, i think I also went with the full formal "NRHHA" phrase, as Historic Hotels of America (which I thought was a shortcut name) was already a redirect to National Trust for Historic Preservation. If the shorter/informal name was better, i figured i could request a move over redirect later, depending on redirect's history. Hmm, now I see redirect was in place from 2011 though doesn't have substantial history, and I see that Imzadi has requested deletion there. Imzadi1979 were you just going to move this abruptly? I probably would have experienced that as very rude. --Doncram (talk) 13:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I work for a hotel once listed with the program, and the longer name does not exist. Some hotels may have erroneously used that name thinking it was analogous to the National Register of Historic Places, but that usage is just that, an error.  Imzadi 1979  →   13:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * U may, likely will, turn out to be right, but certainly wrong on process. More at user talk:Imzadi1979. --Doncram (talk) 14:46, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * there are just two webpages outside of Wikipedia that use the longer/incorrect name. (A third is a Wikipedia mirror site.) There are 333,000 results on Google that use the correct name, including https://www.historichotels.org,the webpage for the program itself. I think that makes it quite clear what the name is.  Imzadi 1979  →   15:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * My google searching did not find the usage in the Hawaii hotel-related article; i wonder what else is missed. And I'm not sure what the registry is named, as opposed to the program which has the registry.  I developed this article to be about the registry, and a list-article, as opposed to covering generalities about the program.  Description of program is covered or should be covered more in the section in National Trust for Historic Preservation that "Historic Hotels of America" linked to.  Not sure what will serve readers better, going to a short good description there, vs. arriving at possibly-overwhelming, too-detailed list-article here.  Do we know what the registry is called?  Or should it be a generic name using lower-case: "National register of the Historic Hotels of America" or "Historic Hotels of America register"; or should it be more clearly a list-article: "List of hotels in the Historic Hotels of America program" or "List of Historic Hotels of America hotels"?  I dunno.  Maybe i will be phoning the program's office to ask for copies of their current and past lists and their announcements of changes, and I could ask them what is the proper usage or what is their usage. --Doncram (talk) 21:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that there is not a separate name for the listing. HHA sent us directory books to put in the guest rooms, and the cover just used the name of the program with " Annual Directory" below. You can see last year's cover online. The National Trust does not use any special terminology for the list itself of HHA member properties. As for the ultimate form of the article, even a list needs a prose description/lead to introduce the listing. Take a look at Pure Michigan Byway, and you'll find a description and history of that program to introduce the list. I would imagine something similar here would work, so there wouldn't need to be separate articles on the program and listing of members.  Imzadi 1979  →   22:26, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As a side note, I'm moderately concerned that this page is being developed in mainspace in the condition it is in, complete with editing notes. Perhaps it should be moved to Draft:Historic Hotels of America until it is more polished and ready for readers?  Imzadi 1979  →   22:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Order in organization
Current ordering is jumbled, in some states is order presented in search results for state at HHA site, somewhat random otherwise. Some of the "founding" ones were put up front within state in the editing, maybe overstating importance of that.

Maybe this becomes one big table, perhaps organized by state then city, but sortable by state and by root-year. Or is it okay/good to have separate section for each state, although perhaps a table for each one sortable for the state but not possible to sort across states.

Either way, should order within state be by city, then alphabetical by name of hotel? Seems helpful to group the Los Angeles ones together. Or go alphabetically by hotel name. Or organize within state by root-year? Order within state matters less if have a sortable state-table.

Order of states was developed sort of west to east, has been converted to alphabetical order. Really no feasible other order of states.

What sets order on HHA site when search for "Florida" say, is it randomized (and different orders come up? making fair-er for ones that would otherwise always be less accessible on a second page of results). Or is it by member joining date. Not by root-year or hotel conversion year. --Doncram (talk) 13:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * take a look at Pure Michigan Byway, which is a Featured List. Using that model, or even National Scenic Byway, we could have a prose section or two as needed to introduce the concept of what HHA is and then one big table underneath to list each member hotel. If desired, we could even list the former members. Columns in the table could be Name, Year opened, City, State, Year initiated (or whatever term, Start year?, etc), Year left (End year?) and Notes. Then the table could be sortable, and each hotel could be listed in alphabetical order because readers could resort it as desired into any other order. Follow the table with the usual end matter (see also, references, external links, categories). Thoughts?  Imzadi 1979  → 

collecting past HHA members
[https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180111005587/en/20-Legendary-Historic-Hotels-Inducted-Historic-Hotels This 2017 BusinessWire article/press release reports news of 2017 HHA 20 new memberships, including a number that I think are not members any longer in 2020: Search BusinessWire for other such announcements? --Doncram (talk) 17:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Publick House Historic Inn* (1771) Sturbridge, Massachusetts
 * Inn at Willow Grove* (1778) Orange, Virginia
 * The Cotton Sail Hotel (1852) Savannah, Georgia
 * The Sherman (1852) Batesville, Indiana
 * Penn Wells Hotel (1869) Wellsboro, Pennsylvania
 * Antrim 1844* (1844) Taneytown, Maryland
 * Hotel del Coronado** (1888) Coronado, California
 * Hyatt at the Bellevue* (1904) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
 * DoubleTree by Hilton Hotel Utica (1912) Utica, New York
 * The Virginian Lynchburg, Curio Collection by Hilton (1913) Lynchburg, Virginia
 * Water’s Edge Resort and Spa (1920s) Westbrook, Connecticut
 * Fairmont Miramar Hotel & Bungalows, Santa Monica (1921) Santa Monica, California
 * Hotel Skyler Syracuse, Tapestry Collection by Hilton (1922) Syracuse, New York
 * Fairmont Olympic* (1924) Seattle, Washington
 * Sofitel Washington D.C. Lafayette Square (1925) Washington, D.C.
 * The Queensbury Hotel (1926) Glens Falls, New York (try Queensbury Hotel)
 * Hotel Saranac, Curio Collection by Hilton (1927) Saranac Lake, New York
 * The Statler (1956) Dallas, Texas
 * Alpenhof Lodge* (1965) Teton Village, Wyoming
 * The Graham Georgetown (1965) Washington, D.C. (try Graham Georgetown)


 * You can add Landmark Inn in Marquette, Michigan. The hotel opened in 1930 and was the first listing in Michigan when it gained membership in 1998. The hotel dropped its membership in late 2017.  Imzadi 1979  →   18:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Thierry Caro above suggests we include specific sourcing of such, when adding, but this gives basis for searching. --Doncram (talk) 00:06, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, this archived HHA page about it, from inline reference in the Landmark Inn. Okay, added Landmark Inn to this list. --Doncram (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Trying that search:
 * BusinessWire press release on 2019 _awards_, different than membership addition. Awards of Excellence.
 * The Historic Hotels of America 2020 Top 25 Historic Hotels for a Romantic Proposal Announced
 * lots more, too many announcements to wade thru right now. Try searching specific to 2016, 2015, etc. --Doncram (talk) 00:06, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * add their word "inducted" to search helps, yields 27 Iconic Historic Hotels Inducted into Historic Hotels of America in 2018 and more, in search upon '"Historic Hotels of America" businesswire inducted'. --Doncram (talk)
 * 37 Legendary Historic Hotels Inducted into Historic Hotels of America, about 2016 adds, announced Jan 2017
 * 22 new members inducted into Historic Hotels of America about 2015, announced Jan 2016
 * It seems hard to find any more of these annual announcements.--Doncram (talk) 02:47, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Unlike other recognition statuses, HHA membership has an annual fee. If a hotel decides they don't want to pay the fee, they just let the program know, mail back the plaque and remove the program logo/name from any marketing materials. The program will then drop the member from the website and omit them from the next annual directory. You're not likely to find press releases or news articles when a hotel drops their membership. You're more likely to find a local news article for a hotel changing flags (i.e. converting from a Holiday Inn to a Ramada). Last year's directory is reproduced online. If others are also available, that would give a time period when a property dropped out. Our hotel would have been in the 2017 directory, but it should have been dropped by the time the 2018 edition went to print.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

current December 2022 members
Perhaps we need to periodically record which are the current HHA members. In absence of good records from HHA themselves, or elsewhere, about additions and removals from the program (like the National Park Service does provide for places listed on the National Register of Historic Places). For what it's worth, the 272 current members per HHA website now as of December 15, 2022 are (and no one have a cow, this is a copy-paste, yes, but of a non-copyrightable list):
 * 1) 1754 House, Woodbury, Connecticut, United States
 * 2) 1886 Crescent Hotel & Spa, Eureka Springs, Arkansas, United States
 * 3) 21c Museum Hotel Chicago by MGallery, Chicago, Illinois, United States
 * 4) 21c Museum Hotel Cincinnati by MGallery, Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
 * 5) 21c Museum Hotel Durham by MGallery, Durham, North Carolina, United States
 * 6) 21c Museum Hotel Kansas City by MGallery, Kansas City, Missouri, United States
 * 7) 21c Museum Hotel Lexington by MGallery, Lexington, Kentucky, United States
 * 8) 21c Museum Hotel Louisville by MGallery, Louisville, Kentucky, United States
 * 9) 21c Museum Hotel Nashville by MGallery, Nashville, Tennessee, United States
 * 10) 21c Museum Hotel Oklahoma City by MGallery, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, United States
 * 11) Airlie, Warrenton, Virginia, United States
 * 12) Alpenhof Lodge, Teton Village, Wyoming, United States
 * 13) Amway Grand Plaza, Curio Collection by Hilton, Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States
 * 14) Antrim 1844, Taneytown, Maryland, United States
 * 15) Ariel Broadway Hotel, Lorain, Ohio, United States
 * 16) Ashland Springs Hotel, Ashland, Oregon, United States
 * 17) Basin Harbor, Vergennes, Vermont, United States
 * 18) Battle House Renaissance Mobile Hotel & Spa, Mobile, Alabama, United States
 * 19) Bear Mountain Inn, Bear Mountain, New York, United States
 * 20) Beekman Arms and Delamater Inn, Rhinebeck, New York, United States
 * 21) Belleview Inn, Belleair, Florida, United States
 * 22) Bellwether House, Savannah, Georgia, United States
 * 23) Benbow Inn, Garberville, California, United States
 * 24) Best Western Mariemont Inn, Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
 * 25) Bienville House, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
 * 26) Blue Moon Hotel, New York, New York, United States
 * 27) Boone Tavern Hotel of Berea College, Berea, Kentucky, United States
 * 28) Bright Angel Lodge & Cabins, Grand Canyon, Arizona, United States
 * 29) Capital Hotel, Little Rock, Arkansas, United States
 * 30) Caribbean Motel, Wildwood Crest, New Jersey, United States
 * 31) Casa Faena, Miami Beach, Florida, United States
 * 32) Casa Marina Hotel and Restaurant, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, United States
 * 33) Casa Monica Resort & Spa, St. Augustine, Florida, United States
 * 34) Castle Hill Resort and Spa, Cavendish, Vermont, United States
 * 35) Cavallo Point, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 36) Chatham Bars Inn, Chatham, Massachusetts, United States
 * 37) Chicago Silversmith Hotel & Suites, Chicago, Illinois, United States
 * 38) Claremont Club & Spa, A Fairmont Hotel, Berkeley, California, United States
 * 39) Colony Hotel & Cabana Club, Delray Beach, Florida, United States
 * 40) Concord's Colonial Inn, Concord, Massachusetts, United States
 * 41) Condado Vanderbilt Hotel, San Juan, Puerto Rico, United States
 * 42) Cork Factory Hotel, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 43) Crater Lake Lodge, White City, Oregon, United States
 * 44) Crowne Pointe Historic Inn, Provincetown, Massachusetts, United States
 * 45) Eagle Mountain House, Jackson, New Hampshire, United States
 * 46) Eagles Mere Inn, Eagles Mere, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 47) El Convento Hotel, San Juan, Puerto Rico, United States
 * 48) El Tovar Hotel, Grand Canyon, Arizona, United States
 * 49) Embassy Suites by Hilton Portland Downtown, Portland, Oregon, United States
 * 50) Fairmont Century Plaza, Los Angeles, California, United States
 * 51) Fairmont Copley Plaza, Boston, Massachusetts, United States
 * 52) Fairmont El San Juan Hote, San Juan, Puerto Rico, United States
 * 53) Fairmont Heritage Place, Ghirardelli Square, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 54) Fairmont Miramar Hotel & Bungalows, Santa Monica, California, United States
 * 55) Fairmont Olympic Hotel, Seattle, Washington, United States
 * 56) Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa, Sonoma, California, United States
 * 57) Francis Marion Hotel, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
 * 58) French Lick Springs Hotel, French Lick, Indiana, United States
 * 59) Fulton Lane Inn, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
 * 60) General Morgan Inn & Conference Center, Greeneville, Tennessee, United States
 * 61) Georgetown Inn, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 62) Glasbern, Fogelsville, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 63) Grand Hotel, Mackinac Island, Michigan, United States
 * 64) Grand Hotel Golf Resort & Spa, Point Clear, Alabama, United States
 * 65) Green Park Inn, Blowing Rock, North Carolina, United States
 * 66) Greyfield Inn, Cumberland Island, Georgia, United States
 * 67) Hacienda Del Sol Guest Ranch Resort, Tucson, Arizona, United States
 * 68) Hamilton Hotel, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 69) Hanover Inn Dartmouth, Hanover, New Hampshire, United States
 * 70) Hassayampa Inn, Prescott, Arizona, United States
 * 71) Hawthorne Hotel, Salem, Massachusetts, United States
 * 72) Hayes Mansion San Jose, Curio Collection by Hilton, San Jose, California, United States
 * 73) Haywood Park, Asheville, North Carolina, United States
 * 74) Hilton Baton Rouge Capitol Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States
 * 75) Hilton Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, United States
 * 76) Hilton Cincinnati Netherland Plaza, Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
 * 77) Hilton Fort Worth, Fort Worth, Texas, United States
 * 78) Hilton Hawaiian Village® Waikiki Beach Resort, Honolulu, Hawaii, United States
 * 79) Hilton Milwaukee City Center, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, United States
 * 80) Hilton New Orleans/St. Charles Avenue, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
 * 81) Hilton Santa Fe Historic Plaza, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
 * 82) Historic Americus Hotel, Allentown, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 83) Historic Hotel Bethlehem, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 84) Historic Inns of Annapolis, Annapolis, Maryland, United States
 * 85) Hotel 24 South, Staunton, Virginia, United States
 * 86) Hotel Boulderado, Boulder, Colorado, United States
 * 87) Hotel Brexton, Baltimore, Maryland, United States
 * 88) Hotel Captain Cook, Anchorage, Alaska, United States
 * 89) Hotel Casa del Mar, Santa Monica, California, United States
 * 90) Hotel Colorado, Glenwood Springs, Colorado, United States
 * 91) Hotel del Coronado, Coronado, California, United States
 * 92) HOTEL DU PONT (try Hotel du Pont Hotel duPont Hotel DuPont, Wilmington, Delaware, United States
 * 93) Hotel Indigo Atlanta Midtown, Atlanta, Georgia, United States
 * 94) Hotel Indigo St. Louis Downtown, St. Louis, Missouri, United States
 * 95) Hotel La Rose, Santa Rosa, California, United States
 * 96) Hotel Lombardy, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 97) Hotel Monteleone, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
 * 98) Hotel on Phillips, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, United States
 * 99) Hotel San Carlos, Phoenix, Arizona, United States
 * 100) Hotel Saranac, Curio Collection by Hilton, Saranac Lake, New York, United States
 * 101) Hotel Settles, Big Spring, Texas, United States
 * 102) Hotel Warner, West Chester, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 103) Inn at Perry Cabin, St. Michaels, Maryland, United States
 * 104) Inn at Price Tower, Bartlesville, Oklahoma, United States
 * 105) Inn at the Presidio, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 106) Inn at Willow Grove, Orange, Virginia, United States
 * 107) Inn on Boltwood, Amherst, Massachusetts, United States
 * 108) Inns of Aurora, Aurora, New York, United States
 * 109) InterContinental Chicago Magnificent Mile, Chicago, Illinois, United States
 * 110) InterContinental Mark Hopkins Hotel, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 111) Island House Hotel, Mackinac Island, Michigan, United States
 * 112) Jekyll Island Club Resort, Jekyll Island, Georgia, United States
 * 113) John Rutledge House Inn, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
 * 114) JW Marriott Essex House New York, New York, New York, United States
 * 115) JW Marriott Savannah Plant Riverside District, Savannah, Georgia, United States
 * 116) Kings Courtyard Inn, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
 * 117) La Concha Hotel & Spa, Key West, Florida, United States
 * 118) La Fonda, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
 * 119) La Posada de Santa Fe, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
 * 120) La Valencia Hotel, La Jolla/San Diego, California, United States
 * 121) Lake McDonald Lodge, Glacier National Park, Montana, United States
 * 122) Lake Yellowstone Hotel & Cabins, Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, United States
 * 123) Lancaster Arts Hotel, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 124) Le Pavillon Hotel, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
 * 125) Ledges Hotel, Hawley, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 126) Lord Baltimore Hotel, Baltimore, Maryland, United States
 * 127) Many Glacier Hotel, Babb, Montana, United States
 * 128) Marriott Syracuse Downtown, Syracuse, New York, United States
 * 129) Mauna Kea Beach Hotel, Kohala Coast, Hawaii, United States
 * 130) Mayflower Park Hotel, Seattle, Washington, United States
 * 131) Melrose Georgetown Hotel, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 132) Mizpah Hotel, Tonopah, Nevada, United States
 * 133) Moana Surfrider, A Westin Resort & Spa, Honolulu, Hawaii, United States
 * 134) Mohonk Mountain House, New Paltz, New York, United States
 * 135) Morris House Hotel, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 136) Morris Inn at Notre Dame, Notre Dame, Indiana, United States
 * 137) Mountain View Grand Resort & Spa, Whitefield, New Hampshire, United States
 * 138) Napa River Inn, Napa, California, United States
 * 139) Newport Beach Hotel & Suites, Middletown, Rhode Island, United States
 * 140) NOPSI New Orleans, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
 * 141) OHEKA CASTLE (try Oheka Castle), Huntington, New York, United States
 * 142) Ojai Valley Inn, Ojai, California, United States
 * 143) Old Faithful Inn, Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, United States
 * 144) Old Santa Fe Inn, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
 * 145) Omni Bedford Springs Resort & Spa, Bedford, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 146) Omni Berkshire Place, New York City, New York, New York, United States
 * 147) Omni Bretton Arms Inn, Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods, New Hampshire, United States
 * 148) Omni La Costa Resort & Spa, Carlsbad, California, United States
 * 149) Omni La Mansion del Rio, San Antonio, San Antonio, Texas, United States
 * 150) Omni Mount Washington Resort, Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods, New Hampshire, United States
 * 151) Omni Parker House, Boston, Boston, Massachusetts, United States
 * 152) Omni Royal Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
 * 153) Omni San Francisco Hotel, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 154) Omni Severin Hotel, Indianapolis, Indianapolis, Indiana, United States
 * 155) Omni Shoreham Hotel, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 156) Omni William Penn Hotel, Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 157) Palace Hotel, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 158) Palmer House®, A Hilton Hotel, Chicago, Illinois, United States
 * 159) Penn Wells Hotel, Wellsboro, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 160) Phantom Ranch, Grand Canyon, Arizona, United States
 * 161) Phoenix Park Hotel, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 162) Pinehurst Resort, Pinehurst, North Carolina, United States
 * 163) Pioneer Inn, Maui/Lahaina, Hawaii, United States
 * 164) Portland Regency Hotel & Spa, Portland, Maine, United States
 * 165) Publick House Historic Inn, Sturbridge, Massachusetts, United States
 * 166) Rancho Bernardo Inn, San Diego, California, United States
 * 167) Riggs Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 168) River Street Inn, Savannah, Georgia, United States
 * 169) Royal Palms Resort and Spa, Phoenix, Arizona, United States
 * 170) Shady Villa Hotel, Salado, Texas, United States
 * 171) Sheridan Inn, Sheridan, Wyoming, United States
 * 172) Silver Birches, Hawley, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 173) Skytop Lodge, Skytop, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 174) Sofia Hotel, San Diego, California, United States
 * 175) Sofitel Washington DC Lafayette Square, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 176) Southern Hotel, Covington, Louisiana, United States
 * 177) St. James Hotel MN, Red Wing, Minnesota, United States
 * 178) St. Louis Union Station Hotel, Curio Collection by Hilton, St. Louis, Missouri, United States
 * 179) Stonepine Estate, Carmel, California, United States
 * 180) Surf & Sand Resort, Laguna Beach, California, United States
 * 181) The Alisal Guest Ranch & Resort, Solvang, California, United States
 * 182) The American Club, Kohler, Wisconsin, United States
 * 183) The Andrus Hotel, Dillon, Montana, United States
 * 184) The Ashton Hotel, Fort Worth, Texas, United States
 * 185) The Atherton Hotel at Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, Oklahoma, United States
 * 186) The Blackburn Inn and Conference Center, Staunton, Virginia, United States
 * 187) The Broadmoor, Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States
 * 188) The Brown Hotel, Louisville, Kentucky, United States
 * 189) The Candler Hotel Atlanta, Curio Collection by Hilton, Atlanta, Georgia, United States
 * 190) The Capital Hilton, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 191) The Churchill Hotel Near Embassy Row, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 192) The Cliff House at Pikes Peak, Manitou Springs, Colorado, United States
 * 193) The Colony Hotel, Kennebunkport, Maine, United States
 * 194) The Crockett Hotel, San Antonio, Texas, United States
 * 195) The DeSoto, Savannah, Georgia, United States
 * 196) The Dewberry, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
 * 197) The Don CeSar, St. Pete Beach, Florida, United States
 * 198) The Drake Hotel, Chicago, Illinois, United States
 * 199) The Dunhill Hotel, Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
 * 200) The Edgewater, Madison, Wisconsin, United States
 * 201) The Emily Morgan San Antonio - a DoubleTree by Hilton Hotel, San Antonio, Texas, United States
 * 202) The Fairmont Hotel San Francisco, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 203) The Gasparilla Inn & Club, Boca Grande, Florida, United States
 * 204) The Georgian Terrace, Atlanta, Georgia, United States
 * 205) The Graham Georgetown, Tapestry Collection by Hilton, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 206) The Graylyn Estate, Winston-Salem, North Carolina, United States
 * 207) The Henley Park Hotel, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 208) The Hermitage Hotel, Nashville, Tennessee, United States
 * 209) The Historic Magnolia House, Greensboro, North Carolina, United States
 * 210) The Hollywood Roosevelt, Los Angeles, California, United States
 * 211) The Hotel Hershey®, Hershey, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 212) The Hotel Viking, Newport, Rhode Island, United States
 * 213) The Inn at Death Valley, Death Valley, California, United States
 * 214) The Inn at Leola Village, Est. 1867, Leola, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 215) The Inn at Montchanin Village, Montchanin, Delaware, United States
 * 216) The Jefferson Hotel, Richmond, Virginia, United States
 * 217) The Kendall Hotel, Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States
 * 218) The King and Prince Beach and Golf Resort, St. Simons Island, Georgia, United States
 * 219) The Lodge at Nemacolin, Farmington, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 220) The Lodge at the Presidio, San Francisco, California, United States
 * 221) The Lodge at Wakulla Springs, Wakulla Springs, Florida, United States
 * 222) The Mansion at Ocean Edge, Brewster, Massachusetts, United States
 * 223) The Martha Washington Hotel & Spa, Abingdon, Virginia, United States
 * 224) The Martinique New York on Broadway, Curio Collection by Hilton, New York, New York, United States
 * 225) The Mayflower Hotel, Autograph Collection, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 226) The Menger Hotel, San Antonio, Texas, United States
 * 227) The Middlebury Inn, Middlebury, Vermont, United States
 * 228) The Mimslyn Inn, Luray, Virginia, United States
 * 229) The Mission Inn Hotel & Spa, Riverside, California, United States
 * 230) The Morrison-Clark Inn, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 231) The National Hotel, Miami Beach, Florida, United States
 * 232) The Nittany Lion Inn of the Pennsylvania State University, State College, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 233) The Omni Grove Park Inn, Asheville, North Carolina, United States
 * 234) The Omni Homestead Resort, Hot Springs, Virginia, United States
 * 235) The Otesaga Hotel, Cooperstown, New York, United States
 * 236) The Peabody Memphis, Memphis, Tennessee, United States
 * 237) The Peregrine Omaha Downtown, Curio Collection by Hilton, Omaha, Nebraska, United States
 * 238) The Pfister Hotel, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, United States
 * 239) The Plaza, New York, New York, United States
 * 240) The Queensbury Hotel, Glens Falls, New York, United States
 * 241) The Raphael Hotel, Kansas City, Missouri, United States
 * 242) The Red Lion Inn, Stockbridge, Massachusetts, United States
 * 243) The Redbury New York, New York, New York, United States
 * 244) The Royal Hawaiian, A Luxury Collection Resort, Honolulu, Hawaii, United States
 * 245) The Sagamore Resort, Bolton Landing, New York, United States
 * 246) The Saint Paul Hotel, St. Paul, Minnesota, United States
 * 247) The Savoy Hotel & Beach Club, Miami Beach, Florida, United States
 * 248) The Sayre Mansion, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 249) The Settlers Inn at Bingham Park, Hawley, Pennsylvania, United States
 * 250) The Skirvin Hilton Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, United States
 * 251) The Statler, Dallas, Texas, United States
 * 252) The Strater Hotel, Durango, Colorado, United States
 * 253) The Union Station Nashville Yards, Nashville, Tennessee, United States
 * 254) The Vinoy Renaissance St. Petersburg Resort & Golf Club, St. Petersburg, Florida, United States
 * 255) The Virginian Lynchburg, Curio Collection by Hilton, Lynchburg, Virginia, United States
 * 256) The Westin Poinsett, Greenville, South Carolina, United States
 * 257) The Whitehall, Houston, Texas, United States
 * 258) The Wigwam, Litchfield Park, Arizona, United States
 * 259) The Willard InterContinental, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
 * 260) The Wort Hotel, Jackson, Wyoming, United States
 * 261) Tubac Golf Resort and Spa, Tubac, Arizona, United States
 * 262) Union League Club of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, United States
 * 263) Water's Edge Resort and Spa, Westbrook, Connecticut, United States
 * 264) Wentworth by the Sea Marriott Hotel & Spa, New Castle, New Hampshire, United States
 * 265) Wentworth Mansion, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
 * 266) West Baden Springs Hotel, West Baden Springs, Indiana, United States
 * 267) White Stallion Ranch, Tucson, Arizona, United States
 * 268) Williamsburg Inn, Williamsburg, Virginia, United States
 * 269) Williamsburg Lodge, Autograph Collection, and Colonial Houses, Williamsburg, Virginia, United States
 * 270) Woodstock Inn & Resort, Woodstock, Vermont, United States
 * 271) XV Beacon, Boston, Massachusetts, United States
 * 272) Zion Lodge, Springdale, Utah, United States

HHA notability and issues of promotion
Don't want to be too promotional. For one thing, if very promotional, undermines argument of significance of HHA listing as an indicator of importance. This started with a Hawaii hotel AFD where HHA mention was considered and questioned as an indicator of something. On the other hand, the HHA listing _seems_ important, in that for the most part when go to start an article, it seems the hotel is significant, would meet GNG. Similar issue to NRHP-listing, where fact of NRHP eligibility assessment seems to be a significant factor in assessing notability of place, beyond the actual history or architecture that justified the listing, so there is some circularity. For HHAs, is it clear or not that all members should be expected to be Wikipedia-notable. Note combo articles, sometimes a possibility for similar NRHPs, seem not possible here, as hotels are scattered and unrelated.

Although my own contributions to this list-article have quoted obviously promotional statements, and the whole nature of the list-article is arguably promotional, I am aware of the need for better balance at least with respect to current version (april 15) of list-article. What can be done? Other notes/comments welcome. --Doncram (talk) 13:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Create general/critical Wikipedia coverage about hotel affiliation groups, which are by their nature promotional. There is Category:Hotel affiliation groups but no general article or discussion.  Is "hotel affiliation group" the right term.  What is said in academic marketing literature?
 * Characterize this hotel affiliation group as one, obviously difficult when have no perspective. Is this relatively new or old or innovative or different, and how?  Effective/growing/subject of few or a lot of complaints?
 * Downgrade recognition of "founding" hotels. List-article started with mention of the 32 founding hotels, buying into HHA schtick, but then it turns out can only easily list fewer, apparently because some have quit or been dropped.  Listing these up front is over-stating their importance?  Or are these different, e.g. perhaps visionary/innovative in joining up in a cooperative way?  More "historical" themselves, or more self-aware of value of "historic marketing"?  And then the founding ones have been repeated in each of the state lists below, plus being recognized there again as being founding ones.  Maybe just an asterisk or common footnote is all that is appropriate.
 * Year-dates: Issue of presentation/explanation at least.  Dates given are often/usually NOT when hotel was opened.  Should there be dual dates: earliest year _something_ was built vs. year hotel opened.  Many have obviously non-historic expansions.  Or should go with date of hotel opening?  Call earlier date a historical roots date or something like that?  HHA usage in specific hotel's "overview" pages: "dates back to 1913" for one.  Having some year-date, probably for a sortable column, is probably needed for this list-article, to give readers perspective about ones in colonial houses vs. Victorian hotels of 1890s vs. Art Deco 1920s etc.  Ability to sort to put similar-date ones together would help.
 * Need to edit out the direct, too-promotional quotes that were pasted in, usually for convenience in identifying some key factoids that should be stated differently.
 * Don't yet have blurbs/descriptions for many, but these need to be objective-ish. Focus on the hotel conversion?  Or original building story?
 * I wouldn't worry about being "promotional", per se. We have lists on scenic byway classifications, so as long as the language is NPOV, you're fine. I mean Pure Michigan Byway discusses historic/recreational/scenic highway classifications, and even the title repeats the state's tourism campaign name. If we can do that and still keep it a Featured List, this topic is fine.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: a few of the linked articles have been created by me, over previous deletions where previously paid editors or others had unduly promoted or used copyrighted material or otherwise were bad. For example Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa just created by me, where previous article had been deleted 25 January 2018, with edit summary:  "User:Athaenara deleted page Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion: paid editing, client Fairmont Hotels, more at Sockpuppet investigations/Barbequeue)." --Doncram (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 14 April 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 19:05, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America → Historic Hotels of America – The current name of this page is demonstrably incorrect. The name of the program by the National Trust for Historic Preservation is just "Historic Hotels of America". This can be proven by just looking at the program's webpage at https://www.historichotels.org. There is no "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America". Additionally, there are 333,000 Google search results with the correct name, and just three of the other after filtering out Wikipedia, and one of those three is a Wikipedia mirror page. And if those reasons are still not sufficient, I work for a hotel that participated in the program and can personally verify what the plaque in our lobby or the logo on my business cards gave for the program name.  Imzadi 1979  →   18:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 17:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, and "robin"-swap in implementation, as suggested below, would be fine/good. [Was "Oppose move", at least currently], as proper name for this list-article is not yet sorted out.  I created it just recently, have been developing it with huge "Under Construction" sign in place;  it is very incomplete.  Like I said in the above section, before seeing this section was opened, I am not sure what this should be called.  I'd prefer not to have this RM right now, i.e. to have it closed now, while I am still developing the list article and learning about the program and the registry.  The program is pretty clearly called "Historic Hotels of America";  it is not clear what the registry, subject of this list-article, is called.  I may be in direct contact, after I develop more, with the program, and would ask about their usage for the registry.  Also maybe it would be better to label this clearly as the list-article, "List of Historic Hotels of America-affiliated hotels" or similar (see other suggestions in above discussion section).
 * The requesting editor and I got off on wrong foot when they came in with repeated edits changing the lede, and they initiated a speedy deletion request and it turned out they were just going to move it, without discussion despite probable disagreement. I don't "own" this list-article but have done almost all the work developing it since starting it recently, with hundreds of edits in the list-article and in linked hotel pages, many of them new.  This feels to me rude or even bullying, for an editor not involved in the constructive development to be avoiding discussion, forcing change by edit warring in the lede, and intending to move unilaterally.  This now is a discussion, yes, but I'd rather not be forced to finish figuring out the naming issues immediately, before I am anywhere near done developing. There is no urgency.  Maybe I should move this to User or Draft space while in development, if having it in mainspace is causing issue or entitling an editor or two to force stuff upon it. --Doncram (talk) 22:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Changed to "Support". Thanks whoever let this run for a bit.  With further development, i do see that the "National Registry" usage doesn't  show up anywhere else than where i happened, unluckily, to start from.  And I guess Imzadi1979's point that this article can provide both the overview of the HHA and the list, is okay.  I mean, it is currently mainly just the list, and it would help if more proper discussion of the program and its organization were developed up top, but I am not about to develop a separate article about that.  This RM is okay to close; implementing it requires admin-type capability to move this over redirect existing at "Historic Hotels of America" currently (which has a few edits/changes in its edit history, but nothing worth preserving). --Doncram (talk) 18:29, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nom - as a WP:ROBIN swap per WP:R. Narky Blert (talk) 12:39, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support. The words "national registry" don't need to be here, since this is independent of the National Registry of Historic Places. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 20:23, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment -- all in agreement here, ready to be closed. wp:robin approach in implementation, suggested by User:Narky Blert, seems fine. --Doncram (talk) 08:26, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Admin Noticeboard Incident going on instead of discussing here?
There is Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents going on, opened as an ANI proceeding against me in particular. It is very unpleasant to be in the target-hairs there, and kind of difficult and time-consuming to construct a response. Anyhow, there I suggest that any editing issues shoulda been brought up here, but no one has done so. Should the commenters there be pinged and invited to come here, I wonder. --Doncram (talk) 02:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Let me help you... Kleuske (talk) 15:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

undiscussed move to draft, and return
An editor unilaterally moved this to Draft space, instead of discussing issues here, and I have now returned it to mainspace. The move broke about 1000 incoming links. That editor opened an ANI proceeding, instead, where there is I think no disagreement about the validity of this topic. And there is no disagreement about some desired changes. There was/is no consensus that a list-article, especially one with a big "Under Construction" template upon it, needs to be perfect. If you have an issue, please use normal Wikipedia processes, including by discussing here first. --Doncram (talk) 01:01, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, when it had those notes to yourself in the main article, it probably belonged in Draft. Alternatively, the notes could have been on the talk page.  I know it is easier to have the notes to self in the article, but that is probably a problem.  --User:Bubba73, 01:08, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and as Bubba73 saw since, i was in process already and then finished addressing all the stray bits, deleting those already resolved and moving notes to what is a new section below here. Yes, if it is raised as a problem, it needs to be addressed.  Had been questioned already here, but no urgency attached, but no raising done by ANI opener, which was wrong by Wikipedia values and processes IMHO.  Thanks. --Doncram (talk) 07:49, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

notes for HHA research
Perhaps by interview/direct call to program, if can't be resolved by research of published news articles, etc.:


 * What are financial ties for National Trust for Historic Preservation?
 * Is this addressed in NTHP's IRS 990 reporting (required if they are a 501c3 nonprofit) or other NTHP reporting?
 * There is explicit statement about booking fees through their website; how much per transaction and in total.
 * There is explicit coverage about $3.00 per night plus another $3.00 by some matching program, back in 1991, going towards historic preservation efforts locally/nationally, in this clipping provided by User:Cbl62 from Charlotte Observer North Carolina paper about Dunhill Hotel. Not just pennies. --Doncram (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What other ties (membership initiation or annual fees, donations, other payments of any kind)?
 * '''Imzadi1979 speaks in another discussion section about the annual membership fee, sort of as if that is more significant than the per-night booking fee, but I have not seen any dollar figure ever. --Doncram (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * At the time our property was an HHA member, I wasn't in my current position to know as many operational details. Essentially, HHA's website acts as a travel agent, so the program would assess commissions on the bookings made through its website. The site also offers discounted rates to NTHP members and employees of HHA member properties. The industry standard for travel agent commissions is 10%, although online travel agents like Expedia or Booking.com can assess higher commissions in the neighborhood of 15–18%. I recall hearing that our annual membership fee was in the neighborhood of $5,000, but again I can't confirm that. I can't speak with any authority to say that such a number is a flat rate; many franchise fees with Marriott/Hilton/etc. are based on the number of rooms/size of the property or based on a percentage of total revenue.  Imzadi 1979  →   13:53, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Basically want to report openly on the financial ties, as the ties can be viewed as slanting NTHP professional assessment of NRHP eligibility and other aspects of historic integrity.
 * Besides financial reasons, what is NTHP's interest in this, and what is its perspective on what it has accomplished?
 * Perhaps about channeling travelers to historic rather than non-historic hotels, maybe quantification in occupancy rates, and possible effects on the travelers (motivating or allowing them to appreciate history) and the historic hotels (supporting them, changing economics for them, having effect on their survival)? What has actually been studied about effects?
 * Usage about the registry, how it is termed by them internally and externally, and what do they think usage should be (though not controlling wikipedia obviously). What is most common usage?


 * Data requests:
 * Is there a database or spreadsheet that could just be shared.
 * Current complete list (to check against current article, constructed as best can be done so far, maybe imperfectly)
 * Annual or other announcements of members added
 * What reporting of members dropping.
 * What causes dropping? Withdrawal by member to avoid fees, or what reason by member?  Does HHA act on complaints or what, towards reassessing historic integrity and booting them for not meeting standards?  How does booting process work.  What other exits are possible.

--Doncram (talk) 23:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Draftified HHA articles
The list of articles that I draftified in accordance with this discussion is currently sitting in my personal sandbox. To get it out of there—and ideally to a more prominent and useful location—I've thought of creating a subpage of this talk page to hold it. Would anyone have any objection to that? Deor (talk) 16:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No objection. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 17:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Since it's been seven days with no further discussion, I've gone ahead and moved the list. It can now be found at Talk:Historic Hotels of America/Draft articles. Deor (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * OK, I'm looking forward to some of them making it into mainspace. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 19:24, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

more Maryland ones?
Historic Inns of Annapolis gained assertion that "Other Historical Hotels in America" included: Check these out, and add to list and to Category:Historic Hotels of America? --Doncram (talk) 11:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Mary Prentiss Inn (bluelink)
 * Basin Harbor Club (redlink)
 * DesBarres Manor Inn (redlink)

Previously existing category for Historic Hotels of America
It was puzzling to me that I was coming across numerous hotel articles having standardized statement how they are Historic Hotels of America, but there was no corresponding category linking them. There should be Category:Historic Hotels of America (currently a redlink). Now I further come across List of Historic Hotels of America, which was created by User:DannyS712, apparently as part of a CFD process, and they are kindly willing to defer to this new list which I was trying to make more substantial, i.e. it is okay by them for the List of Historic Hotels of America to be simply redirected (in this exchange, thanks!).

I was actually expecting to go create Category:Historic Hotels of America by visiting all the articles, after completing this list. But that category, exactly, was deleted by decision of the CFD, which was Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 19. Which I think was the wrong decision. User:Thierry Caro was exactly right in that discussion, IMHO, objecting because the facts of the matter hadn't been understood by others (my summary). Including that Thierry pointed to Category:The Leading Hotels of the World as an example corresponding exactly to The Leading Hotels of the World article. Also I don't get the outcome "make a list of them, but then delete the category", because by wp:CLNT it is logical to immediately recreate the category, but that guidance was not addressed.

Now, anyhow, maybe the facts are clearer, in this new article already, which I have been building out to list all HHA members, and I have been creating articles for all of the missing ones. Because they all seem pretty clearly Wikipedia-notable to me. Maybe if there had been an explicit list-article of them all before the CFD, it would have gone differently, or not started at all? Historic Hotels of America is, at least now, a redirect to a short section in the National Trust for Historic Preservation article. The list of them all needs to be separate from that article.

Before I recreate the category, I don't want to run a new CFD if I don't have to, am not exactly sure what is absolutely required. User:Magnolia677 made the nomination for deletion of the category. And User:Good Olfactory closed it with decision "listify then delete the category". To Magnolia677 and GoodOlfactory and DannyS712, can you please give me guidance, i.e. give me permission, basically, to proceed? I am willing to open a new CFD if I do have to, but I would rather not be confrontational towards the other editors who I presume would have to be notified. In general, after an AFD has deleted an article, any editor is free to recreate it, though hopefully they should have more sources or whatever than were in the original article (if they have a copy of that), or at least they should be aware of the AFD's criticisms of it. I am less familiar with process after a CFD has deleted a category. I think it should be the same way, basically, and here I am aware of the previous criticisms and I am a pretty well-informed editor about lists of historic sites and corresponding categories so my judgment is not naive, and I believe this new list-article is better establishing the significance of the topic, and therefore establishing also the appropriateness of the corresponding category.

Sure, there exists Category:Historic hotels in the United States but that is simply a different thing. In the CFD someone else pointed to Category:Hotels by time, which has subcategories of hotels created by century, decade, year, but IMHO that is also irrelevant. The Historic Hotels of America are different because they are in effect certified by a worthy and respectable organization as having historic significance (equivalent to being NRHP-listed, if they are not in fact NRHP-listed) and as retaining historic authenticity now. Sure, there is a promotional tie-in involved, in that the NTHP gets some amount of money (maybe just pennies) for reservations made through the HHA webpages, but IMHO there is no way that blinds them or turn them into idiots. Again, I can indeed have a CFD if necessary but I would not enjoy having to be in-your-face disagreeing with others, maybe including some who might have had previous disagreements, if it is simply not necessary. By the way, some of those others may have already received some notice about this general topic area, by my having given notices at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hawaii and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places. --Doncram (talk) 23:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The category exists in five other languages, as seen on . The French one has 150 articles so far, which I guess is a good start. Thierry Caro (talk) 00:15, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Thierry, very much, for that info! Interesting to me, there is an article in FR wp, fr:The Mimslyn Inn (or |here), though The Mimslyn Inn is a redlink, has no article in EN wp, though the building is mentioned (barely) in Luray Downtown Historic District. --Doncram (talk) 01:44, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Also BTW there does continue to exist Category:Historic Hotels of America" at Commons which has 120 hotel-specific subcategories! It is itself within "Category:Hotel affiliation groups" there, which also exists here in EN wp (Category:Hotel affiliation groups). --Doncram (talk) 01:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * One of the reasons I proposed the merge in 2018 was because the category was added indiscriminately to articles with no mention of "Historic Hotel of America" in the body of the article. User:Doncram makes an excellent point; I support re-creating the category. Magnolia677 (talk) 07:56, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: besides Thierry, User:Aplusjimages was another editor creating some articles on HHA hotels (see: Special:Contributions/Aplusjimages), back in 2006. Maybe discouraged by AFD that deleted one? --Doncram (talk) 16:45, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Hey Thierry Caro, FYI, I've gone on and recreated the Category:Historic Hotels of America. Thank you for creating it and populating it originally. It never shoulda been deleted. Now I think it is solid, very solid, with 216 member articles, and ain't nobody gonna ruin it ag'in. :) --Doncram (talk) 02:03, 18 January 2022 (UTC)